Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

RiverDad · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Lursa said:
True. But in the US, there's no way to change the natural progression that goes along with recognizing women as equal without the backwards steps of restricting us and our rights. Which would be completely unConstitutional.

What we're experiencing is not natural. My turn to laugh HA HA HA. Okay, done laughing. This social revolution is being driven and shaped by conscious decisions and informed by philosophy. What can be done, can be undone, or can be done in a different fashion.

As to Constitutionality, the Constitution is simply what judges say it is. Times changes and so do Constitutional issues.

So you cannot restrict women. Society has to adapt. Society and culture will adapt.

History is chock full of societies which died. There is no WILL ADAPT in play here. Maybe we can adapt, maybe we can't. I doubt we can because we're not dealing with issues which are entirely social constructions. When the social constructions we concoct with our minds and philosophies get too far out of whack with human nature, then the house of cards either falls or has to be unbuilt/rebuilt.

I only see it as was already posted by someone else in the thread...that men no longer have the same political and financial control over women. Who is to say that was ever 'right?'

We'll see if that was right. Will women adapt to preferring men who they don't admire if we continue to see the sex disparity in college admissions and subsequent careers? We already see from the social science literature that high earning women tend to divorce their lower earning husbands at a higher rate than what we see from control relationships. The power imbalance in those marriages leads to, generally speaking, women not being as satisfied with the marriage. This is female hypergamy. Wanting to marry up.

How's that old saying go? "Hey baby, you can have it all." Something like that. That's not likely to be true. There are always opportunity costs when we make choices. I can't see this being an exception.

Lursa · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

OK. It's late and I'm ready for bed. So maybe this is completely off track here but is it possible that men no longer feel like competing for women? Or today feel like they have to work harder to get one? They feel like they are entitled to a woman? And one that will accept them as 'the head of the house?' Hmmmmmm.

(I am not presuming that it's a competitive thing....it's just a theory, lol)

No flames please. Not meaning offense.

Lursa · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

RiverDad said:
What we're experiencing is not natural. My turn to laugh HA HA HA. Okay, done laughing. This social revolution is being driven and shaped by conscious decisions and informed by philosophy. What can be done, can be undone, or can be done in a different fashion.

As to Constitutionality, the Constitution is simply what judges say it is. Times changes and so do Constitutional issues.

History is chock full of societies which died. There is no WILL ADAPT in play here. Maybe we can adapt, maybe we can't. I doubt we can because we're not dealing with issues which are entirely social constructions. When the social constructions we concoct with our minds and philosophies get too far out of whack with human nature, then the house of cards either falls or has to be unbuilt/rebuilt.

We'll see if that was right. Will women adapt to preferring men who they don't admire if we continue to see the sex disparity in college admissions and subsequent careers? We already see from the social science literature that high earning women tend to divorce their lower earning husbands at a higher rate than what we see from control relationships. The power imbalance in those marriages leads to, generally speaking, women not being as satisfied with the marriage. This is female hypergamy. Wanting to marry up.

How's that old saying go? "Hey baby, you can have it all." Something like that. That's not likely to be true. There are always opportunity costs when we make choices. I can't see this being an exception.

How is it 'unnatural?' What are you basing that on? Biology? Religion? The Constitution? (You've already implied that doesnt even matter.)

This country was founded on equality for all men. SCOTUS chose to eventually include blacks and women in that. We are going to have to live with that, sorry. Unless you think you can get it overturned. Good luck with that.

Are you implying that men cannot adapt to women on an equal footing in academia and the workplace? If they cannot, then they deserve to take their place lower in society. I do not for a moment believe that but that is what your 4th paragraph seems to imply.

And why should women be satisfied with marriages where they do not feel empowered and equal? Men with superior incomes divorced same age wives for younger women for millenia and still do it. What on Earth are you saying is different? You're just pissed that now, women may more often be in the same position if they choose! That's just hypocritical. Neither is right but certainly men cannot claim the high road here.

Maybe men tried to have it all 'before' and that aint true either.

RiverDad · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Lursa said:
OK. It's late and I'm ready for bed. So maybe this is completely off track here but is it possible that men no longer feel like competing for women? Or today feel like they have to work harder to get one? They feel like they are entitled to a woman? And one that will accept them as 'the head of the house?' Hmmmmmm.

