Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Well isn't that the beauty of two people who share similar relationship expectations; being able to find each other, marry, and go about their marriage however they see fit?

I'm sure a lot of people would question my marital construct and many, at the same time, approve. It makes for interesting conversation, but I'm not about to alter my life to please some people. It's not about them, yet I do like to talk about things.

No view or lifestyle is universally applied.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

I doubt if a lot of women would just go along with you.

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If they like what they see or agree with what I'm doing they certainly might. :shrug:

In any eventuality, it's hardly like I'm going to be forcing my way of doing things on any woman against her will here. Women ultimately hold far more power in "choosing" their partners than men do.

That much is common knowledge.

I have my OWN wants and desires. They may or may not fall in line with yours, but I certainly do not need to be "lead" anywhere. If I agree, it's because I agree, not because I want or need a leader to tell me how to think or feel or how to make decisions.

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I don't see where I ever denied that. As I said before, ultimately, a woman is not going to allow herself to be lead anywhere she does not wish to go in the first place.

It's also not like most men are looking to "micromanage" a relationship either. We honestly don't really care enough to.

Men and women have different interests in this regard more often than not.

By and large, men tend to prefer to feel like we've got things "under control" (regardless of whether that is only what women allow us to think or not :lol: ). Women usually prefer to feel secure.

This isn't universally the case, of course; but I would certainly say that it is true in the majority of cases.

Oh, I see. So if a woman takes the "lead" then she is bitchy, bossy and domineering. How very interesting.

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As I'm sure you've noticed from talking with me on here, I have something of a "dominant" personality. :lol:

While I am a fairly easy going guy all told (comes with being an introvert, I expect), I really don't take kindly to having people attempt to impose their will upon me. It tends to be something of an "unstoppable force vs immovable object" situation.

This is true regardless of a person's gender, though it tends to be an especially unattractive trait in a potential romantic partner.

You want a woman who does everything you say and has no mind or personality of her own? Who just agrees with you all the time?

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Not at all. I'm perfectly open to disagreement and differing opinions when it comes to deciding where a relationship is headed.

I simply prefer to be the one in the driver's seat when it comes to actually getting there. If a woman and I can't agree on the direction, we don't have to ride together. :shrug:

Also, keep in mind that this only really applies to things that I give a damn about in the first place. All told, that isn't a particularly long list, and they might not even be the same things a woman who would agree to head in my direction on them would be particularly interested in anyway.

My mother, for instance; never really cared about not having a career while she was raising us, whereas my father tends to be a workaholic.

I agree. There should be open and healthy communication in any relationship. Granted, we all have our "bitchy" moments though. Lol!

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Absolutely.

Ha-ha! That is soooo goofy!

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But true.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

To be fair, I think many women do have an expectation that a man be confident enough to "take charge" of at least some aspects of a relationship, and they do often tend to prefer men who possess that quality over those who don't. This might not necessarily be true of all women, but I do think it is true of most (it's certainly more true of women than the reverse is true of men, in any case).

However, it should also be noted that "taking the lead" doesn't necessarily imply that a man need be domineering either. It's perfectly possible to be "the man" in a relationship without going into full-on "Tigger" mode. :lol:

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Exactly. I suppose there are exceptions, and of course there are medical and other reasons that the woman would need to become the breadwinner and the man a house husband--in a for better or worse world, we all adapt to whatever life throws at us. But I just haven't observed any happy marriages where the woman assumed the dominant role and/or was the bread winner and the guy wasn't cut out for that. It is just difficult for a woman to respect a man like that while no such expectation is placed on the woman. And I think that is because we men and women are just wired differently.

But dominant does not mean over bearing or bully or abusive. That is something else altogether. It is just that the man instinctively is wired to be the protector and provider -- hunter/gatherer, and the woman is just wired to appreciate that. At the same time, in a good marriage, they see themselves as one, a partnership, equals, and wouldn't have it any other way.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

If they like what they see or agree with what I'm doing they certainly might. :shrug:

In any eventuality, it's hardly like I'm going to be forcing my way of doing things on any woman against her will here. Women ultimately hold far more power in "choosing" their partners than men do.

