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Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:
If given the chance to re-marry would you marry (another) American woman?

Increasingly the answer is "no".

Men are increasingly disrespected by American women. They face extreme economic and social disadvantages in family law that makes it possible for a wife to divorce them and take most of what they have including their children for any reason or no reason. They are constantly told that they are worthless and stupid. Disrespect for men has become standard practice. Men are disrespected by their wives – they’re disrespected publicly, they’re disrespected privately, they’re disrespected and then told that they have no right to be upset about it because they aren’t worthy of respect in the first place.

Disrespect of men is a joke to Americans now.

The result has been that men are increasingly dropping out of society. They don't marry, they don't go to college because they see no reason to break their humps to get ready to provide for a family -- they aren't going to be having a family.

Lots has been written about this phenomena, most of it in the strain of "why is it that men are so childish now." But men are not dropping out because of arrested development. They are acting rationally in response to myriad laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century.

Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters: Helen Smith: 9781594036750: Amazon.com: Books
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On the other hand, the pendulum swings back and forth. Seems like it's not all bad news.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
If they wanted to be married with children, they would be. They're simply putting other priorities first.
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And as we see in America, especially in the black community, the option of marrying the government plus having children is a viable path for many women.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
Then their standards are too high, which is a personal choice on their own part.

Again, many women who remain unmarried and childless in our own society claim the same thing; that they're "just waiting for the right guy," time, circumstances, or etca. The simple fact of the matter is that it's all nothing more than self-rationalizing B.S., meant to justify life decisions that they feel to be outside of established norms.

If they wanted to be married with children, they would be. They're simply putting other priorities first.
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What is wrong with them putting other priorities first? Men do this. Why is it that women automatically need to sacrifice their lives to be brood mares? Some women don't have a maternal instinct. God bless them for knowing themselves enough not to put kids through the agony of being raised by a mother who didn't really want them.

I've told all my kids, they do not owe me grandchildren. Become parents because they want to, not out of some sense of duty to me.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
Then their standards are too high, which is a personal choice on their own part.
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Yes, traditional gender roles are unrealistic for a modern society. Their preference to marry according to traditional values is not suitable for the modern era
Again, many women who remain unmarried and childless in our own society claim the same thing; that they're "just waiting for the right guy," time, circumstances, or etca. The simple fact of the matter is that it's all nothing more than self-rationalizing B.S., meant to justify life decisions that they feel to be outside of established norms.

If they wanted to be married with children, they would be. They're simply putting other priorities first.
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So then I take it you don't want to be married with children, have a career, live in your own home, and be generally independent? You have put other priorities first?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
What is wrong with them putting other priorities first? Men do this. Why is it that women automatically need to sacrifice their lives to be brood mares? Some women don't have a maternal instinct. God bless them for knowing themselves enough not to put kids through the agony of being raised by a mother who didn't really want them.

I've told all my kids, they do not owe me grandchildren. Become parents because they want to, not out of some sense of duty to me.
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In a society which is failing to replace its numbers on such a grand scale that it's total population is basically expected to half itself before the end of the century, the attitude is certainly problematic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Japanese_population_chart_1870-2100.png

However, that is ultimately besides the point. We were discussing why the most recent generations of Japanese youths have tended to avoid marriage, relationships, and procreation, not the morality of this state of affairs. The simple fact of the matter is that this is the case overwhelmingly because the young people in question have chosen to do so.

Women have ceased to be interested in male companionship, and so men have stopped trying to pursue them. Both genders have made the conscious decision to allow self-centered materialistic pursuits to trump their need for human contact.

It is what it is. :shrug:
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
Yes, traditional gender roles are unrealistic for a modern society. Their preference to marry according to traditional values is not suitable for the modern era
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There is no other alternative. Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is.

They're not doing so to the same degree that the Japanese might be, but the same fundamental problems are present.

So then I take it you don't want to be married with children, have a career, live in your own home, and be generally independent? You have put other priorities first?
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I'm not following.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
What is wrong with them putting other priorities first? Men do this.
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Biology and human nature constrain our choices. There's no way of getting around a few issues. Women have a period of limited fertility. Men and women react differently to casual sex. Feminist philosophy is not going to be able to fix the issue of women's limited fertility time span and it's not going to be able to train women to react identical to men when the issue is casual sex, in terms of group responses.

Why is it that women automatically need to sacrifice their lives to be brood mares? Some women don't have a maternal instinct.
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That's OK. The problem which arises though is that many of the people who remain childless will have to depend on social welfare as they enter their golden years - someone is going to have to care for them and the system of financing that social welfare is built upon the notion that people are going to have children. In effect, instead of individual children caring for their own retired parents we have society's children caring for society's retired parents. The childless are free loaders here in that they never undertook the costs of raising a family. So, the issue in play is that there is an assumed responsibility which must be met in order to reap a real benefit.

The SS and Medicare systems are running into trouble precisely because of miscalculations on the demographics issue. We're not having enough babies who will grow up to be workers and taxpayers to keep the system actuarially sound.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
Yes, traditional gender roles are unrealistic for a modern society. Their preference to marry according to traditional values is not suitable for the modern era
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Then we're engaged in a grand game of "Chicken" or we're facing an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force.

Can human nature be changed to accommodate these new realities of modern society or will modern society have to reform in order to align with human nature.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
You are making that up. You do not know anything about what the young Japanese singles are doing. I have already posted the data for you. If you like, I can post it again.

This way, you can ignore it again.
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I'd like to see it. I looked back through the thread, but I'm sorry, I could not find it.

Gathomas88 said:
Women have ceased to be interested in male companionship, and so men have stopped trying to pursue them. Both genders have made the conscious decision to allow self-centered materialistic pursuits to trump their need for human contact.

It is what it is. :shrug:
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Are these Japanese or Americans to whom you are referring?

And then, really? Human beings are going to give up sex for materialistic pursuits?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
Are these Japanese or Americans to whom you are referring?
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Japanese, at the moment. I was simply saying that our own society seems to be exhibiting many of the same trends.

This is, for obvious reasons, troubling.

And then, really? Human beings are going to give up sex for materialistic pursuits?
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It's already happened. :shrug:

Study Says Japanese Men And Women “Despise Sexual Contact”: Birth Rates At All-Time Low

A survey earlier this year by the Japan Family Planning Association (JFPA) found that 45% of women aged 16-24 “were not interested in or despised sexual contact.” More than a quarter of men felt the same way.
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Human beings were never meant to deal with many of the stimuli they face in modern society. The results should frankly be expected to be somewhat unusual.

I'm honestly of the opinion that we might as well have giant monitors on our foreheads flashing "DOES NOT COMPUTE" at this point.
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

RiverDad said:
Biology and human nature constrain our choices. There's no way of getting around a few issues. Women have a period of limited fertility. Men and women react differently to casual sex. Feminist philosophy is not going to be able to fix the issue of women's limited fertility time span and it's not going to be able to train women to react identical to men when the issue is casual sex, in terms of group responses.
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We don't owe society our fertility. Beyond that, I don't get what you are driving at. Why would women need to be trained to react identically to men, in term of group responses?

That's OK. The problem which arises though is that many of the people who remain childless will have to depend on social welfare as they enter their golden years - someone is going to have to care for them and the system of financing that social welfare is built upon the notion that people are going to have children. In effect, instead of individual children caring for their own retired parents we have society's children caring for society's retired parents. The childless are free loaders here in that they never undertook the costs of raising a family. So, the issue in play is that there is an assumed responsibility which must be met in order to reap a real benefit.

The SS and Medicare systems are running into trouble precisely because of miscalculations on the demographics issue. We're not having enough babies who will grow up to be workers and taxpayers to keep the system actuarially sound.
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Childless people, pay taxes for services they never use, schools. So they can't exactly be called freeloaders.

That is a problem and one we will have to come to terms with soon.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I said yes in honor of my wife of 31 years. This marriage has been great (my second, her first). She is supportive, sweet, intelligent, trustworth, consistent, truthful, loyal, and she loves ME. She respects what I am good at, and overlooks my weaknesses. We work together well, we know what each other excels at, and that person controls in areas they excel at, after explaining WHY their option is better. We raised our 3 kids together, all are in their 20's and moving forward productively with their lives. I have had a good life, and my wife has played a major role in making that the case. I would be selective as I was when I married her, if I had to do it again, but I do enjoy cultural similarity with her.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
Childless people, pay taxes for services they never use, schools. So they can't exactly be called freeloaders.
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And children with paper routes who turn over their $5 per week paycheck to their parents are also not "freeloaders" in their parent's homes. They're paying their way. Right?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
However, that is ultimately besides the point. We were discussing why the most recent generations of Japanese youths have tended to avoid marriage, relationships, and procreation, not the morality of this state of affairs. The simple fact of the matter is that this is the case overwhelmingly because the young people in question have chosen to do so.

Women have ceased to be interested in male companionship, and so men have stopped trying to pursue them. Both genders have made the conscious decision to allow self-centered materialistic pursuits to trump their need for human contact.

It is what it is. :shrug:
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Except that it isn't

Here is the evidence again that shows that Japanese men and women have traditional values with respect to marriage and want to get married. I am posting it again so that you can continue to ignore the evidence



Here's a link to the article that the video is based on:

Japan

The situation in Japan was altogether different. Despite ongoing social change, young people remained firmly committed to the conventional understanding of the family, in which the husband works and the wife in most cases is a full-time homemaker. It was in this context that Japan’s birthrate fell. Sexual liberation did indeed make some progress, as premarital sex came to be accepted, but feminism and the revolution in lifestyles did not penetrate deeply into society. For instance, even today the cohabitation rate among young men and women remains under 2% (1.6% in 2010), and the out-of-wedlock birthrate is at the extremely low level of 2% (2.1% in 2008).
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Their extremely low out of wedlock birthrate should be your first clue that different cultures are, you know, *different*

Accounting for the great majority of unmarried Japanese, they are young people who continue to live with their parents even after attaining adulthood. In general, they tend not to have active sex lives.
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Unlike in the US, Japanese single adults tend to not have active sex lives. Another clue that different cultures are different

It is important to note that a very large share of unmarried Japanese hope to get married. Even after the ratio of unmarried people began climbing in the 1980s, the percentage hoping to find a marriage partner sooner or later remained at the high 90% level, with only small variation up and down.
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But wait!! How could that possibly be true when GaThomas says they don't want to get married?

It is commonly argued that the rise in the unmarried rate is the result of an increase in the number of young women who reject marriage because they want to keep on working. In Japan’s case, however, this line of thinking is not valid in most cases. In opinion polls, only a minority of women say that their desire to focus on their career is a reason for their not wanting to get married. The great majority say that they want to get married and to be able to depend on their husband financially. Several surveys have also shown that since the start of the twenty-first century, the number of women in their twenties who hope they can become full-time homemakers has even been increasing.
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Oh noes!! More evidence that directly contradicts what you've been saying! How could that possibly be true?!!

It's almost as if this sociologist is out to get you, Gath!
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
Except that it isn't

Here is the evidence again that shows that Japanese men and women have traditional values with respect to marriage and want to get married. I am posting it again so that you can continue to ignore the evidence



Here's a link to the article that the video is based on:

Japan



Their extremely low out of wedlock birthrate should be your first clue that different cultures are, you know, *different*



Unlike in the US, Japanese single adults tend to not have active sex lives. Another clue that different cultures are different



But wait!! How could that possibly be true when GaThomas says they don't want to get married?



Oh noes!! More evidence that directly contradicts what you've been saying! How could that possibly be true?!!

It's almost as if this sociologist is out to get you, Gath!
Click to expand...


Again, they clearly don't have "traditional values," or they would be getting married.

They are only paying lip service to the idea, because societal pressure is basically "guilting" them into it.

Actions ultimately matter more than words.
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
There is no other alternative. Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is.
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Really?

Most modern societies have large # of single adults who are sexually inactive?

Can you name them?

I'm not following.
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You've argued that the fact that these Japanese men and women have no married and had children is because they prefer to remain single and childless. Since you to have remained single and childless, does this mean that you prefer to remain single and childless?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
I'd like to see it. I looked back through the thread, but I'm sorry, I could not find it.
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I had posted it in an earlier thread where Gath ignored it. I have reposted it.

Are these Japanese or Americans to whom you are referring?
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Japanese, and then claiming that Americans are doing the same thing to a lesser degree. However, as my links show, the Japanese culture is quite different.

I bet you're stunned to learn that different cultures are different! :lol:

And then, really? Human beings are going to give up sex for materialistic pursuits?
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Yep, that's his argument. Hilarious, ain't it.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
Japanese, at the moment. I was simply saying that our own society seems to be exhibiting many of the same trends.

This is, for obvious reasons, troubling.



It's already happened. :shrug:

Study Says Japanese Men And Women “Despise Sexual Contact”: Birth Rates At All-Time Low



Human beings were never meant to deal with many of the stimuli they face in modern society. The results should frankly be expected to be somewhat unusual.

I'm honestly of the opinion that we might as well have giant monitors on our foreheads flashing "DOES NOT COMPUTE" at this point.
Click to expand...

I guess you don't realize that the fact that Japanese singles "depise sexual contact" is a clue that they are quite different culturally then we are.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
Again, they clearly don't have "traditional values," or they would be getting married.

They are only paying lip service to the idea, because societal pressure is basically "guilting" into it.

Actions ultimately matter more than words.
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Wrong again. Traditional values do not include "marrying someone who can't fulfill their traditional role"

And if actions matter more than words, does this mean that you prefer to remain single and childless?

Or does that only apply to other people?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
Really?

Most modern societies have large # of single adults who are sexually inactive?

Can you name them?
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Most modern societies have large numbers of women who are voluntarily choosing to forgo marriage, relationships, and procreation in favor of careers. This has also resulted in the rise of something of a "sexual underclass" of men who have stopped trying to pursue them.

The OP alone demonstrates that this is the case even in the United States.

The problem isn't as pronounced in the rest of the world as it is in Japan, but it is still present.

You've argued that the fact that these Japanese men and women have no married and had children is because they prefer to remain single and childless. Since you to have remained single and childless, does this mean that you prefer to remain single and childless?
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At the time being, yes. If I was truly adamant on finding a wife right this second, I probably could.

She'd be a bottom of the barrel barker, no doubt, but it likely could be done.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
I guess you don't realize that the fact that Japanese singles "depise sexual contact" is a clue that they are quite different culturally then we are.
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We are all ultimately only animals responding to external stimuli.

If it can happen to them, it could happen to us. In some ways, we are trending in that direction already with the rise of internet porn and the "failure to launch" culture.

sangha said:
Wrong again. Traditional values do not include "marrying someone who can't fulfill their traditional role"
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Poor people have married for most of human history. Deciding that you'd rather have money than companionship is a personal choice.

A lot of women simply don't want to give up their careers for the hassle of raising a family.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
Most modern societies have large numbers of women who are voluntarily choosing to forgo marriage, relationships, and procreation in favor of careers. This has also resulted in the rise of something of a "sexual underclass" of men who have stopped trying to pursue them.

The OP alone demonstrates that this is the case even in the United States.
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Pay attention and focus!

You claimed that:
Gathomas88 said:
There is no other alternative. Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is.
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The Japanese birth rate is falling because their singles are not having sex. Please name these modern societies where, like Japan, young singles are sexually inactive

At the time being, yes. If I was truly adamant on finding a wife right this second, I probably could.

She'd be a bottom of the barrel barker, no doubt, but it likely could be done.
Click to expand...

So you prefer to remain single and childless?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
We are all ultimately only animals responding to external stimuli.

If it can happen to them, it could happen to us. In some ways, we are trending in that direction already with the rise of internet porn and the "failure to launch" culture.
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And yet, the "animals" in Japan have responded to the stimuli in a completely different manner than the "animals" in the other modern societies.

How unusual that people from different cultures behave differently!!

ANd you are now arguing that the US is in danger of a lack of promiscuous sex after claiming that the US is awash in promiscuous sex


Poor people have married for most of human history. Deciding that you'd rather have money than companionship is a personal choice.

A lot of women simply don't want to give up their careers for the hassle of raising a family.
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The Japanese are not poor.

And I've proven that they do want to give up their careers. In fact, as the article I linked to show, a large majority of those women do not have any career. From the article:

At the same time, while some women with careers become active in society, the majority, whether they are single or married, still wind up in insecure employment positions, many of them becoming part-time workers or temporary staff dispatched from employment agencies. As a result, having a job did not make such women financially independent, and the need for wives to depend on their husbands did not change.
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Once again, you're making stuff up
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
A lot of women simply don't want to give up their careers for the hassle of raising a family.
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Here's a chart showing regular employment for single women. It shows regular employment for women declining dramatically, which is odd for a group that has chosen a career over marriage

a01002en_fig04.jpg
 
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