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Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

  • Total voters
    83
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Let the girls have K-12. Once you get into secondary school, the numbers damn near flip.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:
Well, I didn't read where anyone was advocating for "bratty" behavior, just saying that maybe the way our education system is set up, it may favor girls over boys. A question for you, German guy, do you think this gender gap related to academic success is related to bad parenting? Perhaps little boys become discouraged with school at a young age. I wonder what kinds of effects all of this "medicating" our boys is going to have too.

USATODAY.com - Girls get extra school help while boys get Ritalin
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I don't know enough about the American school system to comment on it, but yeah, the German school system is seriously screwed up. It doesn't take individual strengthes and weaknesses, as well as individual problems of the pupils into account. It basically teaches mediocrity. Poor students don't get the necessary extra help to make up, especially strong students soon get bored because they have no challenge. And pupils with troubles at home as well as certain medical conditions are way too often just shrugged off as "dumb", because the teachers don't feel responsible at all beyond giving grades.

That the system doesn't need to be extraordinarily expensive yet work better, we can witness in Scandinavia or the Netherlands.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Sorry, but I find the education aspect of this conversation much more fascinating than the marriage and American woman stuff. :lol:

I really do think that in some instances, the way our education system is set up and how our children are expected to "behave" in school is sometimes in favor of girls, and I think that can have some long-term effects on boys and how they view education in general. I think it must be discouraging for some who maybe need different ways of expressing themselves.

I definitely think that there have been a lot of changes made to our education system and that it is not like it once was, and that some of the expectations placed upon young children are unrealistic to say the least. I am certainly not a fan of the "No Child Left Behind" act which seems so superficial and shallow. It really doesn't solve any problems, and as an unintended consequence has actually created more problems IMO.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
Well sorry if I offended anybody, but I simply couldn't take this polemic hyperbole about "men being victims" seriously. ;) Again, sorry, I'll try to avoid such statements now.
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I don't think they are "victims" per se, but I can see how some boys might find the school environment less than ideal for their educational needs. I don't think anyone (in general) is intentionally trying to hurt boys or men though.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
I don't know enough about the American school system to comment on it, but yeah, the German school system is seriously screwed up. It doesn't take individual strengthes and weaknesses, as well as individual problems of the pupils into account. It basically teaches mediocrity. Poor students don't get the necessary extra help to make up, especially strong students soon get bored because they have no challenge. And pupils with troubles at home as well as certain medical conditions are way too often just shrugged off as "dumb", because the teachers don't feel responsible at all beyond giving grades.

That the system doesn't need to be extraordinarily expensive yet work better, we can witness in Scandinavia or the Netherlands.
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Yes, I feel the same about our school system here. It is mediocre at best. I wonder what role teachers unions play into all of this. Let's be honest, they do tend to encourage a kind of "mediocrity." I know this was a big problem in a small city nearby to where I live (actually in the next state but close enough by where I hear their news). The head of education in that town actually fired teachers, and there was a HUGE uproar about it from the teachers unions, but these teachers were NOT up to par, and many of them were very much under. The union still wanted to protect them though, at the cost of our students and their educations.

Even back when I was in school I remember having more mediocre teachers who could not keep a child's interest, than the interesting teachers who actually took an interest in their students and what made them "tick" so to speak. Those few teachers who took a real interest in the students made learning fun for all of us! :)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:
Yes, I feel the same about our school system here. It is mediocre at best. I wonder what role teachers unions play into all of this. Let's be honest, they do tend to encourage a kind of "mediocrity." I know this was a big problem in a small city nearby to where I live (actually in the next state but close enough by where I hear their news). The head of education in that town actually fired teachers, and there was a HUGE uproar about it from the teachers unions, but these teachers were NOT up to par, and many of them were very much under. The union still wanted to protect them though, at the cost of our students and their educations.

Even back when I was in school I remember having more mediocre teachers who could not keep a child's interest, than the interesting teachers who actually took an interest in their students and what made them "tick" so to speak. Those few teachers who took a real interest in the students made learning fun for all of us! :)
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Imagine the horror, in Germany, 90%+ of the schools are even public, and the teachers are usually state employees who cannot be fired (unless there is gross misconduct -- just being a very bad teacher is not enough)! Imagine that!