That much is common knowledge.

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If you want to have a discussion with me, then please do not shorten my quotes. You failed to answer a number of points I made in my first paragraph. When you do that, then we can continue with our discussion.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

If you want to have a discussion with me, then please do not shorten my quotes. You failed to answer a number of points I made in my first paragraph. When you do that, then we can continue with our discussion.

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To which points in particular do you refer?

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

To which points in particular do you refer?

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Okay well QUESTION. :lol: Wondering what issues in which you think women would need to be lead.

ChrisL said:

Like what? You'll have to be more specific.

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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

To be fair, I think many women do have an expectation that a man be confident enough to "take charge" of at least some aspects of a relationship, and they do often tend to prefer men who possess that quality over those who don't. This might not necessarily be true of all women, but I do think it is true of most (it's certainly more true of women than the reverse is true of men, in any case).

However, it should also be noted that "taking the lead" doesn't necessarily imply that a man need be domineering either. It's perfectly possible to be "the man" in a relationship without going into full-on "Tigger" mode. :lol:

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Gathomas88 said:

In any eventuality, it's hardly like I'm going to be forcing my way of doing things on any woman against her will here. Women ultimately hold far more power in "choosing" their partners than men do.

By and large, men tend to prefer to feel like we've got things "under control" (regardless of whether that is only what women allow us to think or not :lol: ). Women usually prefer to feel secure.

This isn't universally the case, of course; but I would certainly say that it is true in the majority of cases.

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I don't think it's about *leadership* and *having someone else make all the decisions for you*
I think what most people want is a relationship in which both people either share responsibilities - or it balances out in some fashion. Ultimately: no one wants to marry a bum, a shiftless nobody who does nothing. Everyone wants to be with someone who: A) Upholds their 'end of the deal' (whatever that may be), B) Is relatively stable, not too clingy or needy. Both men and women are drawn to individuals who are not overly reliant. Men and women both declare a lack of 'personal insecurity' and 'a lack of self confidence' to be major put-offs for any relationships.

All in all: both men and women want a partner who is capable, stable, and reliable. I've never heard someone say otherwise, even those who are dominant and want a submissive. They still want her to be confident and capable of something.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

TheGirlNextDoor said:

So..because I would prefer a man who has a job and ambitions like *I* do...that's shallow?

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Ah...no??? I thought I was clear that the notion it was shallow for women to want a successful man was wrong. I'm not sure how you got the opposite impression.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

:shrug: It just kind of happens in my experience. Do what you're going to do, and be confident about how you do it, and a lot of women will just kind of go along with you. They even seem to like it.

Beyond that, bossy, domineering women who are liable to second guess or excessively interfere in what I'm trying to do tend to get on my nerves. While the occasional bit of constructive criticism is certainly called for, and I can handle even overtly bitchy women in small doses, much more than that is eventually going to lead me to push back, which tends to be less than productive all the way around.

Frankly, given how often they complain about partners that they can "push around" , it wouldn't appear that most women appreciate the more submissive types of men any way. It is pretty damn rare to see a man complain about about the reverse situation.

This isn't to say that both partners can't exert influence over the relationship. To the contrary, I'd argue that women hold more influence than most men realize. They simply exert it in more subtle ways under many circumstances.

A "real man" shouldn't have to bully his woman to gain her respect, and a "real woman" shouldn't have to be a shrew to make her voice heard in a relationship.

The man may be the "head" of the houshold under many circumstances, but the woman is the neck and the heart. The neck turns the head and the heart keeps things running.

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Dude, who else is going to give you the time of day except women who are already pre-disposed to dealing with your attitude on relationships? For all we know, you and I have met at some point, but I wouldn't factor into your experience because I would sooner eat my hand than get in a relationship with someone who has such contrary beliefs to myself. You can't make statements about all women based on who you've dated when, obviously, someone who doesn't like your view wouldn't date you.

It's really telling that a woman who doesn't fit your model of submissiveness is "bossy," but if you do it, it's the way things should be, and apparently how all women want it to be.

