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Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

You worried?

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 49.4%

  • No

    Votes: 36 44.4%

  • I'm buying my marshmallows

    Votes: 5 6.2%
  • Total voters
    81
Rainman05 said:
ecofarm said:
I don't get it, people. Assad slaughters 100k and gasses the capital, and people don't want to get involved. A mostly western nation intervenes with an instability issue on its border and NOW people want to do something? That doesn't make any sense. WTF kind of priorities are those?
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There is no "good" faction to support in Syria.
the rebels are islamists who want sharia and kill alawites and christians.
The FSA is inexistent and has been for a long time now.
The kurds are separatists who want to take NE Syria.
And Assad is a dictator who lost all legitimacy. You tell me now, eco, who will you have supported? None. The only course of intervention in Syria is to destroy all those 4 groups and give the people democracy. And that means long time occupation, another Iraq basically.

In Ukraine, that's not the case now. There is a right course of action and there are correct choices -> the pro-EU protesters and the people they trust are the ones we need to be supporting. There is a chance for an easier happy ending, and a quicker happy ending to this. There is no easy way with Syria.
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There is also isn't going to be a country we could work and trade with either. Ukraine whether it splits or remains as a whole is more likely to be a country we can deal and do business with and culturally we have a lot more in common than we ever would have even if we had gone into Syria.
 
I'm not particularly worried, no, certainly not the point of expecting WWIII out of this. I've been waiting 20+ years for this to happen and, quite frankly, I'm surprised it's taken this long. Eventually, Russia and Western Europe were going to be face to face, again. Well, here we are. Russia is in a weaker position than before but it's still a big economic power in Eastern Europe with all it's natural resources and infrastructure between it and the rest of the area. Just like the US, Russia will use that economic power to gain and maintain a certain amount of control - and it sure doesn't hurt that it's also the 400 pound gorilla in that area of the world. (Like US, they really don't have to use the military chip in this kind of power struggle - it's existence is enough.)

Should we be worried? About what? Russia acting like US? :lol:
 
Infinite Chaos said:
There is also isn't going to be a country we could work and trade with either. Ukraine whether it splits or remains as a whole is more likely to be a country we can deal and do business with and culturally we have a lot more in common than we ever would have even if we had gone into Syria.
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You've got to be joking. The world trades with post-Saddam Iraq.

You know who we didn't trade with and couldn't give a crap about? Ukraine under a western-friendly government. It didn't happen then and it's not happening anytime soon.
 
Aren't you all so funny with your little puns.
 
Peter Grimm said:
If the thought of war between USA and Russia doesn't make you **** yourself, I don't know about sociopath.... but maybe your sense of realism is a bit out of whack.

Russia isn't Iraq or even Vietnam. It isn't even Japan or Germany. It would by far be the most brutal and difficult war in the history of this nation.
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I do not see the US going to war over the Ukraine. Just not a materially important enough war for the US to enter into. Symbolically, yes, it would mean old Mother Russia is flexing her muscles. Combine this with Russia seeking, what is it, 7-8 countries around the globe to allow for docking and replenishment and what you have is Putin unmanning Obama once again.

China has a strategic military alliance with Russia and that old dragon has been spreading her wings too. Iran, another one, continuing with a enrichment program outside the parameters of the agreed upon deal made with the US and another one showing the world that it too can thumb its nose at the once almighty super power.

All 3 testing the waters and all three getting away with largely symbolic victories. Iran will get itself into trouble soon enough. China is too smart to go too far in their belligerence, knowing that its too early in the game to be going gangster on us. Russia has nothing to lose because it has everything to lose. It can and will take the Ukraine maybe not an out and out take over, but under some guise you can be sure. Claim it is defending the legitimate government of a staunch ally appease the usurps plebs by making the old boy step down and put in a new Putin puppet that he'll call power sharing for the time being and later use the old KGB playbook to discredit and make illegitimate all who oppose him..

No one will do anything because no one will lose anything. Except for Ukrainians... and Russia should it not follow through...
 
ecofarm said:
You've got to be joking. The world trades with post-Saddam Iraq.

You know who we didn't trade with and couldn't give a crap about? Ukraine under a western-friendly government. It didn't happen then and it's not happening anytime soon.
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We didn't trade with Ukraine for the reasons outlined by Rainman earlier - you can't have forgotten the moves towards Ukraine joining the EU which were halted by Russia's bribes?

The whole process may start again once peace is resolved. Ukraine may become part of the EU and become a democracy - neither Syria nor Iraq have that kind of future ahead of them.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
We didn't trade with Ukraine for the reasons outlined by Rainman earlier - you can't have forgotten the moves towards Ukraine joining the EU which were halted by Russia's bribes?
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Ukraine had and has as much of a chance of getting into the EU as Turkey.