However, I think teachers and schools are only one side of the problem ... there seems to be an increasing number of parents who either cannot or don't want to properly educate their children, the latter assuming it's the job of the teachers and blaming the schools for everything that goes wrong. Or parents with extreme expectations towards their children, who simply cannot accept when they're not talented on certain fields, and then blame the teachers -- or who overextend their children, tiger-mom-style, exerting way too much pressure on them until they finally break and/or revolt against the school/teachers. In some "hipster" quarters in Berlin, it's even more or less expected from parents to send their 3 year old children to private Chinese lessons ...
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Michael Johnson said:
Yeah, really intelligent to resort to ad hominem shaming language.
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Don't be silly! That's only Central European humor.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

joG said:
Don't be silly! That's only Central European humor.
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Yeah, for "real men", some guys are pretty whiny, eh? ;) "Boo-hoo, I'm a victim! The world is against me! Boohooo!" ;)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
Well I don't know how it is in America, but that term is usually used in Germany, in my experience, by parents who have no problem shrugging off the behavior of their boys, who are schoolyard bullies, intimidating weaker pupils (often including girls) and generally showing no respect whatsoever for weaker fellows, as "typical boy behavior".

I'm sure boys are to some extent different than girls, but that doesn't mean you should let behavior pass that will qualify your boys best for a carreer as youth delinquents or gang mobsters, and would be considered a criminal offense when people 10 years older do it.

And my guess is the main part of the gender difference many claim to observe is due to such double standards in parenting.
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Are boys in Germany put on mind altering drugs to control their behavior in class? In this case we are talking about children who don't pay attention to the teacher or are easily distracted. The other tack we see a lot in Texas is putting any children who have behavioral problems or poor grades in an alternative school. This has the all important effect of keeping test scores high for state assessment tests since children in alternative schools don't take the test. A school's rating on the state assessment has a big impact on housing prices within a school district, so the stakes here are high.

Over the 4 years of high school almost half of the boys are sent out to alternative schools in one district I know of (Friendswood ISD). Few girls are treated this way.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
Yeah, for "real men", some guys are pretty whiny, eh? ;) "Boo-hoo, I'm a victim! The world is against me! Boohooo!" ;)
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This is the wannabe alpha male getting off on pouring scorn on other men. It's just one of the things men learn to put up with.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:
This is the wannabe alpha male getting off on pouring scorn on other men. It's just one of the things men learn to put up with.
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What are you even talking about?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:
This is the wannabe alpha male getting off on pouring scorn on other men. It's just one of the things men learn to put up with.
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I doubt Alpha males go "boo hoo" under any circumstances, even as a joke.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
I explicitly stated that I oppose zero tolerance.
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So? Stop trying to rationalize the impacts of zero tolerance education with all of this "boys deserve to get in trouble" crap then. Stop trying to defend a clearly failed and ineffective system simply because it gives you an excuse partake in flamebaiting misandrist hackery.

I fail to see how this is a hard concept, Sangha. :lol:

Some people are not educable.
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Some people clearly are not cut out to be teachers.

The results prove you wrong.
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Prove it.

The "results" show you are wrong, and you damn well know it.

German guy said:
Well I don't know how it is in America, but that term is usually used in Germany, in my experience, by parents who have no problem shrugging off the behavior of their boys, who are schoolyard bullies, intimidating weaker pupils (often including girls) and generally showing no respect whatsoever for weaker fellows, as "typical boy behavior".

I'm sure boys are to some extent different than girls, but that doesn't mean you should let behavior pass that will qualify your boys best for a carreer as youth delinquents or gang mobsters, and would be considered a criminal offense when people 10 years older do it.

And my guess is the main part of the gender difference many claim to observe is due to such double standards in parenting.
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While I am inclined to believe that even anti-bullying measures tend to be somewhat overblown these days, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that bullying isn't even what most boys are getting in trouble for.

They're getting in trouble over idiotic things like making pretend guns with their fingers and (consentually, I might add) kissing girls on the cheek. They are also being doped up in order to ensure that they conform to the ludicrously unrealistic standards of behavior schools have chosen to enforce.

I wouldn't say that the "sky is falling" here or anything, but it would seem to be fairly clear that there is, in fact, a problem.
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
While I am inclined to believe that even anti-bullying measures tend to be somewhat overblown these days, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that bullying isn't even what most boys are getting in trouble for.

They're getting in trouble over idiotic things like making pretend guns with their fingers and (consentually, I might add) kissing girls on the cheek. They are also being doped up in order to ensure that the conform to the ludicrously unrealistic standards of behavior schools have chosen to enforce.

I wouldn't say that the "sky is falling" here or anything, but it would seem to be fairly clear that there is, in fact, a problem.
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When that's the case, I totally agree with you.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
I don't think men are generally victims. Individual people, male or female, are victims for different, individual reasons.

*In general*, I'd say women are still individually facing many structural disadvantages, such as male rope teams in many professions that makes it more difficult for them to achieve than for men, but then, that's not the case in all professions and for all women. Also, in many fields, women are facing disadvantages on the labor market (at least in Germany), because they're expected to get a child and thus leave for a while, which is considered a disadvantage by many employers. Accordingly, women often get less pay for the same work. Way too often, women still are forced to choose between either carreer or family.

For example, it's still the case that only around 10% of the top positions in German economy and politics are occupied by women, and nobody can tell me that's because women are ten times less competent or qualified on these fields.

But then, that's just statistics. In some fields, like "caring" jobs such as nurses or nursery teachers, the situation is reversed and men suffer that disadvantage due to female rope teams and gender clichés in the minds of people.

Then, there are still many stereotypical gender roles presents in the minds of both men and women, which cause disadvantages for many people, sometimes men (when they don't meet the typical male cliché in some circles), but statistically probably more often women.
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I take a more pragmatic view. Men also rise to the higher levels here much more than the women too - UNLESS - the woman forgoes a family and children and is 100% career oriented at the same level many men are. When she is, there is little difference between the genders here in the USA. But when the woman is the logical one to stay home with the kids when they are sick, to take off the 12 weeks family leave to have another baby, to quit and go with her husband when he is transferred, to need to leave early to pick up the kids or to come in late because the baby sitter didn't show up, then she frankly is simply not as valuable to the business as is a man of equal ability who doesn't have those kinds of distractions. The men who share those responsibilities with their wives may be equally disadvantaged but it usually doesn't turn out that way. Most women want their husband to be the primary bread winner and chose to take the hits so that he can be the primary bread winner.

Note: I said MOST, not all. There are exceptions. But I happen to believe that most men and women are just wired differently with both being happiest when the man is the chief bread winner and the woman's job is considered to be the expendable one if necessary.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

AlbqOwl said:
I take a more pragmatic view. Men also rise to the higher levels here much more than the women too - UNLESS - the woman forgoes a family and children and is 100% career oriented at the same level many men are. When she is, there is little difference between the genders here in the USA. But when the woman is the logical one to stay home with the kids when they are sick, to take off the 12 weeks family leave to have another baby, to quit and go with her husband when he is transferred, to need to leave early to pick up the kids or to come in late because the baby sitter didn't show up, then she frankly is simply not as valuable to the business as is a man of equal ability who doesn't have those kinds of distractions. The men who share those responsibilities with their wives may be equally disadvantaged but it usually doesn't turn out that way. Most women want their husband to be the primary bread winner and chose to take the hits so that he can be the primary bread winner.

Note: I said MOST, not all. There are exceptions. But I happen to believe that most men and women are just wired differently with both being happiest when the man is the chief bread winner and the woman's job is considered to be the expendable one if necessary.
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It seems to me that men, and women, need to be needed. If they are only forming a limited partnership with each doing newly defined PC roles, not the historical roles usually assigned to each sex, then each may get the feeling of 'is that all there is'. It becomes 'companionship'.

Yuppiehood may bring happiness for a while but I doubt it leads to long term satisfaction.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

AlbqOwl said:
I take a more pragmatic view. Men also rise to the higher levels here much more than the women too - UNLESS - the woman forgoes a family and children and is 100% career oriented at the same level many men are. When she is, there is little difference between the genders here in the USA. But when the woman is the logical one to stay home with the kids when they are sick, to take off the 12 weeks family leave to have another baby, to quit and go with her husband when he is transferred, to need to leave early to pick up the kids or to come in late because the baby sitter didn't show up, then she frankly is simply not as valuable to the business as is a man of equal ability who doesn't have those kinds of distractions. The men who share those responsibilities with their wives may be equally disadvantaged but it usually doesn't turn out that way. Most women want their husband to be the primary bread winner and chose to take the hits so that he can be the primary bread winner.

Note: I said MOST, not all. There are exceptions. But I happen to believe that most men and women are just wired differently with both being happiest when the man is the chief bread winner and the woman's job is considered to be the expendable one if necessary.
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Since you added the note, I'm inclined to agree with you to some extent. The traditional role model is certainly still attractive for many, both males and females, and if they want to live it, good for them.

However, I'd argue that way too often, employers and laws don't take those into account enough who want to live a different model, IMO. Sure, it's biological reality that only women can bear and give birth to a child, but that doesn't mean women who want to have both carreer and family should be disadvantaged towards men who want to have both.

Probably you'll disagree, but IMO, that's one of the cases when regulation and correction of shortcomings of the free market is legitimate, because humans are worth more than what they can make on the market. Call me a statist, if you like. ;)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

AlbqOwl said:
But us girls didn't really feel all that discriminated against or deprived. I figured out early on that if I wanted to compete in a man's world, I had to be as good or better than a man at what I do. I have applied that philosophy to a lengthy working life. . . .

Our focus should always be on what works, what is edifying, what is practical, what is successful. That often means putting a whole lot of political correctness crap way down on the list of priorities.
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Let me recount for you some information I picked up from my research a few years ago.

It should not be surprising that girls tend to like reading fiction more than boys, this has been observed for a very long time. When there were more men in the teaching profession and before liberalism/feminism took over the field, the goal was to find ways to get more boys reading. They found that boys liked to read adventure books, tales of heroism, and such and that girls didn't mind reading those types of books and there was no fall-off in reading enthusiasm amongst girls. So good, do what works, help boys, don't harm girls. All is good.

Now come the liberals/feminists. They want to push message in the reading list. They want to push stories about alcoholic families, stories about sex abuse, stories about sex discrimination. Guess what happens? Girls are still reading this stuff but more and more boys have tuned out. They can't sustain the interest or concentration required to read these stories. They're not as engaged in the stories as the girls. Well, tough luck for the boys because what matters most is the message of this Young Adult Literature, not developing reading skills and improving reading comprehension in the students.
 
LowDown said:
If given the chance to re-marry would you marry (another) American woman?

Increasingly the answer is "no".

Men are increasingly disrespected by American women. They face extreme economic and social disadvantages in family law that makes it possible for a wife to divorce them and take most of what they have including their children for any reason or no reason. They are constantly told that they are worthless and stupid. Disrespect for men has become standard practice. Men are disrespected by their wives – they’re disrespected publicly, they’re disrespected privately, they’re disrespected and then told that they have no right to be upset about it because they aren’t worthy of respect in the first place.

Disrespect of men is a joke to Americans now.

The result has been that men are increasingly dropping out of society. They don't marry, they don't go to college because they see no reason to break their humps to get ready to provide for a family -- they aren't going to be having a family.

Lots has been written about this phenomena, most of it in the strain of "why is it that men are so childish now." But men are not dropping out because of arrested development. They are acting rationally in response to myriad laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century.

Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters: Helen Smith: 9781594036750: Amazon.com: Books
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1.) whats an american woman? thats just stupid
2.) even more stupid is if the only reason a person goes to college is to provide for a family

just seems to me people are trying to blame their faults on others or judging the faults of others and applying that judgement to the group

sorry i dont relate to this at all, maybe my family and the whole area i live in (Pittsburgh) and the places i often travel (DC area and Chicago) area aren't like this yet

or maybe i just see PEOPLE as PEOPLE some agree some do not lol
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

