• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Are men in the western world losing their masculinity?

Are Western men becoming less masculine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 38.1%

  • No

    Votes: 19 45.2%

  • Meatloaf Sandwich

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Total voters
    42
Peter Grimm

Peter Grimm

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Messages
10,348
Reaction score
2,426
Location
The anals of history
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
 
Yes. With all this plastic and poison (chemistry) around us, what do you expect? :(
 
Canell said:
Yes. With all this plastic and poison (chemistry) around us, what do you expect? :(
Click to expand...

I hear you man. Ever since reading these studies, I've done everything I can to get rid of plastic in my life but it's literally impossible in the modern world to do so. EVERYTHING comes packaged in plastic.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...

Good.
 
I swear I left my masculinity around here somewhere, but I can't remember where.
 
MInternet Journal of Urology, 2004:

"There have been a number of studies over the past 15-20 years … which suggest that sperm counts in man are on the decline. Since these changes are recent and appear to have occurred internationally, it has been presumed that they reflect adverse effects of environmental or lifestyle factors on the male rather than, for example, genetic changes in susceptibility. If the decrease in sperm counts were to continue at the rate that it is then in a few years we will witness widespread male infertility."
 
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...

So this appears to be two separate issues.

1- social conventions that define what is masculine and what is not and how those are evolving
2- the impact of environmental toxins on testosterone levels

Which is of greater concern to you?
Do you blame environmental factors for the decline (if in fact it is accurate)?
Why is this bad?
 
Peter Grimm said:
I hear you man. Ever since reading these studies, I've done everything I can to get rid of plastic in my life but it's literally impossible in the modern world to do so. EVERYTHING comes packaged in plastic.
Click to expand...

It's not just food. Even the (plastic) laptop I'm typing with and the sofa I'm sitting on (rubber foam) are made of synthetic material. :3oops:
There are researches that even small deviations of hormones can have enormous consequences and our male endocrine system is literally bombarded with chemicals. :boom
 
opendebate said:
So this appears to be two separate issues.

1- social conventions that define what is masculine and what is not and how those are evolving
2- the impact of environmental toxins on testosterone levels

Which is of greater concern to you?
Do you blame environmental factors for the decline (if in fact it is accurate)?
Why is this bad?
Click to expand...

I once experimented with anabolic steroids, which, if you didn't know, are nothing more than synthetic testosterone. When one injects steroids in to the body, the effect is that testosterone levels are raised to a level much higher than is normally found.

The problem with testosterone supplementation is that when you stop administering the drug, which I did, your natural testosterone levels are almost nonexistent for about a month. Slowly they creep back to normal, and then everything is fine.

The reason I bring this up is because I am a man who has personal experience, then, with unusually high, unusually low, and normal levels of serum testosterone. I can tell you, the difference is dramatic.

When testosterone is abnormally high, well-being is also high. You feel invincible, like you can accomplish anything. You're not afraid of anyone or anything. You turn in to a loud, boisterous, Jersey Shore type of a d-bag, but it feels amazing. Body fat goes down, even when you eat like a pig. Your self-confidence is sky high.

When testosterone is abnormally low, you feel sluggish. You cry during movies. You feel depressed all the time, irritable, and you want to just hide away and not be seen. Body fat goes up, even though your diet hasn't changed. You sleep all day and have little motivation for anything. Everything makes you jumpy, you feel weak and out of control.

When testosterone is normal, then you're, well, normal.

That's how it is for a man. So clearly, it's better and healthier to have a good amount of testosterone in the system. That's why it matters. And my experiences with the psychological effects are why I think that certain behaviors are indicators of low testosterone in certain men, rather than just being social conventions.
 
opendebate said:
So this appears to be two separate issues.

1- social conventions that define what is masculine and what is not and how those are evolving
2- the impact of environmental toxins on testosterone levels

Which is of greater concern to you?
Do you blame environmental factors for the decline (if in fact it is accurate)?
Why is this bad?
Click to expand...

To answer your other questions: Which is of greater concern to me? I think they're linked. I think a lower level of serum testosterone causes changes in behavior like we've seen on a macro level the past couple decades. I think it's environmentally caused, or it's something that's changed in our diets.

From what I've read, suspected culprits are chlorpyrifos, carbaryl, phthalates, and PPP. These are all chemicals found in pesticides and plastics which researchers believe could be leading to the changes.
 
Canell said:
Yes. With all this plastic and poison (chemistry) around us, what do you expect? :(
Click to expand...

Eunuchs and a slide into byzantine politcs!
 
If modern technology is causing men to be less masculine - what's modern technology doing to women?
 
No. Western men are still as masculine as ever. I don't feel threatened by technology, I wield technology like a mighty falus and that makes me better than anyone else who doesn't.

If anything, it's stupid people who are less "masculine" and less of anything in the western world. But stupid people have never been particularly masculine to begin with or alpha males.

I said this before. Real men, alpha males, are not the hyped up stereotypical douchebags who lift weights and can't speak properly. That's the alpha male for stupid people. The real alpha male are men who know how to wield real power and technology is power. it always was and now it's more than ever.
An intelligent man in a fit physical condition who has the right technological knowledge and is not a loudmouth douchebag about it, is the real alpha male, and has always been. And this is how it always was and how it will always be.
 
Rainman05 said:
No. Western men are still as masculine as ever. I don't feel threatened by technology, I wield technology like a mighty falus and that makes me better than anyone else who doesn't.

If anything, it's stupid people who are less "masculine" and less of anything in the western world. But stupid people have never been particularly masculine to begin with or alpha males.

I said this before. Real men, alpha males, are not the hyped up stereotypical douchebags who lift weights and can't speak properly. That's the alpha male for stupid people. The real alpha male are men who know how to wield real power and technology is power. it always was and now it's more than ever.
An intelligent man in a fit physical condition who has the right technological knowledge and is not a loudmouth douchebag about it, is the real alpha male, and has always been. And this is how it always was and how it will always be.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but if you don't like beer, you're a really big *****.
 
Should Men Sit Down to Pee? | Mental Floss

10 Reasons Why You Should Teach Your Sons To Pee Sitting Down | Babble

Should Men Sit Down To Pee? [POLL]

Swedish Left Party moves to ban men urinating while standing

Physicists Suggest Men Should Sit Down to Pee | Bro Code, Hot Girls, Funny Stories and Videos, Frat Music, College Stories, Sports News and Videos - BroBible.com

This is what our society has sunk to. A hundred years ago this question would have been laughed at, because of it's petty nature. There appears to be more to this phenomenon then testosterone levels......it's society trying to get men to find their inner-girl. This whole idea of a gender-free society is misguided.
 
Beyond the lion's share of power and influence, men aren't losing anything. Well, aside from the ever delightful desolation of our hairlines, but that's a man's cross to bear. An abundance of testosterone has its advantages.

There were bound to be such ill-informed, reactionary concerns as women took their due place alongside us. Equality's a good thing, not a retrograde step. If you're a man who pisses and moans about some chimerical source of oppression or unfounded fears of imposed inferiority, you're no better than the weak-minded, fringe feminazis who are unable to think for themselves. Enjoy that.
 
Peter Grimm said:
To answer your other questions: Which is of greater concern to me? I think they're linked. I think a lower level of serum testosterone causes changes in behavior like we've seen on a macro level the past couple decades. I think it's environmentally caused, or it's something that's changed in our diets.

From what I've read, suspected culprits are chlorpyrifos, carbaryl, phthalates, and PPP. These are all chemicals found in pesticides and plastics which researchers believe could be leading to the changes.
Click to expand...

Nah, the simple answer to testosterone decline in the gen pop is obesity.
 
Kreton said:
Evolution. Mother Nature has determined people today are far too stupid and is limiting our breeding capabilities. I think we should file a class action against her.
Click to expand...
She owes me a full head of hair, the bitch.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I believe so, and it's quite concerning on the one hand, yet unsurprising on the other.

I'm a young man, but I've noticed that even over my short life men have gotten more and more feminine with every passing year. It's little things, from the type of music they listen to, the sudden glorification by many of gays, the disinterest in beer and sports, the sudden interest in telephones and gossip, the obsession with skinny jeans and metrosexual fashion, and a general passive, whining demeanor you didn't see even 10 years ago.

Then I ran in to this report, which shows that blood tests show average testosterone levels for men are down by 20% since the 80's, and it's not age related. That's a significant decline.... but it makes sense. Look at how men acted in the 80's compared with today.




As Reuters reported in 2006:

A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

“The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

***

The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

***

It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
Click to expand...

Most of those things are entirely superficial. Masculinity resides in things like stoical indifference to challenge. Irritation at a perceived lack of masculinity is itself a sign of a declined masculinity.

I have a great fondness for beer (and for whiskey), but those things don't make me a man.
 
Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, I don't see how that is inherently negative. My vote is clear on this one: Meatloaf Sandwich.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom