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Is Putin "in another world"

Is Putin "in another world" as Angela Merkel of Germany claims?

  • yes: he thinks he is Peter the Great -clearly delusional

    Votes: 3 10.0%
  • yes; thinks he can play with the world without real consequences

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • no: he is playing 'realpolitik' ; thoughtful gambits

    Votes: 17 56.7%
  • no: he does what he wants, without any consequences

    Votes: 5 16.7%

  • Total voters
    30

anatta

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The Russian occupation of Crimea has challenged Mr. Obama as has no other international crisis, and at its heart, the advice seemed to pose the same question: Is Mr. Obama tough enough to take on the former K.G.B. colonel in the Kremlin? It is no easy task
. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said.
“In another world,” she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/w...ks-to-rein-in-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0
 
just for fun. reading Merkle's comments
 
There's no doubt Obama lives in another world. Mostly his own mind.
 
just for fun. reading Merkle's comments

Yeah... though the NyTimes is hardly a good source of info in regards to this event or Putin. I didn't see any coverage that they made on the event that left me thinking they actually understand what's happening. I suggest spiegel.de, reuters, bbc, deutschewelle or even cnn to some degree.

As to Putin... while he does use the Church in Russia to gain political support, he isn't particularly religious. You don't see him invoking God or Christianity in his political statements, at least not nearly as much as, say, american politicians do. He just defends Church interests and in return, the Church supports him, or whoever is in power.

He may be a bit out of touch with reality, but he is still in touch enough to understand how far he can push. And Crimea is an easy push because Ukraine is a push-over. And I am fairly distressed... and angry and discouraged over the recent events, but I don't think Putin is a madman. I don't make that mistake.

Fallen made a good argument some time ago and I will reinvoke it. He said that Putin is trying to make a new "glue" for Russia to bind the country and the people together. And I understand what he says by that. After nearly a century of communism and a tremedous loss in both prestige... and some troubles early on with Chechnya, there are identity problems as to what it means to be Russian and what the country should be going for. So he's doing what he can do to create that new glue, that new identity to bind people together.

But as I also said... even if Russian identity is now a bit "shaky" it's still a lot more identifiable than to what being "ukrainian" means... because Ukrainians have been under the tsarist boot for centuries than under communism which was quite brutal... and even after 1989 they were basically a sattelite...

I don't know if I can fully express what this is, in all it's complexity, without filling a wall text. It's a common problem in Eastern Europe. Communism tried to create the "new man", a new human being that is void of greed or anything that is considered " capitalist desires" and the re-education programs were inhumane, because the "new man" that communism tried to create was actually, not human at all. So you have half of Europe under half a century of communism and Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and other nations under communism for almost a century. It's hard to imagine this if you're say, an american. The identity of "american" and what it means was NEVER under attack by external forces. It was never repressed by someone else and tried to be replaced with whatever suited that more powerful entity. Whatever changes happened in what "american" is, happened because americans decided that.
 
To quote on of my favorite movies, "Russians son, don't take a dump without a plan."

He's got a plan, he's picked his moment not by mistake or situations but because he's planned this for a long time, and will now execute that plan. He's smart, calculating and a strong leader - if he wants Ukraine and Crimea he will be allowed to take them - no one is going to step in front of him and block his plan. The only thing the rest of the world can do is try and implement economic sanctions and isolate Russia effectively bringing back the cold war.

To the US President: The 1980's are on the phone and guess what they want to talk about? It's not al-qaeda... :lamo

Obama: The 1980s Called, They Want Their Policy Back - DailyFinance
 
Yeah... though the NyTimes is hardly a good source of info in regards to this event or Putin. I didn't see any coverage that they made on the event that left me thinking they actually understand what's happening. I suggest spiegel.de, reuters, bbc, deutschewelle or even cnn to some degree.

As to Putin... while he does use the Church in Russia to gain political support, he isn't particularly religious. You don't see him invoking God or Christianity in his political statements, at least not nearly as much as, say, american politicians do. He just defends Church interests and in return, the Church supports him, or whoever is in power.

He may be a bit out of touch with reality, but he is still in touch enough to understand how far he can push. And Crimea is an easy push because Ukraine is a push-over. And I am fairly distressed... and angry and discouraged over the recent events, but I don't think Putin is a madman. I don't make that mistake.