The whole process may start again once peace is resolved. Ukraine may become part of the EU and become a democracy - neither Syria nor Iraq have that kind of future ahead of them.
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I'll believe it when I see it.
 
ecofarm said:
Ukraine had and has as much of a chance of getting into the EU as Turkey.
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Not true - the desire to have Turkey join the EU was mainly from the USA, UK and a few others - some major countries such as France were against Turkey joining.

I don't recall any EU nations being against the Ukraine joining or starting the accession process. It was only Russia against them joining.

ecofarm said:
-- I'll believe it when I see it.
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Right now, who knows what is going to happen but a large part of the non-Russian Ukrainian population is for joining the EU.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Not true - the desire to have Turkey join the EU was mainly from the USA, UK and a few others - some major countries such as France were against Turkey joining.

I don't recall any EU nations being against the Ukraine joining or starting the accession process. It was only Russia against them joining.
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Which tells you a lot about the motivations of the anti-Turkey lobby. They argued that they didn't want a poor country on the eastern fringe of Europe becoming a member, yet Ukraine's per capita GDP is just 40% that of Turkey's, and the likelihood of mass migration from the Ukraine would be about twice as great.
 
Peter Grimm said:
If the thought of war between USA and Russia doesn't make you **** yourself, I don't know about sociopath.... but maybe your sense of realism is a bit out of whack.

Russia isn't Iraq or even Vietnam. It isn't even Japan or Germany. It would by far be the most brutal and difficult war in the history of this nation.
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I'm not playing down the gravity of the situation (as far as it goes), but don't expect any countdown to global annihilation. This isn't the Cuban missile crisis. The only time WW3 looks set to kick off is where superpowers face off directly. That won't happen over bum**** Ukraine. Nobody's 'ending the world' over this nappy BS. You need a little perspective. I'm guessing you probably succumbed to the hysteria over Iran and North Korea, too. Look what happened. Not one thing. We're all still breathing. Imagine that.

Don't waste your time sweating bullets about silly Armageddon scenarios. Worry about the fiscal deficit. Education, health care, the environment and trade. Stuff like that. Leave the placard-carrying doomsayers to their own devices. They like that ****. You don't have to follow suit. It's one small step from unfounded, reactionary hysteria to believing Kris Kristofferson drinks blood and shape shifts into a 7' lizard. Tread lightly, dude.
 
Peter Grimm said:
If Russia can grab Ukraine, why not Kazakhstan? Why not Poland? Why not East Germany?

This is why Obama is in a pickle. He can't show weakness, but, on the other hand, nobody wants a catastrophic war either. This war would make Iraq look like patty cake.
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Each one of those has a different geopolitical circumstance. You are essentially claiming a slippery slope, which in order to be valid, would require for there to be nothing to differentiate them. I can tell you, I would certainly never advocate allowing their grabbing of East Germany. Among other things, with them we actually do have a defense treaty, unlike Ukraine. (The agreement with Ukraine is not a defense treaty).

It is my view that Russia should have never permitted the departure of Ukraine without a partition. It makes no sense whatsoever for majority people aligned with Russia to be in a country that would potentially look to the West. And Crimea should be part of Russia without question, except for one brief aberration of history.

I believe Russia may seek partition. But for their agreement with us, the UK and Ukraine, military intervention to achieve it would even have some legitimacy, depending on the territories they seek.

So, nope, don't see the slippery slope that you do.
 
ChezC3 said:
I do not see the US going to war over the Ukraine. Just not a materially important enough war for the US to enter into. Symbolically, yes, it would mean old Mother Russia is flexing her muscles. Combine this with Russia seeking, what is it, 7-8 countries around the globe to allow for docking and replenishment and what you have is Putin unmanning Obama once again.

China has a strategic military alliance with Russia and that old dragon has been spreading her wings too. Iran, another one, continuing with a enrichment program outside the parameters of the agreed upon deal made with the US and another one showing the world that it too can thumb its nose at the once almighty super power.

All 3 testing the waters and all three getting away with largely symbolic victories. Iran will get itself into trouble soon enough. China is too smart to go too far in their belligerence, knowing that its too early in the game to be going gangster on us. Russia has nothing to lose because it has everything to lose. It can and will take the Ukraine maybe not an out and out take over, but under some guise you can be sure. Claim it is defending the legitimate government of a staunch ally appease the usurps plebs by making the old boy step down and put in a new Putin puppet that he'll call power sharing for the time being and later use the old KGB playbook to discredit and make illegitimate all who oppose him..

No one will do anything because no one will lose anything. Except for Ukrainians... and Russia should it not follow through...
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Strangely, Russia is giving Yanukovich the cold shoulder. I would have agreed with you about them defending "the legitimate government", but for that. It is interesting, their game.
 
DDD said:
Russia has met his match in Ukraine. This is not Georgia. The freaking Russian bully cannot just occupy and treat lands that do not belong to them by force like it did in Georgia and none did much about it. This one has a fighting chance. This one can fight, is armed, and may only need some help while engaged.

