• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Are men in the western world losing their masculinity?

Are Western men becoming less masculine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 38.1%

  • No

    Votes: 19 45.2%

  • Meatloaf Sandwich

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Total voters
    42
DA60 said:
Prove it using links to unbiased facts/data?

From the linked study you say was 'non-specific'

'Fifteen placebo-controlled treatment groups with baseline and ending measures were analyzed. In addition, 32 reports involving 36 treatment groups were assessed in simpler models to ascertain the results.'

This study was run by one medical doctor and six Ph.D.'s.


Then you should have no problem providing plenty of links to large unbiased, scientific studies performed recently that proves your statement.



From just the first link on Google I found about the negative effects of red meat:

'Negative Health Effects of Red Meat
Regardless, nutritionists hardly need more evidence about the potentially negative health effects of eating red meat. For starters, the saturated animal fat in red meat contributes to heart disease and atherosclerosis. Recent research also shows that frequent red meat eaters face twice the risk of colon cancer as those who indulge less often. Red meat is also thought to increase the risks of rheumatoid arthritis and endometriosis.

Meanwhile, according to the American Dietetic Association, vegetarian diets can significantly reduce the risk of heart disease, colon cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and other debilitating medical conditions. While red meat is a key source of protein and vitamin B12 in North American diets, nutritionists explain that properly planned meat-free diets easily provide these important nutrients while keeping you healthier in the long run.'

Red Meat – What are the Negative Health Effects of Red Meat?

Again, where are your links to unbiased factual proof to back up this statement?
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I feel Muhammed is pulling your leg.
 
German guy said:
I could be wrong, but I feel Muhammed is pulling your leg.
Click to expand...

Well, if he is - I will remember to not take him seriously any longer...I have better things to do then the above if the other person is just 'fooolin'.

Either way - thanks for the heads up.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
What I'm getting at is this.....
Click to expand...

First, I was making general observations in my OP, not conducting a scientific experiment. Yes, sometimes you observe things in your daily life and you draw conclusions that you think best fit those observations, even if they don't have all the weight of proof that one might expect from a true study.

Let's take a look at what I, quite haphazardly actually, used as examples in my OP for how men are losing their masculinity. I mentioned...


The type of music they listen to - The type of music someone listens to often describes the kind of person or scene they identify with. It's just an observation, but I think the music men are listening to today is less aggressive, less offensive, and generally more watered down. It's a reflection of the new man - one who dislikes and avoids conflict at all costs. Not a very masculine trait.

The sudden glorification by many of gays - You never used to see this, now you see it all the time. You also see male feminists, such as the one in the link by GaThomas with the male politician in Sweden who wants to make it illegal for men to urinate standing up. All of this, to me, is indicative of the "new man," which is a man who doesn't want to offend women and gays, who would gladly throw his manhood out the door, bend over and waffle around in order to avoid any hint of conflict or offending anyone. Today's man is a wet fish, not very masculine.

The disinterest in beer - Drinking beer is a risk-taking activity, and being risky makes it masculine. Just like riding a motorcycle is masculine, skydiving is masculine, going to war is masculine, and so on. Today's man drinks diet 7-up and eats vitamins so he can look good in his skinny jeans.

...and sports - Sports are competitive and aggressive, two masculine traits. Interest in sports is down in the past couple decades. And yes, competition is a masculine trait. Winning induces a dopamine surge, which raises testosterone. I'm not making stuff up half-assed, you can look it up. For instance, they did one study that measured serum testosterone in football players before and after a game. The winning team's average testosterone went up during the game and after, the losing team's blood levels were completely tanked after the game. They did another study where they measured testosterone in average males before and after the last presidential election. Men who voted for Obama saw no change in testosterone levels, men who voted for Romney saw their testosterone go in the tank for a few hours after the results were announced. So yes, winning at something actually has a physical effect on masculinity and that's why testosterone-addicted males seek it out.

the sudden interest in telephones and gossip- co-dependence is a feminine trait, men are more individual. Women travel in packs and giggle and finish each other's sentences and lean on each other for support, men go our own way without needing validation from anyone else. But not today's man, today's man keeps his boyfriends on speed dial or group text so he can share instagram photos of his new skinny jeans.

the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion- Again, a sign of a need for approval and validation from other people, not a masculine trait.

and a general passive, whining demeanor- Aggression is a masculine trait. A man is direct and confronts problems with directness. Passive aggression is a feminine trait and it comes from not being able to impose your will, so you have to work around the side and backstab. Today's man won't punch you in the nose, he'll go behind your back and start a rumor about you and deny it. Not a very masculine trait. Today's man won't stand up and say what he means and mean what he says (dominant traits, hence masculine), today's man will passively whine and nag hoping that you will solve his problems for him.


Anyway, back to the point of the OP... while my observations might be subjective I've seen enough in my mind to conclude that masculinity is definitely on the decline. What's worrying is that this decline might be tied to a biological decrease in testosterone, as shown by studies. Researchers speculate that the decline migh be due to chemicals in the environment. If that's true, it's concerning and the public needs to be aware.
 
DA60 said:
Prove it using links to unbiased facts/data?

From the linked study you say was 'non-specific'

'Fifteen placebo-controlled treatment groups with baseline and ending measures were analyzed. In addition, 32 reports involving 36 treatment groups were assessed in simpler models to ascertain the results.'

This study was run by one medical doctor and six Ph.D.'s.


Then you should have no problem providing plenty of links to large unbiased, scientific studies performed recently that proves your statement.



From just the first link on Google I found about the negative effects of red meat:

'Negative Health Effects of Red Meat
Regardless, nutritionists hardly need more evidence about the potentially negative health effects of eating red meat. For starters, the saturated animal fat in red meat contributes to heart disease and atherosclerosis. Recent research also shows that frequent red meat eaters face twice the risk of colon cancer as those who indulge less often. Red meat is also thought to increase the risks of rheumatoid arthritis and endometriosis.

Meanwhile, according to the American Dietetic Association, vegetarian diets can significantly reduce the risk of heart disease, colon cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and other debilitating medical conditions. While red meat is a key source of protein and vitamin B12 in North American diets, nutritionists explain that properly planned meat-free diets easily provide these important nutrients while keeping you healthier in the long run.'

Red Meat – What are the Negative Health Effects of Red Meat?

Again, where are your links to unbiased factual proof to back up this statement?
Click to expand...

Meat and eggs are high in saturated fats, cholesterols, choline, creatines, minerals and other substances that are vital to normal hormone production.

One of the culprits of low testosterone in 2014 compared to 1980 might be our low fat diets, as fats are essentially the precursors to hormones, and animal fats are more effective in this regard than plant fats.
 
Peter Grimm said:
First, I was making general observations in my OP, not conducting a scientific experiment. Yes, sometimes you observe things in your daily life and you draw conclusions that you think best fit those observations, even if they don't have all the weight of proof that one might expect from a true study.

Let's take a look at what I, quite haphazardly actually, used as examples in my OP for how men are losing their masculinity. I mentioned...


The type of music they listen to - The type of music someone listens to often describes the kind of person or scene they identify with. It's just an observation, but I think the music men are listening to today is less aggressive, less offensive, and generally more watered down. It's a reflection of the new man - one who dislikes and avoids conflict at all costs. Not a very masculine trait.
Click to expand...

The finest men of the late 18th century listened to Mozart and considered him the pinnacle of Western music. Compare him to even the popular "less aggressive, less offensive" popular music of today, and Mozart is flat-out gay in comparison. Actually, it was only a relatively short period of time when *certain* males listened to hard rock/metal/rap, and what's considered sinister and offensive changes very much over time.

I don't see there is anything sufficiently objective to that observation that allows drawing conclusions.

The sudden glorification by many of gays - You never used to see this, now you see it all the time. You also see male feminists, such as the one in the link by GaThomas with the male politician in Sweden who wants to make it illegal for men to urinate standing up. All of this, to me, is indicative of the "new man," which is a man who doesn't want to offend women and gays, who would gladly throw his manhood out the door, bend over and waffle around in order to avoid any hint of conflict or offending anyone. Today's man is a wet fish, not very masculine.
Click to expand...

So in your opinion, it's "masculine" to be simply a dick towards other people, especially "weaker" human beings? If yes, do you think that's a good thing?

The disinterest in beer - Drinking beer is a risk-taking activity, and being risky makes it masculine. Just like riding a motorcycle is masculine, skydiving is masculine, going to war is masculine, and so on. Today's man drinks diet 7-up and eats vitamins so he can look good in his skinny jeans.
Click to expand...

Can't confirm this observation. At least in Germany, youth alcoholism is on the rise, mostly due to the fact that most girls catch up with the guys when it comes to boozing up. And again the question: You think alcoholism is masculine, and if yes, is that a good thing?

...and sports - Sports are competitive and aggressive, two masculine traits. Interest in sports is down in the past couple decades. And yes, competition is a masculine trait. Winning induces a dopamine surge, which raises testosterone. I'm not making stuff up half-assed, you can look it up. For instance, they did one study that measured serum testosterone in football players before and after a game. The winning team's average testosterone went up during the game and after, the losing team's blood levels were completely tanked after the game. They did another study where they measured testosterone in average males before and after the last presidential election. Men who voted for Obama saw no change in testosterone levels, men who voted for Romney saw their testosterone go in the tank for a few hours after the results were announced. So yes, winning at something actually has a physical effect on masculinity and that's why testosterone-addicted males seek it out.
Click to expand...

When certain people see elections like a sports match -- in terms of "our team winning vs. their team winning" --, I'd guess that's more a sign of naiveté and stupidity than of masculinity.

Anyway, I can't confirm from my observations in my environment that interest in sports is declining. Both men and women are similarly interested in sports as they used to be a decade before, though the interest in particular sports is subject of trends. And like decades before, most men are more interested in watching sport matchs on the tv than actually doing sport themselves. That is masculine?

the sudden interest in telephones and gossip- co-dependence is a feminine trait, men are more individual. Women travel in packs and giggle and finish each other's sentences and lean on each other for support, men go our own way without needing validation from anyone else. But not today's man, today's man keeps his boyfriends on speed dial or group text so he can share instagram photos of his new skinny jeans.
Click to expand...

Maybe the men you witness are just growing up and start renouncing the immature superficiality of their youth?

the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion- Again, a sign of a need for approval and validation from other people, not a masculine trait.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and pretty uniforms, medals and so on of past centuries was not vain at all, certainly. ;)

and a general passive, whining demeanor- Aggression is a masculine trait. A man is direct and confronts problems with directness. Passive aggression is a feminine trait and it comes from not being able to impose your will, so you have to work around the side and backstab. Today's man won't punch you in the nose, he'll go behind your back and start a rumor about you and deny it. Not a very masculine trait. Today's man won't stand up and say what he means and mean what he says (dominant traits, hence masculine), today's man will passively whine and nag hoping that you will solve his problems for him.
Click to expand...

I wonder if it has ever been different. In many old stories and even fairy tales, isn't there the stereotype of the vicious, evil male character who's without honor and will rather backstab than directly confront the hero?


Anyway, back to the point of the OP... while my observations might be subjective I've seen enough in my mind to conclude that masculinity is definitely on the decline. What's worrying is that this decline might be tied to a biological decrease in testosterone, as shown by studies. Researchers speculate that the decline migh be due to chemicals in the environment. If that's true, it's concerning and the public needs to be aware.
Click to expand...

I'd say to draw that conclusion, we'd first have to find an objective definition of what "masculinity" actually is. Then we have to find verifyable, objective evidence that it actually is less prevalent than it used to be, and that we're not just subjectively assuming that because of our own prejudices.

