Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:

There's no "raging hatred of men" here.
I just don't make pissy, childish excuses for us either.
Men have ruled the world since the dawn of time.
We hold the vast majority of positions of power.
Who are the richest people in the world?
Who are the most famous?
Who are the most powerful?

Even "GOD" is a male.

Gimme a damned break.

Where is all this nonsense coming from?

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Someone's not getting laid, probably.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:

For those who posted to pour scorn on men as "whining" about the way men are being treated in American society, you're just proving my point, are you not?

To be clear, the OP was not a call to order a bride from Russia or turn to other foreign women. The main point was the way men are being treated and regarded in American society. If you claim not to know what I'm referring to then you are being willfully blind and disenginious. The discussion started with marriage because marriage is the locus of many of the legal and societal sanctions against men, and American women are particularly inclined to take full advantage of the lack of fairness, even regarding it as their birthright. Which is why so many men are voting with their feet and avoiding the roles of husband, father, and provider.

It goes far, far beyond male dissatisfaction over the loss of traditional male roles and into the realm of unreasonable hatred and bigotry being directed toward men for no more than being men. Legal sanctions against men and disrespect of men are also strong on college campuses, and so we have seen a drop in male enrollment.

But it starts even earlier than that, with boys being shunted to alternative schools and drugged for acting like boys instead of like girls, which is what teachers, which are almost all women, prefer. It isn't any wonder that by they time they leave high school many young men have had their fill of academe.

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AlbqOwl said:

Hmmm, I check in to see how it's going with marrying off American women to American men, and find a discussion on education?

Do you ever wonder how that happens?

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I think it was the OP, although I did post an article about education and boys versus girls. I don't think the topic can be limited to just marriage, as I think what the OP is actually complaining about is a bigger issue of alleged bias against men in general. The OP is claiming that men are disrespected not only in relationships but also in school and just in general. Not that I agree with that, but I do think he has a point when it comes to how we educate our young boys in the classroom setting and how education is certainly not a "one size fits all" philosophy.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:

I thought the entire premise of this thread was a whiny "men are victims" rant of pathetic proportions?

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Yeah, that's what the OP was about. I never said that, so . . . I don't know what your issue is.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

NoC_T said:

No, just a prostitute. Still, I'm sure she went into it with her eyes (and legs) open. I ****ing know he did. :lol:

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That's not nice. Maybe they're in love.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:

The public educational system changes all the time. A lot of schools have started to cut programs like recess and sports in recent years.

Cutting Physical Education and Recess: Troubling Trends and How You Can Help

"Zero tolerance" policies have exploded since the 1990s as well.

What do you think happens when you take young boys, who tend to be far more aggressive and energetic than young girls anyway, and then remove their only real physical outlet for that aggression, while ramping up the penalties for even minor offenses to absurdly disproportionate degrees at the same time?

A lot of boys wind up being labeled as "troublemakers," that's what. In some cases, this might very well lead them to be discriminated against by (largely female) teachers and school administration.

Additionally, school curriculum and teaching methods these days often tend to change at the drop of the hat. As RiverDad has already pointed out, a lot of more modern curriculum emphasizes "busy work" over actual achievement. Simply because girls are more willing to do busy work, where boys are more likely to rebel against it, doesn't mean that boys are less intelligent, or less academically qualified.

I'm certainly not claiming that boys are "victims" here, but there would appear to be some problems inherent to our current system which aren't doing them any favors at the present moment.

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I agree. There are schools where there is absolutely no contact allowed between students. They seem to forget that students also need to develop social skills, and boys and girls will naturally go about this in different ways.

I can understand how the "cliche" is upsetting to some liberal men, but for some men there are just natural rights of passage into manhood, and although it might seem abnormal or even barbaric to some of the more liberal men, they have to remember that not everyone is like them.

I know a lot of them are going to come out and say that is just societal conditioning or whatever, but I really think that hormones and just natural differences between boys and girls and the way they approach problems and relationships is normal for some and needs to be recognized.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

I think it was the OP, although I did post an article about education and boys versus girls. I don't think the topic can be limited to just marriage, as I think what the OP is actually complaining about is a bigger issue of alleged bias against men in general. The OP is claiming that men are disrespected not only in relationships but also in school and just in general. Not that I agree with that, but I do think he has a point when it comes to how we educate our young boys in the classroom setting and how education is certainly not a "one size fits all" philosophy.

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ChrisL said:

Yeah, that's what the OP was about. I never said that, so . . . I don't know what your issue is.

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Our only "issue" is that I don't agree that boys have a tougher time in school than girls.