Fallen made a good argument some time ago and I will reinvoke it. He said that Putin is trying to make a new "glue" for Russia to bind the country and the people together. And I understand what he says by that. After nearly a century of communism and a tremedous loss in both prestige... and some troubles early on with Chechnya, there are identity problems as to what it means to be Russian and what the country should be going for. So he's doing what he can do to create that new glue, that new identity to bind people together.

But as I also said... even if Russian identity is now a bit "shaky" it's still a lot more identifiable than to what being "ukrainian" means... because Ukrainians have been under the tsarist boot for centuries than under communism which was quite brutal... and even after 1989 they were basically a sattelite...

I don't know if I can fully express what this is, in all it's complexity, without filling a wall text. It's a common problem in Eastern Europe. Communism tried to create the "new man", a new human being that is void of greed or anything that is considered " capitalist desires" and the re-education programs were inhumane, because the "new man" that communism tried to create was actually, not human at all. So you have half of Europe under half a century of communism and Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and other nations under communism for almost a century. It's hard to imagine this if you're say, an american. The identity of "american" and what it means was NEVER under attack by external forces. It was never repressed by someone else and tried to be replaced with whatever suited that more powerful entity. Whatever changes happened in what "american" is, happened because americans decided that.
thanks, as usual. Very detailed, very helpful. Always worth reading your posts. Yes the NYT's is much -ends to be an apologist for Obama.
There was a part in theer about Afghanistan " Obama ending the war - but with drone strikes and his surge", I found paradoxical..might just be me, don't want to go off on a tangent

anyways. Since I very much respect your opinion, I also read "the Baltic States are next". Do you the Baltic states are in any danger?
 
The Russian occupation of Crimea has challenged Mr. Obama as has no other international crisis, and at its heart, the advice seemed to pose the same question: Is Mr. Obama tough enough to take on the former K.G.B. colonel in the Kremlin? It is no easy task
. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said.
“In another world,” she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/w...ks-to-rein-in-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0




Mrs Merkel is a very intelligent lady, but on this one, she's wrong.

Who is going to kick the Russians out of the Ukraine? Any ideas on that?

The Russians have more legitimate reasons to be in the Ukraine than the USA had to invade Iraq.

Putin is in this world and he knows what he's doing.
 
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I didn't vote, because non of the options is right, they are not even serious.
Last week's survey shows that 69% Russians support Putin, if you were in his position, you would do the same thing unless you think yourself "the world leader" instead of Russian leader, or a coward president.
The Russians prefer to choose a strong leader than a politically correct one.
 
thanks, as usual. Very detailed, very helpful. Always worth reading your posts. Yes the NYT's is much -ends to be an apologist for Obama.
There was a part in theer about Afghanistan " Obama ending the war - but with drone strikes and his surge", I found paradoxical..might just be me, don't want to go off on a tangent

anyways. Since I very much respect your opinion, I also read "the Baltic States are next". Do you the Baltic states are in any danger?

No, I don't.

There is no Ribbentrop-Molotov pact this time around so Putin won't be doing a, ehm, "baltic mutual assistance treaty" especially since they're all part of the EU.

But you know,until 4 days ago I didn't believe Putin would send troops in Crimea, so I was wrong... I still don't believe Putin will invade eastern Ukraine and take over 3-4 of the major Oblasts like Khargiv or Donestks or Luhanska who are majority Russians(in 2 of those you already have pro-Russian supporters storm the public buildings and putting Russian flags up there, basically very similar to what happened in Ukriane before the Russians went in)... but i may be wrong. Khargiv is one of the more economically powerful regions in Ukraine, I think 3rd or 4th.

But no to the Baltic invasion and a possibly-but-not-really on an invasion in Eastern Ukraine.
 
Mrs Merkel is a very intelligent lady, but on this one, she's wrong.

Who is going to kick the Russians out of the Ukraine? Any ideas on that?

The Russians have more legitimate reasons to be in the Ukraine than the USA had to invade Iraq.

Putin is in this world and he knows what he's doing.

Well... even if they had no legitimate reason, as you said... this is completely true.
 
To quote on of my favorite movies, "Russians son, don't take a dump without a plan."

He's got a plan, he's picked his moment not by mistake or situations but because he's planned this for a long time, and will now execute that plan. He's smart, calculating and a strong leader - if he wants Ukraine and Crimea he will be allowed to take them - no one is going to step in front of him and block his plan. The only thing the rest of the world can do is try and implement economic sanctions and isolate Russia effectively bringing back the cold war.

To the US President: The 1980's are on the phone and guess what they want to talk about? It's not al-qaeda... :lamo

Obama: The 1980s Called, They Want Their Policy Back - DailyFinance

You're taking your cues on foreign policy from a movie? I take mine from the "Hunt for Red October." It blew me away when I got to Russia and they didn't all sound like Sean Connery.

Honestly, I spent 3 weeks there a couple of years ago, and if they plan everything, you wouldn't know. Moscow highways are a giant cluster****. Millions of cars doing whatever the hell they want to...the trains are planned, but not much else.
 
We'll keep watching how the empty suit responds to this crisis.
 
You're taking your cues on foreign policy from a movie?
I'm pointing out what I see as an entertainment quote which fits a current event.


Honestly, I spent 3 weeks there a couple of years ago, and if they plan everything, you wouldn't know. Moscow highways are a giant cluster****. Millions of cars doing whatever the hell they want to...the trains are planned, but not much else.
Did you spend your time with the Parliament, President or military leaders? I'd personally would be hesitant to associate compare their government plans and executes military agenda's based on their vehicle traffic problems.
 
To quote on of my favorite movies, "Russians son, don't take a dump without a plan."

He's got a plan, he's picked his moment not by mistake or situations but because he's planned this for a long time, and will now execute that plan. He's smart, calculating and a strong leader - if he wants Ukraine and Crimea he will be allowed to take them - no one is going to step in front of him and block his plan. The only thing the rest of the world can do is try and implement economic sanctions and isolate Russia effectively bringing back the cold war.

To the US President: The 1980's are on the phone and guess what they want to talk about? It's not al-qaeda... :lamo

Obama: The 1980s Called, They Want Their Policy Back - DailyFinance


Mornin' Oakham. :2wave: Merkel is way off base. What.....they can't figure out that Putin, has been talking about the Ukraine since Bush junior and 2008. Back then he told Georgie Boy.....Ukraine was a Russian Territory. What changed from then? What has Putin's actions shown all along?

One thing all are forgetting with Putin. He looks at the Fall of Russia as the Worst 20th Century Geo Political Disaster that ever took place. He has stated this over and over again. But Like RM and FA are saying he is trying to unify the People known as Russians. Just as we would do and did do with 911.

That said.....he also sees the EU and US affecting his Naval abilities and Russian projection of power. First in and around Syria......and now here around the home of his Black Fleet. It's not happening and he just made that point. Despite the Russians willing to bargain over Syria. Knowing now they can have a Base back in Egypt.
 
Mornin' Oakham. :2wave: Merkel is way off base. What.....they can't figure out that Putin, has been talking about the Ukraine since Bush junior and 2008. Back then he told Georgie Boy.....Ukraine was a Russian Territory. What changed from then? What has Putin's actions shown all along?

One thing all are forgetting with Putin. He looks at the Fall of Russia as the Worst 20th Century Geo Political Disaster that ever took place. He has stated this over and over again. But Like RM and FA are saying he is trying to unify the People known as Russians. Just as we would do and did do with 911.

That said.....he also sees the EU and US affecting his Naval abilities and Russian projection of power. First in and around Syria......and now here around the home of his Black Fleet. It's not happening and he just made that point. Despite the Russians willing to bargain over Syria. Knowing now they can have a Base back in Egypt.

She may be trying to tamp down the possible public anxiety by down playing this. I certainly hope she's not clueless here and will work towards economic sanctions especially with EU banks to send a little pain the Kremlin's way.
 
She may be trying to tamp down the possible public anxiety by down playing this. I certainly hope she's not clueless here and will work towards economic sanctions especially with EU banks to send a little pain the Kremlin's way.

Economic sanctions wont work here and it will rebound back. So even if they talked about them. Getting them implemented is another thing. There will be delays and back offs by other countries.

Banning them from the G-8 and G 20 for a year will do what exactly? Then he can keep even more hidden all the way around. So when they threaten this. That may appear as being positive but it really isn't prudent if they want to know the ingredients of that Ritz cracker Putin is using.
 
Economic sanctions wont work here and it will rebound back. So even if they talked about them. Getting them implemented is another thing. There will be delays and back offs by other countries.