If you define masculinity as "aggression" and "will for dominating others", "disrespect for others" and "lack of communication skills", as you seem to do, I'd rather say it's barbaric lack of civilization that's declining. ;)
 
DA60 said:
From just the first link on Google I found about the negative effects of red meat:

'Negative Health Effects of Red Meat
Regardless, nutritionists hardly need more evidence about the potentially negative health effects of eating red meat. For starters, the saturated animal fat in red meat contributes to heart disease and atherosclerosis. Recent research also shows that frequent red meat eaters face twice the risk of colon cancer as those who indulge less often. Red meat is also thought to increase the risks of rheumatoid arthritis and endometriosis.

Meanwhile, according to the American Dietetic Association, vegetarian diets can significantly reduce the risk of heart disease, colon cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and other debilitating medical conditions. While red meat is a key source of protein and vitamin B12 in North American diets, nutritionists explain that properly planned meat-free diets easily provide these important nutrients while keeping you healthier in the long run.'
Click to expand...
So you cite the American Dietetic Association which is funded by ConAgra. All that article means is that ConAgra sold it's meat division so now they say vegetarian diets are good.

There is nothing scientific about that.
 
German guy said:
I could be wrong, but I feel Muhammed is pulling your leg.
Click to expand...
I'm not pulling anyone's leg. I'm giving you helpful advice to keep your mind and body in great condition.

If you don't want to take advice from an expert in nutrition like myself. Fine. It's your own body that you are poisoning. However, anyone who puts their child on some vegan diet just so they can feel smug and "envirionmentally conscious" ought to be tossed in prison for a very long time.
 
Muhammed said:
I'm not pulling anyone's leg. I'm giving you helpful advice to keep your mind and body in great condition.

If you don't want to take advice from an expert in nutrition like myself. Fine. It's your own body that you are poisoning. However, anyone who puts their child on some vegan diet just so they can feel smug and "envirionmentally conscious" ought to be tossed in prison for a very long time.
Click to expand...

Oh, don't look at me. I'm eating pizza, burgers and sausages all the time, and I'm healthy as a balloon. :)
 
meatloaf sandwich for sure.
 
Because this post covers so much I'm going to shorten down the responses and focus on things I disagree with or haven't already said.

Peter Grimm said:
First, I was making general observations in my OP, not conducting a scientific experiment.
Click to expand...
true.

The type of music they listen to - The type of music someone listens to often describes the kind of person or scene they identify with. It's just an observation, but I think the music men are listening to today is less aggressive, less offensive, and generally more watered down.
Click to expand...

Aggressive music as in the form of heavy metal, rock, rap, punk is all modern (within the last 70 years).

I love everything from Enya to Type O Negative, Mozart to Zombie. It doesn't add to or negate my femininity. I wager it doesn't affect masculinity in the same way. Music choices often do not dictate 'who you hang around' and 'what you do for a living' - you're resorting to stereotypes. You're making assumptions that it defines people by who they associate with and what they do in life: and it does not. Snider did not testify in front of Congress in order for you to sit her and claim that music choices dictate your gender.


You also see male feminists, such as the one in the link by GaThomas with the male politician in Sweden who wants to make it illegal for men to urinate standing up. All of this, to me, is indicative of the "new man," which is a man who doesn't want to offend women and gays, who would gladly throw his manhood out the door, bend over and waffle around in order to avoid any hint of conflict or offending anyone. Today's man is a wet fish, not very masculine.
Click to expand...

You're taking a few stray outliers - some oddities - and claiming they're 'the new male'. I have 4 boys and none of them were taught to pee sitting down.

- Again, I think your view of 'the average guy these days' is very off. You're focusing on minority groups of guys (gays and activists) and claiming they're reflective of 'a norm' and they're not. They're not *at all*


The disinterest in beer - Drinking beer is a risk-taking activity, and being risky makes it masculine. Just like riding a motorcycle is masculine, skydiving is masculine, going to war is masculine, and so on. Today's man drinks diet 7-up and eats vitamins so he can look good in his skinny jeans.
Click to expand...