Of course no well-adjusted woman wants a wimp. No well-adjusted man does either. Being a wimp is a trait of someone who is not mature enough to be in a relationship, and so is being insecure enough to want one. Duh. And yet you kind of desire it in a woman...

And I hate all this "head versus neck" talk. It means nothing. It's a hollow consultation to soften the blow of basically saying that you expect to get your way because you, as the man, simply know better, and any decent woman should know that you know better and go with it. It's like when parents let their child hold a wrench so they can pretend they're helping fix the sink, and then pat them on the head and go, "Aren't you the best little plumber? Yes, you are!" Don't patronize women, please. We're not stupid.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

Like what? You'll have to be more specific.

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:shrug: well, generally women prefer men who are able to lead. They prefer men who are able to make decisions rather than push decisions off on them. Leading is often either a duty or a risk in a relationship - and women are generally less risk seeking, and prefer that men take on that role. They prefer men who are willing (for example) to initiate the relationship by asking them out (thus accepting the risk of rejection), they prefer men who are willing to initiate marriage by asking for their hand, they even prefer male bosses to female bosses. It is far more common for a woman to want a man who will take control in the bedroom than the reverse - which is one of the reasons why men initiate sex far more often than women. If I had a nickel for every time I asked my wife where she wanted to eat out and she said "I don't know - you pick".... well... I'd have a pocketful of nickels, to be sure. But that's just a typical, anecdotal example.

Women are generally attracted to, and want, men who are dominant - who are alpha males, who are leaders - they are hardwired for it, just as men are (generally) hardwired to want to be that guy. Women are more likely than men to prefer to be led. :shrug: It's biological.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

And I hate all this "head versus neck" talk. It means nothing. It's a hollow consultation to soften the blow of basically saying that you expect to get your way because you, as the man, simply know better, and any decent woman should know that you know better and go with it. It's like when parents let their child hold a wrench so they can pretend they're helping fix the sink, and then pat them on the head and go, "Aren't you the best little plumber? Yes, you are!" Don't patronize women, please. We're not stupid.

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You are missing what he is saying. Not being leader =/= being patronized, any more than your boss at work tells you aren't you just the cutest little writer in the world, yes you are...

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

Okay well QUESTION. :lol: Wondering what issues in which you think women would need to be lead.

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I don't think saying that women "need to be lead" would be the right way to look at things here. I think it's more the case that men simply tend to have more assertive personalities than women, and a mindset more focused on the practical concerns that tend to go into being an effective protector and provider.

Women tend to appreciate those qualities in men. They also often aren't focused on the same things in life as men anyway. Where more material matters are concerned, at least, this often leads women to allow men to play more "dominant" roles in male / female relationships.

Again, however; I think it would be a mistake to say that this means that women are without a will of their own, or that men have complete control.

It's ultimately a partnership. It simply happens to be the case that the male and female members of that partnership contribute in different ways more often than not. Men tend to focus on the more material aspects of maintaining the partnership, while women focus more on maintaining the emotional bonds represented by the relationship itself.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

cpwill said:

You are missing what he is saying. Not being leader =/= being patronized, any more than your boss at work tells you aren't you just the cutest little writer in the world, yes you are...

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The thing is, the way most guys who think this carry it out, I don't believe that crap, because that's not what I actually see them doing. What I see them doing -- and I will borrow ChrisL's very apt metaphor -- is basically looking for a mommy to pick up their socks, only this one won't tell them what to do, or even make much fuss about what she would like to do.

And even in rare cases where the claims about "the neck" aren't simply disingenuous, it is still insulting to try to tell all women how they should be and how their relationships should be. If that works for you, fine. But you don't get to tell me or any other woman what works for us.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

cpwill said:

:shrug: well, generally women prefer men who are able to lead. They prefer men who are able to make decisions rather than push decisions off on them. Leading is often either a duty or a risk in a relationship - and women are generally less risk seeking, and prefer that men take on that role. They prefer men who are willing (for example) to initiate the relationship by asking them out (thus accepting the risk of rejection), they prefer men who are willing to initiate marriage by asking for their hand, they even prefer male bosses to female bosses. It is far more common for a woman to want a man who will take control in the bedroom than the reverse - which is one of the reasons why men initiate sex far more often than women. If I had a nickel for every time I asked my wife where she wanted to eat out and she said "I don't know - you pick".... well... I'd have a pocketful of nickels, to be sure. But that's just a typical, anecdotal example.