Banning them from the G-8 and G 20 for a year will do what exactly? Then he can keep even more hidden all the way around. So when they threaten this. That may appear as being positive but it really isn't prudent if they want to know the ingredients of that Ritz cracker Putin is using.

It's hard to say what the effect will be. One can suppose that if most if not all of the G-8 can get on board with sanctions, it would put pressure on Putin - how much pressure and what real effects would be are at this time, probably unknown. There is a chance it could boomerang certainly - but I find Obama is very anxious to not burn a bridge with Russia or Putin. It will be a political embarrassment if the cold war returns for round 2 and probably seen as another failure of his administration. I don't see a strong card the US can play here other than paying Russia off or conceding to demands they may have - and even then - I don't see how capitulation would fit in with Putin's plan and he does have one. We just need to confirm what it is.
 
The Russian occupation of Crimea has challenged Mr. Obama as has no other international crisis, and at its heart, the advice seemed to pose the same question: Is Mr. Obama tough enough to take on the former K.G.B. colonel in the Kremlin? It is no easy task
. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said.
“In another world,” she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/w...ks-to-rein-in-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0
Putins actions only seem crazy if you view him as a responsible world leader. If you view him for what he really is--a gangster and a thug--then his actions make perfect sense. That would make Merkel the one out of touch with reality, not Putin.
 
It's hard to say what the effect will be. One can suppose that if most if not all of the G-8 can get on board with sanctions, it would put pressure on Putin - how much pressure and what real effects would be are at this time, probably unknown. There is a chance it could boomerang certainly - but I find Obama is very anxious to not burn a bridge with Russia or Putin. It will be a political embarrassment if the cold war returns for round 2 and probably seen as another failure of his administration. I don't see a strong card the US can play here other than paying Russia off or conceding to demands they may have - and even then - I don't see how capitulation would fit in with Putin's plan and he does have one. We just need to confirm what it is.


Kerry is telling the American people that Putin isn't operating from a position of strength.....does this tell you how out of touch Team Obama is? Even most Leaders around the world can see Putin is.....Operating from a Position of strength. He is controlling the Ukraine with 6k troops. Has 144k ready to jump and none can muster up a force other than the Ukrainians.

Look the gas lines all go thru the Ukraine. Gobs of them. Putin will pass Royalties Right on down the line. No one in the EU is going to want that coming back at them. It will cause even more trouble.

Putin already knew the Russian markets would take a hit.....all this was thought ahead. Russian Banks raised rates 1%. Effectively.
 
Kerry is telling the American people that Putin isn't operating from a position of strength.....does this tell you how out of touch Team Obama is? Even most Leaders around the world can see Putin is.....Operating from a Position of strength. He is controlling the Ukraine with 6k troops. Has 144k ready to jump and none can muster up a force other than the Ukrainians.

Look the gas lines all go thru the Ukraine. Gobs of them. Putin will pass Royalties Right on down the line. No one in the EU is going to want that coming back at them. It will cause even more trouble.

Putin already knew the Russian markets would take a hit.....all this was thought ahead. Russian Banks raised rates 1%. Effectively.

Good morning, MMC. :2wave:

I just don't like the appearance that America was blindsided by a very well thought out move by Putin, and we are now flailing around again trying to find a way out. That's not how it should be, but that's the way it looks to the rest of the world! :2mad:
 
Mornin' Oakham. :2wave: Merkel is way off base. What.....they can't figure out that Putin, has been talking about the Ukraine since Bush junior and 2008. Back then he told Georgie Boy.....Ukraine was a Russian Territory. What changed from then? What has Putin's actions shown all along?

One thing all are forgetting with Putin. He looks at the Fall of Russia as the Worst 20th Century Geo Political Disaster that ever took place. He has stated this over and over again. But Like RM and FA are saying he is trying to unify the People known as Russians. Just as we would do and did do with 911.

That said.....he also sees the EU and US affecting his Naval abilities and Russian projection of power. First in and around Syria......and now here around the home of his Black Fleet. It's not happening and he just made that point. Despite the Russians willing to bargain over Syria. Knowing now they can have a Base back in Egypt.
shows just how everything is inter-related in world power projections.
I assume you mean the new 'dialog' between Eqypt & Russia - specifically the new arms deal? (2/14/14)
Russia and Egypt have reached an initial agreement on an arms deal worth more than $2 billion, during a meeting in Moscow between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Egyptian army chief Abdel Fattah al Sisi, a local newspaper, Vedomosti, reported Friday.
The Egyptian army chief said, according to The Moscow Times: “We of course are also interested in various forms of cooperation with you in the interests of providing a good life for our people in all spheres. We are always supporters of stability and peace throughout the world

which is in part from Obama's unilateral decision - without calls from Congress- to suspend replacement parts, and new fighters to Egypt, because of their "junta government."
Always though that was a bad idea -opening the door to Russian expansionism in the ME.

Russia And Egypt Reach Initial Agreements Over Arms Deal Worth $2 Billion During Sisi's Visit To Moscow

I do think we're cutting way too much naval power - going back to 200 ships, no matter how advanced that juist isn't enough to support our fleets ability to have a continual presence.
Not just for Russian expansionism, but for the new Chinese navy expanding.

These events do not happen in isolation, and I think Obama is either clueless, or willfully ignorant of global power plays
 
Good morning, MMC. :2wave:

I just don't like the appearance that America was blindsided by a very well thought out move by Putin, and we are now flailing around again trying to find a way out. That's not how it should be, but that's the way it looks to the rest of the world! :2mad:


Well there are a lot that feel the same Lady P :2wave: ......and some that are our allies. Right now there are questions that are being put out there asking.....Do you have Confidence in the Leadership of the Country? All coming about due to comments made by Kerry, Powers, Rice, and Obama. Threats and demands with Obama telling Putin he is violating International Law. While appearing and being perceived around the World.....that they had no clue as to what was going on here.

I am sure Team Obama doesn't mind the attention being taken off his care package. But you are Right.....there is no mistaking he and his Team were blind-sided by this.

Then again.....what I know.
 
There's no question that the entire West was blindsided The US and its President included. Who might these "allies" be, who presumably saw it coming but said nothing?
 
shows just how everything is inter-related in world power projections.
I assume you mean the new 'dialog' between Eqypt & Russia - specifically the new arms deal? (2/14/14)


which is in part from Obama's unilateral decision - without calls from Congress- to suspend replacement parts, and new fighters to Egypt, because of their "junta government."
Always though that was a bad idea -opening the door to Russian expansionism in the ME.

Russia And Egypt Reach Initial Agreements Over Arms Deal Worth $2 Billion During Sisi's Visit To Moscow

I do think we're cutting way too much naval power - going back to 200 ships, no matter how advanced that juist isn't enough to support our fleets ability to have a continual presence.
Not just for Russian expansionism, but for the new Chinese navy expanding.

These events do not happen in isolation, and I think Obama is either clueless, or willfully ignorant of global power plays


Mornin' AT.....Yeah they will have a port there too. Now The the Senate Whip and Obama's yes man. Dick Durbin wants Congress to Condemn Putin. WTF!

Durbin: U.S. needs to ‘draw a line’

International pressure on Russia mounted as leaders from the EU and the UK joined an international outcry over the escalation of violence in the region. On the domestic front, Durbin and Graham said that there are actions Congress can take to show Putin his use of military force is unacceptable.

“We’ve got to make it clear to Putin that if there are Russian-speaking people on the soil of another nation, that doesn’t give him license to invade, to protect them when there is no obvious threat against them,” Durbin said. “What Congress has to do, what the Senate has to do quickly is a resolution condemning what Putin has done.”

The Illinois Democrat said that Russia’s “charm offensive,” dumping billions of dollars into the 2014 Winter Olympics held in Sochi, has done little to redefine the nation’s image among Western nations.

“That Sochi charm offensive died on the streets of Sevastopol (Ukraine) when he moved in thousands of troops days after the closing ceremony. He is trying to have it both ways,” Durbin said. “We’ve got to make him feel like there is a price to pay for this kind of conduct.”

Graham said the U.S. needs to make clear to countries surrounding Russia its resolve to take action against Putin and accelerate the admission of neighboring countries, like Georgia and Moldova, into NATO.....snip~

Durbin calls for suspension of Russia, swift action against Putin | WQAD.com
 
There's no question that the entire West was blindsided The US and its President included. Who might these "allies" be, who presumably saw it coming but said nothing?

I don't think any in the West saw it coming.....how does this change what they viewed now these past days with conflicting Messages being put out by the US?

Do you think that our allies seeing we were blindsided would talk with their people and mention that since such happened. This is what needs to be done?
 
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