Beer became a common beverage when it was first invented. Women, Men, Children drank it. Why? Because they knew that drinking water was dangerous - and beer was relatively safe. What they didn't understand was that the process to make beer *disinfected the substance* so it was then purified for consumption.

Aside that: other cultures embrace different drinks as staples and most involve heating or boiling the water to produce it. Tea, other liquors, coffee, etc. Likely: they all came into favor for the same reason. The heating process made it safe to drink.

It's not about risk. If you think it's about risk then that's just your view, your interest. That does not reflect drinking and society in a fair or accurate light. Risk is a modern slant on an old commonplace element.

...and sports - Sports are competitive and aggressive, two masculine traits. Interest in sports is down in the past couple decades. And yes, competition is a masculine trait. Winning induces a dopamine surge, which raises testosterone. I'm not making stuff up half-assed, you can look it up. [...]
Click to expand...

You presented the idea that competition is a masculine trait - I countered with the point that competition is a HUMAN nature characteristic found in most societies and equally in both genders. HOW we are permitted to express said desire for competition is what relies on gender. I used the example of Figure Skating VS Football. There are feminine forms of competition and masculine forms.

the sudden interest in telephones and gossip- co-dependence is a feminine trait, men are more individual. Women travel in packs and giggle and finish each other's sentences and lean on each other for support, men go our own way without needing validation from anyone else. But not today's man, today's man keeps his boyfriends on speed dial or group text so he can share instagram photos of his new skinny jeans.
Click to expand...

Again, more stereotypes. Who are you example for these things? It's painful to see your view of the average person these days because i only see these people on TV shows.

I do not travel in packs, I do not giggle, I do not finish other people's sentences. Many women do not.
Telephones and Gossip - why did you decide that communicate is masculine? Real men don't talk to people? I don't follow how you concluded this. Do you think that teens/men 50 years *did not* keep up with each other and talk about stuff they were into? They just, what, stood around silent and alone?

the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion- Again, a sign of a need for approval and validation from other people, not a masculine trait.
Click to expand...

What obsession? My god man - where do you live? I don't see this save for the OCCASIONAL outlier here and there. Hardly indicative of a society shift.

and a general passive, whining demeanor- Aggression is a masculine trait. A man is direct and confronts problems with directness. Passive aggression is a feminine trait and it comes from not being able to impose your will, so you have to work around the side and backstab.
Click to expand...

More stereotypes. Women aren't direct? We can't be confrontational? What planet are you ON?

Today's man won't stand up and say what he means and mean what he says (dominant traits, hence masculine), today's man will passively whine and nag hoping that you will solve his problems for him.
Click to expand...

A lot of guys do - why do you think they don't? We boast high crime, rape, murder rates that reflect that this compulsion for physical confrontation hasn't gone anywhere. If anything, it's only increased to the point of it being absurd.

Every European/Western society encourages males to show restraint and not 'stoop to the low level of being a brute' - take note of that. No society ENCOURAGES that type of behavior.

Anyway, back to the point of the OP... while my observations might be subjective I've seen enough in my mind to conclude that masculinity is definitely on the decline. What's worrying is that this decline might be tied to a biological decrease in testosterone, as shown by studies. Researchers speculate that the decline migh be due to chemicals in the environment. If that's true, it's concerning and the public needs to be aware.
Click to expand...

Well - based on my exposure to men in the world which includes a large number of college tens, men in my family of all ages and races, and my own children and their school friends, etc: masculine as *you* define it and even as *I define it* is not on a decline at all. I don't know where you are - but I don't think what you see is reflective of "the future of mankind"

I think you're worried about things that are merely temporary trends in society - specifically: your region. Join me in Arkansas - you can drink beer and root for the Razorbacks like everyone else. "Manly men" aren't an endangered species. You're bothered for nothing.