That says that boys are victims.
That says that boys aren't as adaptable, or as smart as girls.

I don't believe any such thing.

There are many, many reasons why some kids get left behind, or are failed by the public school system, but having a penis isn't one of the reasons.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

I think it was the OP, although I did post an article about education and boys versus girls. I don't think the topic can be limited to just marriage, as I think what the OP is actually complaining about is a bigger issue of alleged bias against men in general. The OP is claiming that men are disrespected not only in relationships but also in school and just in general. Not that I agree with that, but I do think he has a point when it comes to how we educate our young boys in the classroom setting and how education is certainly not a "one size fits all" philosophy.

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Okay, I see your point, and I concur the OP did not restrict the concept to just marriage. I guess I was focused more on the thread title. But I stand corrected.

But as for education not being a 'one size fits all' philosophy as in how boys and girls are educated, I come from an earlier era where indeed the boys and girls were educated identically. We ALL had to go out for recess unless we had a note from home excusing us from recess. We ALL had to participate in P.E. unless excused by a doctor. And we all were expected to sit respectfully in our classrooms, pay attention, and not disrupt the class for the five or six hours that we were in class. And that was an era before Ritalin and other behavior modification drugs became common. Where the differences came in was in dress codes--the girls were required to wear modest dresses or skirts and blouses; the boys had to tuck their shirt tails in, etc. And later on in junior high (middle school) and high school when girls weren't allowed to take shop and boys weren't allowed to take home economics and the boys got the lion's share of the sports made available to students.

Even so, with very few exceptions, the graduation rates were in the high 90 percentile range and we all got an education that equipped us to compete with anybody.

And that was in the days when you would see ads on television: An SOS soap pads ad: "Girls, if you want your Mrs. degree, you had better learn how to shine in the kitchen." Can you imagine an ad like that on TV these days?????

But us girls didn't really feel all that discriminated against or deprived. I figured out early on that if I wanted to compete in a man's world, I had to be as good or better than a man at what I do. I have applied that philosophy to a lengthy working life. And somehow I also knew that it was good and right for my husband to be head of our household and it did not diminish me at all as a woman and as a person to respect him in that role. Our children were also raised with that kind of perspective.

Our focus should always be on what works, what is edifying, what is practical, what is successful. That often means putting a whole lot of political correctness crap way down on the list of priorities.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:

Our only "issue" is that I don't agree that boys have a tougher time in school than girls.

That says that boys are victims.
That says that boys aren't as adaptable, or as smart as girls.

I don't believe any such thing.

There are many, many reasons why some kids get left behind, or are failed by the public school system, but having a penis isn't one of the reasons.

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Agreed. The reason is that too many parents use the term "boys will be boys" as an excuse for piss-poor parenting, that's why.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:

No, but he hasn't helped a bit. Yet another liberal who wants to play sugar daddy to all the women folk. Women emerge liberated and become independent only to become dependent on The Man? Maybe you saw the Life of Julia before the Obama campaign took it down. I can't see how any strong and intelligent person would endorse it. It spawned a number of parodies. A summary is here.

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Those poor women who can't fend for themselves! They all need a man!

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:

Someone's not getting laid, probably.

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Yeah, really intelligent to resort to ad hominem shaming language.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:

Our only "issue" is that I don't agree that boys have a tougher time in school than girls.

That says that boys are victims.
That says that boys aren't as adaptable, or as smart as girls.

I don't believe any such thing.

There are many, many reasons why some kids get left behind, or are failed by the public school system, but having a penis isn't one of the reasons.

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I don't know where you get all of that nonsense. The simple fact of the matter is that boys and girls may learn differently a lot of the times. Recognizing the fact that, in most instances, boys and girls are different and might take a different approach to learning and socializing is certainly not an insult to either gender.

http://www.bpcsd.org/community/parentcorner/Pdf/elementarysummer.pdf

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:

Agreed. The reason is that too many parents use the term "boys will be boys" as an excuse for piss-poor parenting, that's why.

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Do you have proof of this allegation? Do you honestly think that boys and girls are the same and that perhaps the way our education system is set up, that it doesn't maybe favor one gender to have a favorable outcome, while maybe ignoring the needs of the other?

So you have it all figured out, just "bad parenting." That must be why we have young, YOUNG boys on Ritalin.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

AlbqOwl said:

Okay, I see your point, and I concur the OP did not restrict the concept to just marriage. I guess I was focused more on the thread title. But I stand corrected.

But as for education not being a 'one size fits all' philosophy as in how boys and girls are educated, I come from an earlier era where indeed the boys and girls were educated identically. We ALL had to go out for recess unless we had a note from home excusing us from recess. We ALL had to participate in P.E. unless excused by a doctor. And we all were expected to sit respectfully in our classrooms, pay attention, and not disrupt the class for the five or six hours that we were in class. And that was an era before Ritalin and other behavior modification drugs became common. Where the differences came in was in dress codes--the girls were required to wear modest dresses or skirts and blouses; the boys had to tuck their shirt tails in, etc. And later on in junior high (middle school) and high school when girls weren't allowed to take shop and boys weren't allowed to take home economics and the boys got the lion's share of the sports made available to students.

Even so, with very few exceptions, the graduation rates were in the high 90 percentile range and we all got an education that equipped us to compete with anybody.

And that was in the days when you would see ads on television: An SOS soap pads ad: "Girls, if you want your Mrs. degree, you had better learn how to shine in the kitchen." Can you imagine an ad like that on TV these days?????

But us girls didn't really feel all that discriminated against or deprived. I figured out early on that if I wanted to compete in a man's world, I had to be as good or better than a man at what I do. I have applied that philosophy to a lengthy working life. And somehow I also knew that it was good and right for my husband to be head of our household and it did not diminish me at all as a woman and as a person to respect him in that role. Our children were also raised with that kind of perspective.

Our focus should always be on what works, what is edifying, what is practical, what is successful. That often means putting a whole lot of political correctness crap way down on the list of priorities.

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I can't comment because I wasn't even a twinkling in my parents' eyes yet! :lol: I do know what I have observed and read though, and that is that teachers and school administrators are sometimes keen on putting little boys on mind-altering substances so that they "behave" in school. Sounds kind of like a bunch of "Stepford" children if you ask me. Perhaps it has to do with clothing, but I'm not sure.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

Do you have proof of this allegation? Do you honestly think that boys and girls are the same and that perhaps the way our education system is set up, that it doesn't maybe favor one gender to have a favorable outcome, while maybe ignoring the needs of the other?

So you have it all figured out, just "bad parenting." That must be why we have young, YOUNG boys on Ritalin.

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Well I don't know how it is in America, but that term is usually used in Germany, in my experience, by parents who have no problem shrugging off the behavior of their boys, who are schoolyard bullies, intimidating weaker pupils (often including girls) and generally showing no respect whatsoever for weaker fellows, as "typical boy behavior".

I'm sure boys are to some extent different than girls, but that doesn't mean you should let behavior pass that will qualify your boys best for a carreer as youth delinquents or gang mobsters, and would be considered a criminal offense when people 10 years older do it.

And my guess is the main part of the gender difference many claim to observe is due to such double standards in parenting.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

boy vs. girl vs. public education is off-topic for this thread - somebody start a new one so this train wreck of a thread can get back off-course .....

sorry for being part of the derailment....

To refresh the main topic of the OP - men are victims of a massive social conspiracy to make men victims, for being men.....

carry on....

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:

Someone's not getting laid, probably.

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Post is really disappointing and inappropriate personal attack nonsense. Why post at all?

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:

boy vs. girl vs. public education is off-topic for this thread - somebody start a new one so this train wreck of a thread can get back off-course .....

sorry for being part of the derailment....

To refresh the main topic of the OP - men are victims of a massive social conspiracy to make men victims, for being men.....

carry on....

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I don't think men are generally victims. Individual people, male or female, are victims for different, individual reasons.

*In general*, I'd say women are still individually facing many structural disadvantages, such as male rope teams in many professions that makes it more difficult for them to achieve than for men, but then, that's not the case in all professions and for all women. Also, in many fields, women are facing disadvantages on the labor market (at least in Germany), because they're expected to get a child and thus leave for a while, which is considered a disadvantage by many employers. Accordingly, women often get less pay for the same work. Way too often, women still are forced to choose between either carreer or family.

For example, it's still the case that only around 10% of the top positions in German economy and politics are occupied by women, and nobody can tell me that's because women are ten times less competent or qualified on these fields.

But then, that's just statistics. In some fields, like "caring" jobs such as nurses or nursery teachers, the situation is reversed and men suffer that disadvantage due to female rope teams and gender clichés in the minds of people.

Then, there are still many stereotypical gender roles presents in the minds of both men and women, which cause disadvantages for many people, sometimes men (when they don't meet the typical male cliché in some circles), but statistically probably more often women.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Ray410 said:

Post is really disappointing personal attack nonsense. Why post at all?

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Well sorry if I offended anybody, but I simply couldn't take this polemic hyperbole about "men being victims" seriously. Again, sorry, I'll try to avoid such statements now.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:

For those who posted to pour scorn on men as "whining" about the way men are being treated in American society, you're just proving my point, are you not?

To be clear, the OP was not a call to order a bride from Russia or turn to other foreign women. The main point was the way men are being treated and regarded in American society. If you claim not to know what I'm referring to then you are being willfully blind and disenginious. The discussion started with marriage because marriage is the locus of many of the legal and societal sanctions against men, and American women are particularly inclined to take full advantage of the lack of fairness, even regarding it as their birthright. Which is why so many men are voting with their feet and avoiding the roles of husband, father, and provider.

It goes far, far beyond male dissatisfaction over the loss of traditional male roles and into the realm of unreasonable hatred and bigotry being directed toward men for no more than being men. Legal sanctions against men and disrespect of men are also strong on college campuses, and so we have seen a drop in male enrollment.

But it starts even earlier than that, with boys being shunted to alternative schools and drugged for acting like boys instead of like girls, which is what teachers, which are almost all women, prefer. It isn't any wonder that by they time they leave high school many young men have had their fill of academe.

Click to expand...

Dragonfly said:

boy vs. girl vs. public education is off-topic for this thread - somebody start a new one so this train wreck of a thread can get back off-course .....

sorry for being part of the derailment....

To refresh the main topic of the OP - men are victims of a massive social conspiracy to make men victims, for being men.....

carry on....

Click to expand...

Fortunately, you are neither a moderator nor the OP, and the OP specifically mentions education. If you don't want to discuss that here, then by all means, go away. :lol: We who want to have a serious discussion about this issue will not miss your temper tantrums. :2wave:

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:

Well sorry if I offended anybody, but I simply couldn't take this polemic hyperbole about "men being victims" seriously. Again, sorry, I'll try to avoid such statements now.

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Except I hadn't said anything of the sort.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Ray410 said:

Except I hadn't said anything of the sort.

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I had the OP in mind.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:

Well sorry if I offended anybody, but I simply couldn't take this polemic hyperbole about "men being victims" seriously. Again, sorry, I'll try to avoid such statements now.

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No, please do go on.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:

Fortunately, you are neither a moderator nor the OP, and the OP specifically mentions education. If you don't want to discuss that here, then by all means, go away. :lol: We who want to have a serious discussion about this issue will not miss your temper tantrums. :2wave:

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Read the title of the thread, and the OP.

Also - feel free to ignore me. There's a button made just for that.

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:

Well I don't know how it is in America, but that term is usually used in Germany, in my experience, by parents who have no problem shrugging off the behavior of their boys, who are schoolyard bullies, intimidating weaker pupils (often including girls) and generally showing no respect whatsoever for weaker fellows, as "typical boy behavior".

I'm sure boys are to some extent different than girls, but that doesn't mean you should let behavior pass that will qualify your boys best for a carreer as youth delinquents or gang mobsters, and would be considered a criminal offense when people 10 years older do it.

And my guess is the main part of the gender difference many claim to observe is due to such double standards in parenting.

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Well, I didn't read where anyone was advocating for "bratty" behavior, just saying that maybe the way our education system is set up, it may favor girls over boys. A question for you, German guy, do you think this gender gap related to academic success is related to bad parenting? Perhaps little boys become discouraged with school at a young age. I wonder what kinds of effects all of this "medicating" our boys is going to have too.

USATODAY.com - Girls get extra school help while boys get Ritalin

Girls get extra school help while boys get Ritalin
At last June's graduation at Franklin High School just outside of Milwaukee, three of the four students who tied for valedictorian were girls. Among the National Honor Society members, 76% were girls. And girls comprised 85% of the students on Franklin's 4.0 honor roll.
The superintendent of schools for this upper-middle-class suburb, Gerald Freitag, investigated those numbers after the parents of a boy filed a complaint. He found that the skewed performances by gender at Franklin pretty much mirror the imbalances across the state — and the nation.

This week, teachers at the middle school feeding into Franklin received training on how to reach out to boys. And high school teachers will continue the gender-sensitivity classes they began last school year.

But reversing the trend will not be easy. In classrooms nationwide, girls are pulling ahead of boys academically. Recent federal testing data show that what starts out as a modest gap in elementary-level reading scores turns into a yawning divide by high school. In 12th grade, 44% of girls rate as proficient readers on federal tests, compared with 28% of boys. And while boys still score slightly higher on federal math and science exams, their advantage is slipping.

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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:

Read the title of the thread, and the OP.

Also - feel free to ignore me. There's a button made just for that.

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No need for that. You can just stop being bossy and demanding. Oh, and as you can see that put in bold just for you where the OP specifically mentioned that he wanted to discuss education and how it might affect boys.