(I am not presuming that it's a competitive thing....it's just a theory, lol)

Men are still competing for women but what's happening is that, without marriage pressure in the pot, the time of first marriage is being pushed back. During this time women are throwing their hat in the ring to snag that most-admired man. So these top guys get a lot of female attention but the competition amongst women is more fierce. Meanwhile the Star-Trek nerds are the losers in the game. This is a fun time for women, the single life can be terrific. The problem is that this time, in the 20s, is also the time that women are best equipped to find a mate. The young women who do get married at this time, likely find pretty good mates. The guys who are still single are the guys at the top of the pecking order and the ones at the bottom. The guys at the top are having a great time and enjoying the female attention. The guys at the bottom are frustrated and dropping out. As more women choose to settle down, the male pool of potential mates keeps lowering in quality. By the time their 20s are over, many women have given those prime years of their lives to guys who are no longer in the picture and are now deigning to settle for the men that they had previously rejected. Some guys, by this point, don't find that offer too enticing and instead choose to remain single where they had once wanted to get married.

That graph I posted earlier, constrained the choices of both men and women and resulted in a more equal pairing dynamic. There are costs and benefits to that type of social order. It's not just costs.

RiverDad · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Lursa said:
How is it 'unnatural?'

What I'm saying is that women's liberation is not like a force of nature, like the tide coming in. It's the creation of people. It's a choice. It's not of nature.

And why should women be satisfied with marriages where they do not feel empowered and equal?

It's not a matter of how things SHOULD be, it's a matter of how things ARE. Men and women FEEL what they feel, they don't feel what a philosophy instructs them to feel. You can't train yourself to be happy if you're sad.

Men with superior incomes divorced same age wives for younger women for millenia and still do it. What on Earth are you saying is different?

These men didn't divorce their wives BECAUSE the man earned more than the woman and this made the men respect the woman less.

Look upthread, someone posted a link to the NYT about the sex lives of married couples where the men who were more egalitarian had a less frequent sex life than the men who were following a more traditional male role within a marriage. Feminists women SHOULD be more attracted to the egalitarian men because that's what their philosophy suggests is desirable. Instead the feminist women WERE more attracted to the more traditional male behavior and rewarded these men with more sex.

DA60 · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

RiverDad said:
What I'm saying is that women's liberation is not like a force of nature, like the tide coming in. It's the creation of people. It's a choice. It's not of nature.

It's not a matter of how things SHOULD be, it's a matter of how things ARE. Men and women FEEL what they feel, they don't feel what a philosophy instructs them to feel. You can't train yourself to be happy if you're sad.

These men didn't divorce their wives BECAUSE the man earned more than the woman and this made the men respect the woman less.

Look upthread, someone posted a link to the NYT about the sex lives of married couples where the men who were more egalitarian had a less frequent sex life than the men who were following a more traditional male role within a marriage. Feminists women SHOULD be more attracted to the egalitarian men because that's what their philosophy suggests is desirable. Instead the feminist women WERE more attracted to the more traditional male behavior and rewarded these men with more sex.

So treating woman as less then equal means that men get more 'rewarded' with sex?

What kind of sex?

I have been with both types of women...and I found sex with a woman who wanted to 'do-whatever-I-wanted' was great at first, but got boring real quick...it was like being with an expensive escort.
Whereas the more discriminating type I found to be far more imaginative and emotional and (generally) intelligent. The sex was far more equal and rewarding.

Sure, for the chauvinist who likes his women to do what he wants, you are right. Women that like being dominated/subservient will (IMO) tend to 'spread their legs' more often and without question. They will lay there and require less from the man. And they will work harder to please their guy. Sounds empty and useless to me.

Also; intelligent, strong, independent women generally do not go for the 'subservient to man' routine. They might dabble in it every now and then. But long term? I doubt it...not for most of them.
The type that wants to be 'controlled' generally are less intelligent and/or less confident and/or less independent.
Those type do not interest me for long...I want an equal...not a sex robot that cooks (though there are times when I am feeling more 'base' that the latter holds an appeal...but never for long).

And guys who read this - please save your endless stories of fantastic sex with incredible women who do whatever you please (or from women who say pleasing their men is the best kind of sex)...it means NOTHING to me.
I have known LOTS and LOTS of guys who thought their women loved their sex life...only to find out that they actually did not but were too afraid/intimidated/ignorant to say what they really felt...EVEN when the guy asked them straight up.
Often times (with exceptions), women that claim up and down that they love the man being in charge ALL the time, really only think that because they believe that is how they are supposed to feel...not how they actually feel.

So yes guys that want a woman they can order about...you should probably go to another country besides America to find her. Try someplace where women still have few rights and are taught to look up to and always respect their men.

<blah>

But be careful, you may get more then you bargained for.
Often times, when those women come to America and see that they actually can be equal...they quickly tire of the 'old' ways and desire a taste of feeling equal...as they should.

Commie · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Your Star said:
Yeah, there is not widespread "disrespect towards men" in this country. The premise is just ridiculous.

The premise in the OP is the usual right wing strategy of the oppressor time and time again, claiming to be the one who is oppressed! This is the mentality of men who are selfish, self-absorbed, self-centered, and just want to focus on their own feelings of inadequacy, rejection and resentment. English translation: American women (and other western women) won't just shut up and take whatever crap I want to dish out, so I need some foreign woman, who comes from the Orient, the Middle East or maybe the Philippines - where women are really treated like crap...and by comparison, I'll look like a knight in shining armor!

Cephus · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Your Star said:
Yeah, there is not widespread "disrespect towards men" in this country. The premise is just ridiculous.

Well, if you're talking about a lot of radical feminists there certainly is. They hate men with a passion and are quite open about it.

Dragonfly · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

The OP is one of the most ridiculous and insanely idiotic posts I've seen in a while. Just dumb.

Poor pitiful American men are being mistreated and bullied?????????????

We're all being oppressed?????

The American womenz are out to get us????????

What a god damned joke.

This thread isn't serious is it? Conspiracy theory section at best for this trash....

DA60 · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:
The OP is one of the most ridiculous and insanely idiotic posts I've seen in a while. Just dumb.

Poor pitiful American men are being mistreated and bullied?????????????

We're all being oppressed?????

The American womenz are out to get us????????

What a god damned joke.

This thread isn't serious is it? Conspiracy theory section at best for this trash....

Well, calling it 'insanely idiotic' is too harsh, IMO.

But I agree with just about everything else you typed.

This thread is probably going to bring out a lot if men who crave the 'good ole days' when 'men were men and fish were fish'.

You know...guys that watch Mad Men and long for those times (me - I can't watch that show...it's just too archaic for me...but each to their own).

Commie · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:
Some men DO want a woman they can control, and they don't want a woman who can think for herself. I think this is one reason why some conservative men seem to be "interested" in young teen girls or want to go "get a woman" from another country because they are under the impression she will be more submissive.

I think that was a direct hit.

Dragonfly · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

DA60 said:
Well, calling it 'insanely idiotic' is too harsh, IMO.

The OP makes it sound like there's a nation-wide, active conspiracy by women to attack all men.

DA60 · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:
The OP makes it sound like there's a nation-wide, active conspiracy by women to attack all men.

Hey, I agree the OP is nonsense.

But I just happen to think calling people's ideas 'insanely idiotic' is not 'nice'.

He is saying what he (apparently) believes. I don't think it's the product if insanity...just 'misguidedness'.

Besides...if the mods won't let me even say 'have a nice day' because they say it is an insult or something negative (true story)...then you should not be able to call someone's thoughts 'insanely idiotic'.

Ad_Captandum · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Of course I would marry an American woman. What sort of a stupid question is that?

I'd also marry a Frenchwoman, a Briton, an Arab, a Chinese, an African, a Brazilian... It's all about the person. Their nationality has nothing to do with it.

I will note, though, that a shocking amount of people in this thread are saying 'no' on the grounds of American women being less and less traditional. To that, I ask: What sort of backwoods troglodyte wants a servant instead of a friend and lover? What is wrong with you people?

Commie · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Yup, being raped and bred to death and sold like livestock sounds great. :roll:

Although most men didn't get a great deal either. Patriarchy also helps justify treating non-wealthy men as essentially cannon fodder.

The only people who truly benefitted from patriarchy are wealthy men, but to claim women had some kind of cushy life shows a complete ignorance of history, and even modern reality. Some of those unfortunate women who lived under stronger patriarchies, or still do, are still alive, you know.

That's right! And like all class-based systems, the aristocrats or oligarchs or whoever the hell the rich are who wield power, they attempt to maintain the loyalty of their base by keeping them focused on oppressing other groups further down in the pecking order...blacks, latinos, non-christians....and women.

Some day I'll have to get around to starting up a thread on patriarchy...as I'm noticing that everyone from feminists to misogynists seems to think that some sort of patriarchy is the starting point for human culture and civilization...even though male-dominated societies that are patrilineal and patrilocal, didn't even exist until less than 6000 years ago. It's not behaviour that's hardwired into us, and the levels of aggression and destruction that have resulted, should tell us that it has to end and be replaced by more equitable, peaceful societies, or the human race will be extinct in a few more generations.

Commie · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Dragonfly said:
The OP makes it sound like there's a nation-wide, active conspiracy by women to attack all men.

He writes the same style on every issue...whether it's defending Neoliberal capitalist theory or denying climate change.

Surtr · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:
If given the chance to re-marry would you marry (another) American woman?