Many of your concepts ARE based on modern 'masculinity' and reflect males TODAY and how they view things like drinking and music.

Masculinity, to me, is much more substantial than that. It withstands the test of time because it is not trivial things like a CHOICE of sports.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Meat and eggs are high in saturated fats, cholesterols, choline, creatines, minerals and other substances that are vital to normal hormone production.

One of the culprits of low testosterone in 2014 compared to 1980 might be our low fat diets, as fats are essentially the precursors to hormones, and animal fats are more effective in this regard than plant fats.
Click to expand...

I just want to chime in on the subject of dietary changes - because it's undeniable there have been significant changes in the last 50 and then 100+ years.

Major changes: an increase in the consumption of processed sugar, fat, and carbohydrates. Mainly: snacks, junk food, candies, sodas, and bread products. This is unprecedented in human history and has various negative effects on both males and females.

If testosterone is down it's likely due to an increase in unhealthy lifestyle choices which involve those foods and more sedentary lifestyles. Basically: lifestyle choices are rendering high testosterone levels to be unnecessary for the male body to maintain.

Someone at some point mentioned soy: it's high in estrogen. You shouldn't feed a boy soy, it leads to gynocamastia (male breasts) for some. It's standard knowledge if you're a mother of a lactose intolerant child (btw). I learned this by researching caseine and lactose low diets for 2 of my kids when they were struggling with a health issue in the past. Things like almond milk were given temporarily instead.

German guy said:
If you define masculinity as "aggression" and "will for dominating others", "disrespect for others" and "lack of communication skills", as you seem to do, I'd rather say it's barbaric lack of civilization that's declining. ;)
Click to expand...

Sadly, I agree. It seems that just being a civil person is in decline if masculinity involves displays of aggression and so on. If you talk out your problems instead of fighting them out your '***** whipped' as my ex used to say. For shame. Real men shouldn't have to fight it out to settle matters, I imagine they would have matured past that urge.

Life is soft for the modern HUMAN living in a 1st class society. Male or female: very few people have ever had to tough it out.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I just want to chime in on the subject of dietary changes - because it's undeniable there have been significant changes in the last 50 and then 100+ years.

Major changes: an increase in the consumption of processed sugar, fat, and carbohydrates. Mainly: snacks, junk food, candies, sodas, and bread products. This is unprecedented in human history and has various negative effects on both males and females.

If testosterone is down it's likely due to an increase in unhealthy lifestyle choices which involve those foods and more sedentary lifestyles. Basically: lifestyle choices are rendering high testosterone levels to be unnecessary for the male body to maintain.

Someone at some point mentioned soy: it's high in estrogen. You shouldn't feed a boy soy, it leads to gynocamastia (male breasts) for some. It's standard knowledge if you're a mother of a lactose intolerant child (btw). I learned this by researching caseine and lactose low diets for 2 of my kids when they were struggling with a health issue in the past. Things like almond milk were given temporarily instead.



Sadly, I agree. It seems that just being a civil person is in decline if masculinity involves displays of aggression and so on. If you talk out your problems instead of fighting them out your '***** whipped' as my ex used to say. For shame. Real men shouldn't have to fight it out to settle matters, I imagine they would have matured past that urge.

Life is soft for the modern HUMAN living in a 1st class society. Male or female: very few people have ever had to tough it out.
Click to expand...


I agree with you that diet is most likely the culprit of the lowered testosterone levels we're seeing today (and we are seeing them, it has been researched).

Many researchers believe that phytoestrogens found in plastics and pesticides are also to blame. Of course, the chemical companies and their lobbyists disagree...

There's an interesting 60 minutes piece on it if you have time to take a look.

[video]http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/cbsnews_player_embed.swf[/video]
 
Peter Grimm said:
I agree with you that diet is most likely the culprit of the lowered testosterone levels we're seeing today (and we are seeing them, it has been researched).