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Well geez, for someone who is so young and still practically a newlywed, you sure seem to an AWFUL lot about women and what they want. You must have been QUITE the stud when you were available on the dating scene since you know us women SO well. Lol! What makes you think your personal experience count anywhere except in your own mind?

Also, how many times, when you wife says "you pick" and you pick Chinese, does she say, "well, I'm not really in the mood for Chinese tonight."? Hmmmmm? :lol:

Women are generally attracted to, and want, men who are dominant - who are alpha males, who are leaders - they are hardwired for it, just as men are (generally) hardwired to want to be that guy. Women are more likely than men to prefer to be led. :shrug: It's biological.

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My, my you should write a book Mr. I Know What Women Want. :mrgreen:

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

The thing is, the way most guys who think this carry it out, I don't believe that crap, because that's not what I actually see them doing. What I see them doing -- and I will borrow ChrisL's very apt metaphor -- is basically looking for a mommy to pick up their socks, only this one won't tell them what to do, or even make much fuss about what she would like to do.

And even in rare cases where the claims about "the neck" aren't simply disingenuous, it is still insulting to try to tell all women how they should be and how their relationships should be. If that works for you, fine. But you don't get to tell me or any other woman what works for us.

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I wonder if some men want a woman or a child?

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

I don't think saying that women "need to be lead" would be the right way to look at things here. I think it's more the case that men simply tend to have more assertive personalities than women, and a mindset more focused on the practical concerns that tend to go into being an effective protector and provider.

Women tend to appreciate those qualities in men. They also often aren't focused on the same things in life as men anyway. Where more material matters are concerned, at least, this often leads women to allow men to play more "dominant" roles in male / female relationships.

Again, however; I think it would be a mistake to say that this means that women are without a will of their own, or that men have complete control.

It's ultimately a partnership. It simply happens to be the case that the male and female members of that partnership contribute in different ways more often than not. Men tend to focus on the more material aspects of maintaining the partnership, while women focus more on maintaining the emotional bonds represented by the relationship itself.

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But you said that women want to be led. That is what you said. Now how do they want or need to be led? In what ways? You keep saying that women like it, but where is your evidence of this?

I understand that men and women might have different needs from the relationship, but that is not one having more control or "leading" the other.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Aunt Spiker said:

I don't think it's about *leadership* and *having someone else make all the decisions for you*
I think what most people want is a relationship in which both people either share responsibilities - or it balances out in some fashion. Ultimately: no one wants to marry a bum, a shiftless nobody who does nothing. Everyone wants to be with someone who: A) Upholds their 'end of the deal' (whatever that may be), B) Is relatively stable, not too clingy or needy. Both men and women are drawn to individuals who are not overly reliant. Men and women both declare a lack of 'personal insecurity' and 'a lack of self confidence' to be major put-offs for any relationships.

All in all: both men and women want a partner who is capable, stable, and reliable. I've never heard someone say otherwise, even those who are dominant and want a submissive. They still want her to be confident and capable of something.

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Exactly. It is a partnership. It simply happens to be a partnership which men and women approach with very different goals in mind and to which they bring very different strengths and weaknesses.

More often than not, men do tend to take a more "dominant" role in the relationship for that reason. However, it would be a mistake to assume that this means that men's authority is, or ever was, absolute.

Women exert strong influence as well. They simply tend to do so in different areas, by different means.

I also agree with regards to personal competence. I actually prefer a capable and intelligent woman to a push over. I don't even necessarily mind a "feisty" woman either.

I'm simply not fond of women with domineering personalities. :shrug:

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

Exactly. It is a partnership. It simply happens to be a partnership which men and women approach with very different goals in mind and to which they bring very different strengths and weaknesses.

More often than not, men do tend to take a more "dominant" role in the relationship for that reason. However, it would be a mistake to assume that this means that men's authority is, or ever was, absolute.

Women exert strong influence as well. They simply tend to do so in different areas, by different means.

I also agree with regards to personal competence. I actually preferable a capable and intelligent women to a push over. I don't even necessarily mind a "feisty" woman either.

I'm simply not fond of women with domineering personalities. :shrug:

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I think all this is reliant upon the people involved in the relationship. YOU don't like domineering personalities and that's fine, but you don't speak for everyone, and certainly less traditional relationships can also be successful because those people are not you.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Dude, who else is going to give you the time of day except women who are already pre-disposed to dealing with your attitude on relationships? For all we know, you and I have met at some point, but I wouldn't factor into your experience because I would sooner eat my hand than get in a relationship with someone who has such contrary beliefs to myself. You can't make statements about all women based on who you've dated when, obviously, someone who doesn't like your view wouldn't date you.

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Are you going to deny that men generally tend to be more dominant in heterosexual relationships, and that relationships with that balance reversed often wind up running into problems on a long term basis?

It's really telling that a woman who doesn't fit your model of submissiveness is "bossy," but if you do it, it's the way things should be, and apparently how all women want it to be.

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A person's "bossiness" is determined independently of their gender.

The simple fact of the matter is that I don't mix particularly well with domineering personality types. Unless we're talking about a boss / employee type relationship, most men don't.

A lot of women, on the other hand, actually prefer men who are able to take a dominant role in a relationship.

Duh. And yet you kind of desire it in a woman...

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Not at all. As I told AuntSpiker, I find a wide variety of women desirable. I can handle, shy, intelligent, or even feisty personalities without a problem.

"Bossiness," however; simply isn't a trait that I find to be particularly feminine.

And I hate all this "head versus neck" talk. It means nothing. It's a hollow consultation to soften the blow of basically saying that you expect to get your way because you, as the man, simply know better, and any decent woman should know that you know better and go with it. It's like when parents let their child hold a wrench so they can pretend they're helping fix the sink, and then pat them on the head and go, "Aren't you the best little plumber? Yes, you are!" Don't patronize women, please. We're not stupid.

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"If mommy's not happy, no one's happy."

Sound familiar?

Even in male dominant relationships, women hold a great deal of power and influence. A woman who is dissatisfied with the state of her marriage is fully capable of tearing a family apart.

It is in a man's best interests to respect her input and opinions as such.

ChrisL said:

Well geez, for someone who is so young and still practically a newlywed, you sure seem to an AWFUL lot about women and what they want. You must have been QUITE the stud when you were available on the dating scene since you know us women SO well. Lol! What makes you think your personal experience count anywhere except in your own mind?

Also, how many times, when you wife says "you pick" and you pick Chinese, does she say, "well, I'm not really in the mood for Chinese tonight."? Hmmmmm? :lol:

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Ummm... Chris, CP really isn't all that young (he's all of 5 years younger than you, if even that).

No offense or anything, but you've also never been married, and you're single right now.

Again, no offense, but what you posted above is kind of a weak criticism of his point and you know it. :lol:

Also, didn't we already say that women often exert influence even in male dominated relationships, but that it simply happens to be in more subtle ways than men?

ChrisL said:

But you said that women want to be led.

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I said that most women tend to prefer dominant men who are willing and able to take the lead when necessary.

You keep saying that women like it, but where is your evidence of this?

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Common cultural knowledge? The opinions of most of the women in this thread?

I don't think I've seen a single woman come forward so far saying that they actually prefer submissive men.

How many men, on the other hand, complain about domineering women?

ChrisL said:

I think all this is reliant upon the people involved in the relationship. YOU don't like domineering personalities and that's fine, but you don't speak for everyone, and certainly less traditional relationships can also be successful because those people are not you.

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It might very well be my personal preference. However, my preference in this regard is also the preference of most of the male population.

Again, I'm not really sure how you can try to deny the fact that most women tend to prefer "assertive" men who take more dominant roles in relationships.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

Are you going to deny that men generally tend to be more dominant in heterosexual relationships, and that the reverse often winds up running into problems on a long term basis?

A person's "bossiness" is determined independently of their gender.

The simple fact of the matter is that I don't mix particularly well with domineering personality types. Most men don't.

A lot of women, on the other hand, actually prefer men who are able to take a dominant role in a relationship.

Not at all. As I told AuntSpiker, I find a wide variety of women desirable. I can handle, shy, intelligent, or even feisty without personalities without a problem.

"Bossiness," however; simply isn't a trait that I find to be particularly feminine.

"If mommy's not happy, no one's happy."

Sound familiar?

Even in male dominant relationships, women hold a great deal of power. A woman who is dissatisfied with the state of her marriage is fully capable of tearing a family apart.

It is in a man's best interests to respect her input and opinions.

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I wouldn't deny it's a trend for a society full of self-hating women on the whole, but I don't see this consistently reflected in people who are not self-hating, or insecure.

I see everything. All over the map. Some happen to fall into your traditional notions of relationships, at least externally. Many do not. Some are completely egalitarian. Some are not, and have each partner taking control of some aspects -- sometimes the complete reverse of what is "traditional." I see as many different arrangements as there are people, and I see no real difference in longevity.

You're talking out both sides of your mouth, here. You want to be in control, and think all men should be in control, but of course "mommy" has input sufficient to change the course. The classic soothing pile of BS. Which is it?

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I wouldn't deny it's a trend for a society full of self-hating women on the whole, but I don't see this consistently reflected in people who are not self-hating, or insecure.

I see everything. All over the map. Some happen to fall into your traditional notions of relationships, at least externally. Many do not. Some are completely egalitarian. Some are not, and have each partner taking control of some aspects -- sometimes the complete reverse of what is "traditional." I see as many different arrangements as there are people, and I see no real difference in longevity.

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Again, men taking more dominant roles in relationships is the norm. It is the norm is basically every society on Earth where the institution of marriage can be observed to exist.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course; but I don't see how you can try to deny that it is, in fact, the rule in the first place.

I also don't see any evidence whatsoever to suggest that "self-hating" on the part of women has anything to do with it either.

You're talking out both sides of your mouth, here. You want to be in control, and think all men should be in control, but of course "mommy" has input sufficient to change the course. The classic soothing pile of BS. Which is it?

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It's both. Men tend to be the material head of the household, but, barring some sort of abusive relationship where the man basically holds her hostage, the household really cannot function without the consent and effort of the wife.

It is a partnership. It simply happens to be a partnership where both parties involved play different roles.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

Ummm... Chris, CP really isn't all that young (he's all of 5 years younger than you, if even that).

No offense or anything, but you've also never been married, and you're single right now.

Again, no offense, but what you posted above is kind of a weak criticism of his point and you know it. :lol:

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Blabbity-blah-blah, gobbity gook. There is nothing wrong with my criticism of his point. And I thought he was like around your age.

Also, didn't we already say that women often exert influence even in male dominated relationships, but that it simply happens to be in more subtle ways than men?

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So you are saying that women really are the bosses?

I said that most women tend to prefer dominant men who are willing and able to take the lead when necessary.

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There you go again, thinking you know how most women think. :roll: Annoying.

Common cultural knowledge? The opinions of most of the women in this thread?

I don't think I've seen a single woman come forward so far saying that they actually prefer submissive men.

How many men, on the other hand, complain about domineering women?

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Huh? Plenty of women come forward complaining about their domineering husbands. Nobody should be dominating in the relationship. It's supposed to be a partnership of love and mutual respect. Nobody is supposed to rule over another. That's a parent/child relationship, not a spouse/spouse relationship.

It might very well be my personal preference. However, my preference in this regard is also the preference of most of the male population.

Again, I'm not really sure how you can try to deny the fact that most women tend to prefer "assertive" men who take more dominant roles in relationships.

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More blabbity-blah-blah. I don't see how you can say the things you do. You can't know how everyone else thinks.

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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

Blabbity-blah-blah, gobbity gook. There is nothing wrong with my criticism of his point. And I thought he was like around your age.

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It was pretty weak either way regardless. :lol:

So you are saying that women really are the bosses?

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In a way, yes. Again, women are ultimately the gate keepers of sex and reproduction.

A household also cannot really function without the compliance of the wife.

It's a partnership. Men may tend to be more dominant in raw material terms, but this does not mean that women do not also wield essential power and influence.

There you go again, thinking you know how most women think. Annoying.

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I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever to suggest I'm wrong.

A man who cannot serve as a protector or provider, or is submissive to his woman, is mocked and ridiculed by men and women alike.

Is the same true of the reverse situation?

Huh? Plenty of women come forward complaining about their domineering husbands. Nobody should be dominating in the relationship.

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And those same women will then turn right around and talk about how they could never be with a man that let them have too much power in a relationship because they would "walk all over them."

I think a lot of women doth protest too much. :lol:

It's supposed to be a partnership of love and mutual respect. Nobody is supposed to rule over another. That's a parent/child relationship, not a spouse/spouse relationship.

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We're not talking about "rule" here, Chris. We're taking about a partnership where each member plays a different role.

Men are more assertive than women on average, and women are naturally wired to find assertive men attractive in the first place, so men simply tend to be a bit more dominant in heterosexual relationships as a matter of default. Again, this doesn't mean that women do not have a will of their own, or even that they are at a disadvantage to men.

It simply means that men and women approach these kinds of relationships differently.

There's nothing wrong with that. :shrug:

More blabbity-blah-blah. I don't see how you can say the things you do. You can't know how everyone else thinks.

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I can observe general trends. It would seem to be pretty obvious that male dominant relationships are a lot more common than the female dominant variety.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

Again, men taking more dominant roles in relationships is the norm. It is the norm is basically every society on Earth where the institution of marriage can be observed to exist.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course; but I don't see how you can try to deny that it is, in fact, the rule in the first place.

I also don't see any evidence whatsoever to suggest that "self-hating" on the part of women has anything to do with it either.

It's both. Men tend to be the material head of the household, but, barring some sort of abusive relationship where the man basically holds her hostage, the household really cannot function without the consent and effort of the wife.

It is a partnership. It simply happens to be a partnership where both parties involved play different roles.

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That's true in the majority of low-to-mid-quality agricultural societies, but it's split or sometimes non-existent in non-agricultural societies, and in the most advanced agricultural societies. Also, women were the primary "bread winners" in more natural states, as in, they were the ones providing the majority of the sustenance, so you're wrong there too.

In our societies, where we are correcting the imbalance slowly but surely to return to what is actually a more natural state through sheer force of technological will, we are gradually seeing much more diversity in how people "do" relationships. As I just said to CP in another thread, it will take time for social attitudes to catch up. So yes, it is absolutely an issue of women having little self-respect, in many cases. Womens' self-esteem is still extremely low in America, on the whole, and this is borne out by study after study after study.

In other societies that are further along than we are, or in our own with women who are more self-possessed, I see an endless mix and match of dynamics. And it might surprise you to know that I myself am actually not an egalitarian. How that breaks down for me is not convenient to typify -- some aspects are superficially "traditional," and others are blatantly not so. But I don't prefer pure egalitarianism. I think this is common to personalities like mine; extremely proficient in some areas, but lopsided.

What you promote is a dynamic which can never be "consensual" when applied to 50% of the population en masse, because it requires the woman to lack independent sustainability in the most basic survival sense, whereas the man is completely capable in this regard. An individual couple can make this decision themselves, based on trust and knowing their personal dynamic, but to apply it society-wide is an inevitable recipe for abuse, which we have seen from the unfortunate "glory days" you pine for.

When applied to a society, it is not a partnership in any sense. It is women as servants.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Perhaps it's the norm because it's the norm.