I'd have to lean towards no, but there's always an exception to the rule. I just can't relate to most American women I meet these days. Unlike the tone of this OP, I don't blame anyone. It's just that I'm only compatible with a person who, in all likelihood, does not exist. The biggest deal breakers I have encountered is that I am uncompromising in not wanting children, and that I'm bat**** crazy. I'm guessing it's mostly the fact that I'm bat**** crazy.

Infinite Chaos · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

DDD said:
Well those are the codes. I am not saying that they are followed 100% from everyone --

Anymore?

Did anyone ever shoot their wife under this code? Were women given a bullet by the husband's female relatives in case he played around?

Just curious.

Soupnazi630 · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:
If given the chance to re-marry would you marry (another) American woman?

Increasingly the answer is "no".

Men are increasingly disrespected by American women. They face extreme economic and social disadvantages in family law that makes it possible for a wife to divorce them and take most of what they have including their children for any reason or no reason. They are constantly told that they are worthless and stupid. Disrespect for men has become standard practice. Men are disrespected by their wives – they’re disrespected publicly, they’re disrespected privately, they’re disrespected and then told that they have no right to be upset about it because they aren’t worthy of respect in the first place.

Disrespect of men is a joke to Americans now.

The result has been that men are increasingly dropping out of society. They don't marry, they don't go to college because they see no reason to break their humps to get ready to provide for a family -- they aren't going to be having a family.

Lots has been written about this phenomena, most of it in the strain of "why is it that men are so childish now." But men are not dropping out because of arrested development. They are acting rationally in response to myriad laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century.

Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters: Helen Smith: 9781594036750: Amazon.com: Books

All true and the " problem " of men not marrying is growing with no signs of slowing down or stopping.

They are being insulted because people are starting to worry and do not know what else to do. It is not something which can be stopped. They are worried however as it affects the economy and many other parts of society.

It is not a local problem in America however.

Internationally men are bailing on marriage in growing numbers. What surprises me most is that the phenomenon seems to be bigger in other countries such as Japan where such men are called " grass eaters " which is borderline insulting in that culture. Australia is also concerned as is Canada and England.

lizzie · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

cpwill said:
Men need respect in a marriage the way women need love in a marriage. If your culture isn't designed to teach men to be loving towards women, and to teach women to be respectful towards men, well, one or more likely both of those genders isn't going to be getting their emotional needs filled, and it's going to poison the relationship.

Worth noting before anyone decides to launch a collective bra-burning, "respect" =/= "subservience".

Interestingly, a friend of mine and I were having this same conversation just a couple of weeks ago. She is from Macedonia, and a gorgeous, intelligent, and strong woman. She was lamenting that American men don't seem to feel comfortable with being a strong figure in a relationship anymore. It is not that she needs a strong man because she is weak, but that she wants a man who us willing to be her equal, so that she will not dominate him.

d0gbreath · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Where the white wimmen at?

But srsly, the two most attractive women currently in my life are the P.A. at the doctor's office. She's Latina. Then my new optometrist, a gorgeous babe of India descent. The latter might be white/Indian mix.

Those two are gorgeous and they have the benefit of good annual incomes. Polygamy seems to be my absolute best option in this scenario. I just need to figure out how to convert them to Mormonism.

cpwill · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

lizzie said:
Interestingly, a friend of mine and I were having this same conversation just a couple of weeks ago. She is from Macedonia, and a gorgeous, intelligent, and strong woman. She was lamenting that American men don't seem to feel comfortable with being a strong figure in a relationship anymore. It is not that she needs a strong man because she is weak, but that she wants a man who us willing to be her equal, so that she will not dominate him.

Well, now take that and match it to all the television couples you see. As a culture, we do not encourage men to be men anymore, but instead seem to celebrate models of marriages in which "strong independent women" do, in fact, often dominate their husbands, or are constantly wiser than their husbands, etc. so on and so forth. If the old model was Leave It To Beaver, the new model is The Simpsons.

joG · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

RiverDad said:
Let's understand what is going on as this revolution unfolds. The older, more oppressive, system which governed society certainly constrained choices and there were consequences from those constrained choices. This newer model system has certainly opened up choices and this too has created consequences.

Which system is better is a complicated question which rests on how we define "better."

Most people will go for the "feel good" test in defining "better", from what I see here or in the nunbers. Why this is, I do not know. Possibly it is irresponsibility or maybe only not understanding the consequences.

But it is the way our present culture seems to work. Not only here. The deficits are a similar problem.

Gardener · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Ad_Captandum said:
What sort of backwoods troglodyte wants a servant instead of a friend and lover?

The typical one by the looks of it.

Otherwise, they would lose their membership in good standing.

Gipper · Feb 25, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Stay single. Problem solved.

Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

Yes

No

Does not apply to me.

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