Many researchers believe that phytoestrogens found in plastics and pesticides are also to blame. Of course, the chemical companies and their lobbyists disagree...

There's an interesting 60 minutes piece on it if you have time to take a look.

[video]http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/cbsnews_player_embed.swf[/video]
Click to expand...

We use a host of additive and preservatives and all too often the 'long term, low dose effects' are unknown. Many aren't researched at all. (Do rats count?)

There are other things to consider: Adults, on average, sleep less. Many people are 'exhausted' day in and day out. Sleep apnea is on a rise (most likely due to an increase in body mass). Certain environments are more stressful, psychologically (work, school, etc - in the past stressors likely spiked the demand for testosterone. I'm just assuming. No studies can be done on 300 year old dead guys - sorry). An increased reliance on medications for normal daily function. A side effect of some of my husband's heart and other meds are things like Low-t. Also, exposure to environmental toxins can contribute.

(I sound like a greener. LOL)

You know - everything that defines us as a modern society can be a culprit.
 
Muhammed said:
So you cite the American Dietetic Association which is funded by ConAgra. All that article means is that ConAgra sold it's meat division so now they say vegetarian diets are good.

There is nothing scientific about that.
Click to expand...

You have posted zip links to back up anything you have said...I will waste no further time on this with you.

We are done on this until you post links to unbiased sources to back up ALL your claims.


Good day.
 
Last edited:
DA60 said:
Riiiight.

You have posted zip links to back up anything you have said...I will waste no further time on this with you.

We are done on this until you post links to unbiased sources to back up ALL your claims.
Click to expand...
I'm not doing your homework for you.
 
Muhammed said:
I'm not pulling anyone's leg. I'm giving you helpful advice to keep your mind and body in great condition.

If you don't want to take advice from an expert in nutrition like myself. Fine. It's your own body that you are poisoning. However, anyone who puts their child on some vegan diet just so they can feel smug and "envirionmentally conscious" ought to be tossed in prison for a very long time.
Click to expand...

Sooooo....you are now advocating very long prison terms for parents of children who feed their children a solely plant-based diet?

Riiiiiiight.

I think I have a better idea of your level of intellect and rationality now.

Bu bye.
 
DA60 said:
You have posted zip links to back up anything you have said...I will waste no further time on this with you.

We are done on this until you post links to unbiased sources to back up ALL your claims.


Good day.
Click to expand...

Though the statement doesn't go very far to proving anything, if there is a money reason to say something specific, you might want to check the facts somewhere else.
 
DA60 said:
In other words...you got nothing.

Bu bye.
Click to expand...
You are the one who made the outrageous claim that meat was unhealthy. The onus is on you to prove it.

Same thing with that ridiculous crap you said about soy being an excellent source of dietary protein.

Pre-WWII soy wasn't even considered to be fit for human consumption except for small amounts of fermented soy, mainly for use as a condiment (soy sauce, miso) in Asia. It was used for nitrogen fixing the soil, to extract soy oil for use as an industrial lubricant and to use as cattle feed, never as a dietary staple for humans.

When Americans started consuming a lot of soy products in lieu of animal fat (margarine instead of butter, Crisco instead of lard, soybean oil instead of beef talow) the country's heart disease and cancer rates skyrocketed.
 
Last edited:
Muhammed said:
Pre-WWII soy wasn't even considered to be fit for human consumption except for small amounts of fermented soy, mainly for use as a condiment (soy sauce, miso) in Asia. It was used for nitrogen fixing the soil, to extract soy oil for use as an industrial lubricant and to use as cattle feed, never as a dietary staple for humans.
Click to expand...

False.

Early Uses. Soybeans were grown for centuries in Asia mainly for their seeds. These were used in preparing a large variety of fresh, fermented and dried food products that were considered indispensable to oriental diets. Soybeans were not used to any great extent for forage in Asia.
Click to expand...
Origin, History and Uses of Soybean
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom