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Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?


  • Total voters
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

What are you talking about again?
Parzival, mein Herr. I thought you'd appreciate the reference. A little taste of home, as it were.

You hate Ms Magdalene too, don't you? So did Eschenbach for that matter.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I agree with most of what you say, I'd just like to say that I've met feminists (two in particular, a female and a male) who were a bit ideologically dense IMO, insofar as I had the impression they're generalizing too much. That said, I totally agree with the vision of people valuing other humans as humans first, regardless of gender, and I think traditional gender roles are nothing but the personal, individual choice of consenting adults. :)

Just having become a father of a little daughter, I tend to say that bringing up a child is a difficult task that's hard enough to do for two parents, and one alone certainly has a major disadvantage. However, this only means effectively "one alone" in practize, not necessarily a certain family model: When the husband leaves the upbringing entirely up to the mother, she's factually alone. And a single mom isn't factually alone, when she has grandparents supporting her, and/or gay flatmates, etc.

I'd just argue that raising a kid is a hard job that's better done by more than just one person, and that children need stable environments. The exact constallation, however, I don't think is so important. IMO.

Applause! :) Couldn't agree more. Marriage shouldn't be a matter of vastly uneven power distribution, or even "prostitiution" of some kind. It should ideally be on eyelevel between both partners, who, like adults, together share responsibilities and roles.


Congratulations on becoming a father.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Parzival, mein Herr. I thought you'd appreciate the reference. A little taste of home, as it were.

You hate Ms Magdalene too, don't you? So did Eschenbach for that matter.

Parzival? Sorry, I'm no fan of Wagner, or Germanic myths in general. However, I wasn't aware that "femis" played a role in any pieces of art older than 50 years.

So if you want to tell me something, maybe you could do it directly, please? (I was told that's a masculine trait somewhere else.)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

What are you talking about again?

I take him to be making a reference to the phenomenon known as "white knighting" - guys who ride to the defense of women who are being criticized by men and saving them.

Loads of guys love to side with feminists and their vapid arguments in hopes of scoring. Too bad for these guys that most women only see these men as friends and focus their sexual interest on men who aren't so cringeworthy. White knighting is such a pathetic strategy and it even fails the internal logic of feminism - why would women need a man to come to their aid when they are debating other men. That's an insult to the woman, but these white knights are clueless, which probably goes a long way to explaining why they believe in white knighting as a tactic.

Sure. However, it's just as misleading to assume it must ALWAYS be because of nature. Only intensive study can help solving that question.

My guess is that in most cases, both factors are involved to some extent.

There's a saying that goes the "dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe" and there should be a similar saying about the threat of genetic determinist explanations always being invoked but it's always the environmental determinist arguments which are considered.

I've not seen one genetic argument which completely discounts the role of environment but I've been inundated with arguments which presuppose that everything can be explained by environment alone.

Oh, and in my observation, the most common reason for divorce were males not capable of committing themselves. My parents' generation is a living stereotype of guys who got a midlife crisis, abandoning and divorcing their wifes and children to marry some 15 years younger secretary, leaving behind their bitter wifes.

I'm not so sure that this describes the totality of the divorce universe. Maybe there is a cultural aspect in play here, but here in the US some 70% of divorces are initiated by women, most men are completely blindsided that the marriage has actually failed, and the most common reason for divorce is that the wife feels unloved. Sure, there is abuse, sure there is infidelity, sure there are men leaving their wives for younger women. Female fickleness though is a significant factor here, perhaps the counterpart to male resistance to commit prior to a marriage.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I take him to be making a reference to the phenomenon known as "white knighting" - guys who ride to the defense of women who are being criticized by men and saving them.

Loads of guys love to side with feminists and their vapid arguments in hopes of scoring. Too bad for these guys that most women only see these men as friends and focus their sexual interest on men who aren't so cringeworthy. White knighting is such a pathetic strategy and it even fails the internal logic of feminism - why would women need a man to come to their aid when they are debating other men. That's an insult to the woman, but these white knights are clueless, which probably goes a long way to explaining why they believe in white knighting as a tactic.

Hahaha

So much demonization and ignorance in one paragraph. Impressive.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Parzival? Sorry, I'm no fan of Wagner, or Germanic myths in general. However, I wasn't aware that "femis" played a role in any pieces of art older than 50 years.

So if you want to tell me something, maybe you could do it directly, please? (I was told that's a masculine trait somewhere else.)
Were you similarly informed that directness withers under conditions of partiality? I only ask because either you're fearless in the face of indoctrination, or you're so haplessly beguiled that what you misconstrue as being directness is merely sychophancy.

Also, do you know of any way I might disable Spell Check? It annoys me greatly, being that it's an illiterate submoron with a hatred of Anglicised spelling. I figured you might know, being a Mod and all.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I take him to be making a reference to the phenomenon known as "white knighting" - guys who ride to the defense of women who are being criticized by men and saving them.

Loads of guys love to side with feminists and their vapid arguments in hopes of scoring. Too bad for these guys that most women only see these men as friends and focus their sexual interest on men who aren't so cringeworthy. White knighting is such a pathetic strategy and it even fails the internal logic of feminism - why would women need a man to come to their aid when they are debating other men. That's an insult to the woman, but these white knights are clueless, which probably goes a long way to explaining why they believe in white knighting as a tactic.

Sounds to me like a stupid invention of sexist male debaters to silence down males who don't share their opinions with a totally stupid strawman in-joke/reference/mocking narrative. Because without doubt, in their eyes, any expression of opinion of non-sexist males cannot serve any other purpose than "supporting feminists", which is totally patronizing towards such males and their opinions.

Now of course it may be beyond the imagination of certain males that other males actually appreciate women on eyelevel.

There's a saying that goes the "dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe" and there should be a similar saying about the threat of genetic determinist explanations always being invoked but it's always the environmental determinist arguments which are considered.

I've not seen one genetic argument which completely discounts the role of environment but I've been inundated with arguments which presuppose that everything can be explained by environment alone.

No idea what you're getting at here, but I think it's a no-brainer that both causes play a role, to different extent in different cases.

I'm not so sure that this describes the totality of the divorce universe. Maybe there is a cultural aspect in play here, but here in the US some 70% of divorces are initiated by women, most men are completely blindsided that the marriage has actually failed, and the most common reason for divorce is that the wife feels unloved. Sure, there is abuse, sure there is infidelity, sure there are men leaving their wives for younger women. Female fickleness though is a significant factor here, perhaps the counterpart to male resistance to commit prior to a marriage.

Do you have reliable sources for these claims?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Were you similarly informed that directness withers under conditions of partiality? I only ask because either you're fearless in the face of indoctrination, or you're so haplessly beguiled that what you misconstrue as being directness is merely sychophancy.

Also, do you know of any way I might disable Spell Check? It annoys me greatly, being that it's an illiterate submoron with a hatred of Anglicised spelling. I figured you might know, being a Mod and all.

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

And no, English is not my first language. Please forgive spelling errors and bad writing style.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

And no, English is not my first language. Please forgive spelling errors and bad writing style.
Your English is fine. I was referring to Spell Check, not you.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Do you have reliable sources for these claims?

Psychology Today:

A 2000 paper published in American Law and Economics Review and authored by Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas W. Allen reports data (Table 1, p. 128) from several studies across the United States and spanning more than 100 years (1867 to 1995) regarding the percentage of instances where the woman had filed for divorce. Based on the figures reported in Table 1, I calculated that women had initiated the divorce in 68.9% of all cases.​
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Psychology Today:

A 2000 paper published in American Law and Economics Review and authored by Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas W. Allen reports data (Table 1, p. 128) from several studies across the United States and spanning more than 100 years (1867 to 1995) regarding the percentage of instances where the woman had filed for divorce. Based on the figures reported in Table 1, I calculated that women had initiated the divorce in 68.9% of all cases.​

Okay, that's interesting. However, this legal argumentation doesn't allow any conclusions regarding the reasons. Well possible that these women just initiated divorce because their hudbands were openly cheating on them, even having open affairs with younger women, yet didn't find it necessary to end their old marriages. In that case, the moral blame would be with said husbands.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Your English is fine. I was referring to Spell Check, not you.

Okay.

So since I can only guess where you're coming from, I'd just like to add a few general statements: No, the world isn't decisionist and you don't have to take sides, but can easily stand for yourself. An opinion is not invalid because it's mainstream or zeitgeist, as it can be well thought-through, just like a non-zeitgeist opinion has no merit just because it's unconventional; in times of a progressive zeitgeist, conservative or reactionary opinions are just atifacts of a past zeitgeist that was just as mainstream at some point, and equally unoriginal. Rebellion in itself has no value.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Okay.

So since I can only guess where you're coming from, I'd just like to add a few general statements: No, the world isn't decisionist and you don't have to take sides, but can easily stand for yourself. An opinion is not invalid because it's mainstream or zeitgeist, as it can be well thought-through, just like a non-zeitgeist opinion has no merit just because it's unconventional; in times of a progressive zeitgeist, conservative or reactionary opinions are just atifacts of a past zeitgeist that was just as mainstream at some point, and equally unoriginal. Rebellion in itself has no value.
I'm not concerned with the inevitability of ideological inertia.

Never mind. Don't sweat it. The Apostle Paul may or may not have been a misogynist, but we'll never uncover the truth via recourse to that same 'indirectness' you claim to eschew.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Okay, that's interesting. However, this legal argumentation doesn't allow any conclusions regarding the reasons. Well possible that these women just initiated divorce because their hudbands were openly cheating on them, even having open affairs with younger women, yet didn't find it necessary to end their old marriages. In that case, the moral blame would be with said husbands.

I noted above that this goes on, but it's hard to pin it down. There's no need to strip women of moral agency though. Women can do bad things, like getting divorces, and they don't need to pin the blame on men. We don't allow men to pin the blame for wife-beating on the wives, do we? Even if the wife is a harridan, the husband who strikes her is at fault. A woman who blows up a marriage is responsible for the destruction even if the man did something bad but wanted to continue with the marriage.

Regardless, there is the phenomenon of clueless men being surprised by the divorce. The fact that they're clueless about the divorce suggests that they were clueless about the wife's unhappiness leading up to the divorce. Still, it's female fickleness in play here - these guys weren't Prince Charming but they weren't wife beaters either.

. . . that women seemed more in tune with the danger signs of a problem marriage. Men were more likely to be caught off-guard by their divorce, with 26 percent of men saying they "never saw it coming," . .

"The idea of an older man leaving his wife for a younger woman is ingrained in the American psyche—and that has created a misconception about divorce,"​
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I'm not concerned with the inevitability of ideological inertia.

Never mind. Don't sweat it. The Apostle Paul may or may not have been a misogynist, but we'll never uncover the truth via recourse to that same 'indirectness' you claim to eschew.

Oh, if it's the scripture you're concerned about, suffice to say I'm not a "white knight" or anything of that kind, but respect God's word as revealed by Baha'u'llah.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Psychology Today:

A 2000 paper published in American Law and Economics Review and authored by Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas W. Allen reports data (Table 1, p. 128) from several studies across the United States and spanning more than 100 years (1867 to 1995) regarding the percentage of instances where the woman had filed for divorce. Based on the figures reported in Table 1, I calculated that women had initiated the divorce in 68.9% of all cases.​

But why? and what is the relevancy?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

The Apostle Paul may or may not have been a misogynist, but we'll never uncover the truth via recourse to that same 'indirectness' you claim to eschew.

My guess is that he was concerned with the survival of the church. With members being killed left and right, and churches being wiped out, it was best if the women could not be directly indicted, thus allowing the church to survive.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I noted above that this goes on, but it's hard to pin it down. There's no need to strip women of moral agency though. Women can do bad things, like getting divorces, and they don't need to pin the blame on men. We don't allow men to pin the blame for wife-beating on the wives, do we? Even if the wife is a harridan, the husband who strikes her is at fault. A woman who blows up a marriage is responsible for the destruction even if the man did something bad but wanted to continue with the marriage.

Regardless, there is the phenomenon of clueless men being surprised by the divorce. The fact that they're clueless about the divorce suggests that they were clueless about the wife's unhappiness leading up to the divorce. Still, it's female fickleness in play here - these guys weren't Prince Charming but they weren't wife beaters either.

. . . that women seemed more in tune with the danger signs of a problem marriage. Men were more likely to be caught off-guard by their divorce, with 26 percent of men saying they "never saw it coming," . .

"The idea of an older man leaving his wife for a younger woman is ingrained in the American psyche—and that has created a misconception about divorce,"​

Yeah of course, each divorce has its individual reasons, and I'd say it's virtually impossible to judge from the outside who's to blame in many individual cases, let alone making general statements.

However, if we were to invoke biological-determinist explanations, it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that it's the biological drive of men to look for new, younger, fertile mating partners once their old partner has reached an age when breeding becomes unlikely and accordingly, physical attractiveness decreases. Right? ;)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Oh, if it's the scripture you're concerned about, suffice to say I'm not a "white knight" or anything of that kind, but respect God's word as revealed by Baha'u'llah.
I never called you a White Knight. Benighted perhaps, but no less engaging for it. :lol:

No, to qualify for that honorifc (sarcastically or otherwise), you'd have to be fully aware of what you were getting yourself into.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Okay, that's interesting. However, this legal argumentation doesn't allow any conclusions regarding the reasons. Well possible that these women just initiated divorce because their hudbands were openly cheating on them, even having open affairs with younger women, yet didn't find it necessary to end their old marriages. In that case, the moral blame would be with said husbands.

I would also add that men will avoid divorce to protect themselves financially.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I never called you a White Knight. Benighted perhaps, but no less engaging for it. :lol:

No, to qualify for that honorifc (sarcastically or otherwise), you'd have to be fully aware of what you were getting yourself into.

Ah, good to know you know very well what other people think and intend, even better than themselves... but don't expect many other kids playing with you when you show that attitude. ;)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Yeah of course, each divorce has its individual reasons, and I'd say it's virtually impossible to judge from the outside who's to blame in many individual cases, let alone making general statements.

Same with family violence? Hey, let's not draw any general conclusions from the overwhelming amount of data. It's all individual cases and we can't learn anything about patterns of male violence from just individual data.

I don't understand the reluctance to make general inferences if those inferences cast women in a bad light. Why deny women moral agency?

However, if we were to invoke biological-determinist explanations, it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that it's the biological drive of men to look for new, younger, fertile mating partners once their old partner has reached an age when breeding becomes unlikely and accordingly, physical attractiveness decreases. Right? ;)

We can speak to male desire - lots of old dudes would love to be banging young, hot chicks, but as they say, it takes two to tango and those hot, young chicks aren't really into balding, pot-bellied, flabby, old-man-smelling, dudes. So, in most cases male desires can't be realized.

When those desires are realized it's because the man has something exceptional to offer a younger woman. Exceptional men are only a small category of all men.

What we do know is that men seem more reluctant to commit to a marriage than women. We also know that women are more quick to fall out of love after a marriage, hence the divorces. The flipside is that once men commit to a marriage they're more inclined to stay committed than women.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

My guess is that he was concerned with the survival of the church. With members being killed left and right, and churches being wiped out, it was best if the women could not be directly indicted, thus allowing the church to survive.
He was a product of his time. The Church was by no means the only detractor of any paganism that preceded Christianity; only its most vocal and ruthless vehicle. I'd be surprised if his attitude weren't the norm for that place and time. Imagine trying to live up to Jesus. That guy was so radical they tortured and murdered him.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

He was a product of his time. The Church was by no means the only detractor of any paganism that preceded Christianity; only its most vocal and ruthless vehicle. I'd be surprised if his attitude weren't the norm for that place and time. Imagine trying to live up to Jesus. That guy was so radical they tortured and murdered him.

Nonetheless, my point about the survival of churches is legit. There was a real need to arrange survivors.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Ah, good to know you know very well what other people think and intend, even better than themselves... but don't expect many other kids playing with you when you show that attitude. ;)
I've no need to grope around in the dark, when you all but beat me to death with signposts. I work and play well with others. In fact, to such an extent that I've been accused of being indirect. ;)
 
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