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Are men in the western world losing their masculinity?

Are Western men becoming less masculine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 38.1%

  • No

    Votes: 19 45.2%

  • Meatloaf Sandwich

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Total voters
    42
I think maybe this is happening to some extent, but I think to a larger extent, the definitions of what is masculine are changing.
 
Lack of exercise and strength training reduces testosterone levels (so can overtraining but that's not a problem with 99.9999% of men). That explains the decline in testosterone levels and sperm counts of men in the western developed world more than anything else does.
 
Well when the girls want to be guys and the guys want to be girls and you throw in a big dose of the PC mindset you get the mess we live in.
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Lack of exercise and strength training reduces testosterone levels (so can overtraining but that's not a problem with 99.9999% of men). That explains the decline in testosterone levels and sperm counts of men in the western developed world more than anything else does.
Click to expand...
This seems very likely. This and the attendant ****ty processed diet that goes with such sedentary lifestyle choices.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...

Link?
 
Peter Grimm said:
I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.

As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...

So - masculinity is defined by: clothing, sports, music, choice of alcohol, and conversation.

So being masculine to you is?

Sports (likely: football)
Drinking (likely: beer)
Music (I'm assuming country and metal since both seem 'rough' and 'favor drinking and ****ing')
Clothing (what's masculine here? 1980's - 1950's? Define what 'masculine clothes' are please)

Testosterone levels: So declining testosterone levels = being less masculine (Than who, Butch Cassidy?) So woman who go through menopause are no longer capable of being feminine because their estrogen levels have dropped?

Do you realize your concept of masculine that you've presented is really: a rock-n-roll beer swilling meathead who's opinionated and just outright gross.

Somewhere in the last few decades masculinity took on a silly concept that - as your post shows - relies on superficial cultural and other things, mainly 'entertainment interests' - and a singular hormonal level that does fluctuate likely over time and between cultures (etc).

And this is an issue of maturity: whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.
Click to expand...

You know my father's a minister - as was his father. And my Grandparents were both in the war. None of them exemplified the 'stereotypical jock male' that drinks and so on like you seem to define as 'masculine' but they certainly aren't 'feminine' . . . so I don't know what type of 'guys' you're referring to here.

Maybe you should research what masculinity *has been* in the past - the Victorian version of masculinity was refined and not at all an ignorant beer swilling baffoon of a troll.

"Masculine" is a social concept - it's cultural. It fluctuates. It is not rooted in science nor is it static.

- Why isn't having a good work ethic showing up in people's concerns? Taking care of family needs? Being well educated? Being mature and trustworthy? Etc?
 
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Kreton said:
That hair was unlawfully taken from you without your consent. You have rights. This is America. SUE SUE SUEEEEE!
Click to expand...
Tom Cruise would.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...

Wait a second. Aren't you same guy who said being gay was a choice and was not genetic?

How old were you when you decided to be straight? Was it a traumatic choice for you? Did you try the gay side first? What finally pushed you over the fence to the straight side?
 
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.
Click to expand...
Just an FYI from us "old men" - we thought the men of the 80's were a bunch of pansies. ;)




Peter Grimm said:
As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...
There have been studies that show a distinct drop in sperm count in relation to the concentration of certain farm chemicals in drinking water. I don't know if they also measured testosterone in those studies.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
So - masculinity is defined by: clothing, sports, music, choice of alcohol, and conversation.

So being masculine to you is?

Sports (likely: football)
Drinking (likely: beer)
Music (I'm assuming country and metal since both seem 'rough' and 'favor drinking and ****ing')
Clothing (what's masculine here? 1980's - 1950's? Define what 'masculine clothes' are please)

Testosterone levels: So declining testosterone levels = being less masculine (Than who, Butch Cassidy?) So woman who go through menopause are no longer capable of being feminine because their estrogen levels have dropped?

Do you realize your concept of masculine that you've presented is really: a rock-n-roll beer swilling meathead who's opinionated and just outright gross.

Somewhere in the last few decades masculinity took on a silly concept that - as your post shows - relies on superficial cultural and other things, mainly 'entertainment interests' - and a singular hormonal level that does fluctuate likely over time and between cultures (etc).

And this is an issue of maturity: whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.



You know my father's a minister - as was his father. And my Grandparents were both in the war. None of them exemplified the 'stereotypical jock male' that drinks and so on like you seem to define as 'masculine' but they certainly aren't 'feminine' . . . so I don't know what type of 'guys' you're referring to here.

Maybe you should research what masculinity *has been* in the past - the Victorian version of masculinity was refined and not at all an ignorant beer swilling baffoon of a troll.

"Masculine" is a social concept - it's cultural. It fluctuates. It is not rooted in science nor is it static.

- Why isn't having a good work ethic showing up in people's concerns? Taking care of family needs? Being well educated? Being mature and trustworthy? Etc?
Click to expand...

Dickwad=man
/thread
 
Peter Grimm said:
MInternet Journal of Urology, 2004:

"There have been a number of studies over the past 15-20 years … which suggest that sperm counts in man are on the decline. Since these changes are recent and appear to have occurred internationally, it has been presumed that they reflect adverse effects of environmental or lifestyle factors on the male rather than, for example, genetic changes in susceptibility. If the decrease in sperm counts were to continue at the rate that it is then in a few years we will witness widespread male infertility."
Click to expand...
Many animal populations get to a point where reproduction starts dropping as the population continues to increase. If this is world wide I'd wonder if there was a lower sperm count (on average) in high population areas.

We might also be seeing effects from multiple sources - like the farm chemicals mentioned previously.
 
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American men during the Victorian era were more "feminine" than the standard of masculinity today, by far.

It's not that men are losing their masculinity, it's that it is transitioning into different forms as it always has.

Male babies used to be dressed in pink because it was the color of vigor, and female babies in blue because it was subdued and demure. The counter-culture to that flipped it. Now we are seeing counter-culture to the counter-culture.

This cycle repeats over and over throughout history. Focusing on the past 15-20 years of America is a micro-snippet of a much larger trend.

And by the way... the whole argument about biological determinism? It's bull****. Pick up a history book for god sake and see that men are not this static gender norm that has existed throughout all time. Things are always in flux.
 
I guess it depends on where you live and the lifestyle you pursue. My interests and farm lead me to be involved with lots of men and women into lots of outdoor activities and the men are still very masculine. And women respect them.

The urban males of Seattle are also very masculine but having lived in NJ and worked in Manhattan, I know that's not always the case. But the men here are very outdoors oriented as well....they are either climbing, kayaking, or sailing every weekend.
 
sneakosview said:
Well when the girls want to be guys and the guys want to be girls and you throw in a big dose of the PC mindset you get the mess we live in.
Click to expand...

Could be. Both genders after all have testosterone. Just that we had more historically.

Perhaps by male testosterone dropping and female testosterone increasing it may level up one day. What a society that would be?
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Testosterone levels: So declining testosterone levels = being less masculine (Than who, Butch Cassidy?) So woman who go through menopause are no longer capable of being feminine because their estrogen levels have dropped?

Do you realize your concept of masculine that you've presented is really: a rock-n-roll beer swilling meathead who's opinionated and just outright gross.

Somewhere in the last few decades masculinity took on a silly concept that - as your post shows - relies on superficial cultural and other things, mainly 'entertainment interests' - and a singular hormonal level that does fluctuate likely over time and between cultures (etc).

"Masculine" is a social concept - it's cultural. It fluctuates. It is not rooted in science nor is it static.
Click to expand...

What do you mean?

Testosterone is directly related to masculinity as defined by having more muscle and masculine behavior? It is a biological hormone quantity of which is higher in men and differentiates men in behavior from women.

The OP is right that society may change if the level of testosterone drop to that of women for instance. It is 7-8 times as high today but what kind of society it may be then is put in question here.
 
It was hard to vote in this poll because of the way it is worded. What is masculine? One could ask. What is feminine?

Overall, I would say men are displaying a weaker core as a whole in the western world, but there are many examples of those that are defining masculinity in a new way in this age without having to carry the pack of previous prejudices and violent tendencies from the past. This article, by Alla Berdnikova, gives a unique perspective of what many young women still want from a man. There Is Nothing Sexier Than A Man Who
 
Canell said:
Yes. With all this plastic and poison (chemistry) around us, what do you expect? :(
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That and eating soy. What's this thing with people eating soy. They are even putting soy in school lunches.

Soy is not food. It is industrial waste.
 
Muhammed said:
That and eating soy. What's this thing with people eating soy. They are even putting soy in school lunches.

Soy is not food. It is industrial waste.
Click to expand...

Soy is (theoretically) from a soybean.

It does not have to necessarily be 'industrial waste'.

It's actually a great, natural, vegan source of protein.
 
DA60 said:
Soy is (theoretically) from a soybean.

It does not have to necessarily be 'industrial waste'.

It's actually a great, natural, vegan source of protein.
Click to expand...
First of all, a vegan is an unhealthy diet.

Furthermore, soy is toxic. It contains endocrine disrupting compounds such as phytoestrogens. Studies also show that dietary soy decreases serum testosterone levels.

Meat is the best source of protein.
 
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Muhammed said:
First of all, a vegan is an unhealthy diet.
Click to expand...
Ummm, no it is not (provided you include the proper vitamin supplements). It is far healthier then a meat-based diet (with certain vitamin supplements) and FAR less expensive. And it takes up far, FAR less of the world's resources on a per person basis.

'The amount of grains fed to US livestock is sufficient to feed about 840 million people who follow a plant-based diet'

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full

How EXACTLY is a vegan diet unhealthy?

Furthermore, soy is toxic. It contains endocrine disrupting compounds such as phytoestrogens.Studies also show that dietary soy decreases serum testosterone levels
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Nonsense.

Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis

Elsevier

Meat is the best source of protein.
Click to expand...

I did not say it was the best, I said it was 'great' as a vegan source of protein.

And meat is not the best source if protein...whey is much better.

It is easier on the liver and other organs, avoids many red meat long-term health problems, the body absorbs the protein more completely then meat and is much cheaper then meat.
 
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Why does everyone think they invented the phrase "Grow a pair" in this century?
 
DA, the fact you said "provided you include the proper vitamin supplements" to support the argument that it is a healthy diet made me laugh.
 
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