Russia better stay the F out of this one because if they lose a war here countries currently within Russia may follow. They are oppressed from the bully system just as well and may ask to be really free too!

Now I know none wants neither to intervene nor to corner Russia out of fears of WW3. But Ukraine may no longer take being bullied from Russia neither! Perhaps intervention may come, but may do so when Ukraine and Russia start giving positive signals that they want us to intervene between them.
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Yeah.....


The government of Ukraine is a nigh-on-collapsed, bankrupt entity probably unable to exercise control over all of it's territory without Russian intervention. I put the odds of them successfully repulsing or even managing a serious impediment to Russia's seizure of the Ukraine at..... low.
 
Dezaad said:
Each one of those has a different geopolitical circumstance. You are essentially claiming a slippery slope, which in order to be valid, would require for there to be nothing to differentiate them.
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This is sort of correct and sort of incorrect. In order for this claim to be valid, it would require that the Russians perceive that the differences between the various sectors of their Near Abroad are not strong enough to make seizure or other exertion of controlling influence a mistake.


I don't think they would send troops into East Germany. But you better believe the rest of Eastern Europe just got a real close look at how much they could depend upon the EU and the U.S. in a crises with Russia.
 
Peter Grimm said:
If Russia can grab Ukraine, why not Kazakhstan? Why not Poland? Why not East Germany?
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One of these is not like the other.

Peter Grimm said:
This is why Obama is in a pickle. He can't show weakness, but, on the other hand, nobody wants a catastrophic war either. This war would make Iraq look like patty cake.
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Much the same could be said of any of a number of military ventures of ours that Russia doesn't like.
 
cpwill said:
This is sort of correct and sort of incorrect. In order for this claim to be valid, it would require that the Russians perceive that the differences between the various sectors of their Near Abroad are not strong enough to make seizure or other exertion of controlling influence a mistake.


I don't think they would send troops into East Germany. But you better believe the rest of Eastern Europe just got a real close look at how much they could depend upon the EU and the U.S. in a crises with Russia.
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Oh for god's sake! http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm
 
Russian upper house approves use of force in Ukraine - CNN.com

Ukraine is toast.

(CNN) -- Russia's upper house of parliament voted Saturday to approve the use of military force in Ukraine. The vote was unanimous.

[Original Story, published 9:23 a.m. ET]

(CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked the upper house of parliament for approval to send Russian troops into Ukraine's Crimea region to normalize the political situation there, the Kremlin said Saturday.

Due to the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine," Putin said, there are threats to the lives of Russian citizens and Russian military personnel based in the southern Crimean region.
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DDD said:
Russia has met his match in Ukraine. This is not Georgia. The freaking Russian bully cannot just occupy and treat lands that do not belong to them by force like it did in Georgia and none did much about it. This one has a fighting chance. This one can fight, is armed, and may only need some help while engaged.

Russia better stay the F out of this one because if they lose a war here countries currently within Russia may follow. They are oppressed from the bully system just as well and may ask to be really free too!

Now I know none wants neither to intervene nor to corner Russia out of fears of WW3. But Ukraine may no longer take being bullied from Russia neither! Perhaps intervention may come, but may do so when Ukraine and Russia start giving positive signals that they want us to intervene between them.
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Putin has 150,000 troops on the border, they will be no match for the Ukrainian forces so fighting is futile. This is a NATO operation and the first thing they need to do is to hit Putin where it hurts, in the pocketbook. Embargo all Russian oil and natural gas sales and he will come around real quick. I repeat this is NATO's and Europes baby. it's their balls on the line. They can also fast track Georgia's entry into NATO
 
What worries me is the possibility of allowing Russia to invade another nation and oppress those people into a pro-Russian/soviet style government. If Russia gets involved then the rest of the world should as well to stop them.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I don't recall any EU nations being against the Ukraine joining or starting the accession process. It was only Russia against them joining.
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In 2012, the EU signed deals on free trade and political association with Ukraine; however EU leaders have stated that these agreements will not be ratified unless Ukraine addresses concerns over a "stark deterioration of democracy and the rule of law", including the imprisonment of Yulia Tymoshenko and Yuriy Lutsenko in 2011 and 2012.[2][3][4][nb 1] On 25 February 2013, the EU set a three-month deadline for Ukraine to carry out the required changes to its justice and electoral systems in order to enable the formal signing of their agreements with the EU in Vilnius on 29 November 2013.[6]
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Ukraine


Let's not pretend that Ukraine ever had a clear path to membership.
 
digsbe said:
What worries me is the possibility of allowing Russia to invade another nation and oppress those people into a pro-Russian/soviet style government. If Russia gets involved then the rest of the world should as well to stop them.
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Russia is like a big, dumb bully that has to fight for resources, because he's not friendly enough to work with others. The problem with pressuring a bully is that you never know how he might respond. I've fought plenty of them and they are not the push overs that common stories tell you.
 
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