ChrisL said:
I can't comment because I wasn't even a twinkling in my parents' eyes yet! :lol: I do know what I have observed and read though, and that is that teachers and school administrators are sometimes keen on putting little boys on mind-altering substances so that they "behave" in school. Sounds kind of like a bunch of "Stepford" children if you ask me. :) Perhaps it has to do with clothing, but I'm not sure.
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A lot of this has to do with the increasing levels of feminization of teaching and the feminist agenda of reforming schooling practices to improve female performance metrics. Teaching has always had a large female presence but the imbalance is getting worse. Some kids go through the first 6-8 years of public schooling without ever encountering a male teacher. Female teachers know what it's like to be a girl, so they're not quite sure what to make of all the fidgety boys. Then they're trained to specifically try to boost female interaction. For instance, boys are more eager to answer questions and volunteer, or show off, their knowledge. Teachers are trained to pay attention to not calling on the eager boys and instead try to coax the reluctant girls to engage in public in order to boost their levels of self-confidence. The point is that there is a lot of attention placed on girls and not so much on boys. Combine teacher training with a feminized work force where feminine behaviors are the norm and with little male teacher input offsetting those norms, and you don't create a learning environment conducive to educating young boys.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Grant said:
It seems to me that men, and women, need to be needed. If they are only forming a limited partnership with each doing newly defined PC roles, not the historical roles usually assigned to each sex, then each may get the feeling of 'is that all there is'. It becomes 'companionship'.

Yuppiehood may bring happiness for a while but I doubt it leads to long term satisfaction.
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:) To an extent, if I understand what you are saying here, I probably agree. As I previously posted, I have probably been married, to the same guy, for more years than most of you are old. And we've had just about every scenario you can think of thrown at us in all that time, but we got through it, and we are still best friends, companions, and very much in love. But. . . .even though I have worked most of those years that we were married, we had a traditional marriage because we both wanted it that way. He was the chief bread winner and head of household; I was the heart of the home and supplemented our income while arranging my life that I could also be there for the kids when they needed a parent. People have been engaging in marriage for a very long time now, and many have figured out how to make it work to everybody's satisfaction.

I could add that there was a year or so in there that he tried to retire and stay home and be a house husband. I had a great paying job with long, demanding hours, and that sounded great to me. I always figured I would have it made if I just had a good wife. But we found out we were both uncomfortable switching roles like that. It just didn't feel right. We just aren't wired the same.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

RiverDad said:
Let me recount for you some information I picked up from my research a few years ago.

It should not be surprising that girls tend to like reading fiction more than boys, this has been observed for a very long time. When there were more men in the teaching profession and before liberalism/feminism took over the field, the goal was to find ways to get more boys reading. They found that boys liked to read adventure books, tales of heroism, and such and that girls didn't mind reading those types of books and there was no fall-off in reading enthusiasm amongst girls. So good, do what works, help boys, don't harm girls. All is good.

Now come the liberals/feminists. They want to push message in the reading list. They want to push stories about alcoholic families, stories about sex abuse, stories about sex discrimination. Guess what happens? Girls are still reading this stuff but more and more boys have tuned out. They can't sustain the interest or concentration required to read these stories. They're not as engaged in the stories as the girls. Well, tough luck for the boys because what matters most is the message of this Young Adult Literature, not developing reading skills and improving reading comprehension in the students.
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I can't argue with that. I have noticed the same thing when women start taking more leadership roles in church and other civic and social organizations. Little by little they take over more and more responsibility and the men do less and less. Why? Because the women don't delegate as well and therefore take on much more detail work while the guys are just much better at automatically spreading the duties around. Again there are exceptions, but I've seen it happen again and again. Men and women are just wired differently.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
Since you added the note, I'm inclined to agree with you to some extent. The traditional role model is certainly still attractive for many, both males and females, and if they want to live it, good for them.

However, I'd argue that way too often, employers and laws don't take those into account enough who want to live a different model, IMO. Sure, it's biological reality that only women can bear and give birth to a child, but that doesn't mean women who want to have both carreer and family should be disadvantaged towards men who want to have both.

Probably you'll disagree, but IMO, that's one of the cases when regulation and correction of shortcomings of the free market is legitimate, because humans are worth more than what they can make on the market. Call me a statist, if you like. ;)
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LOL. Okay you're a statist, but an honest one. I'm a pragmatist and look for what works well and what makes people happiest. So long as women have the choice of devoting her life to a career or devoting her life to making a home for a husband and children or splitting her energies between the two as I have done, I just don't see a problem for her, and I don't think standards of performance should be lowered to accommodate her. But that's just me.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

German guy said:
Imagine the horror, in Germany, 90%+ of the schools are even public, and the teachers are usually state employees who cannot be fired (unless there is gross misconduct -- just being a very bad teacher is not enough)! Imagine that!

However, I think teachers and schools are only one side of the problem ... there seems to be an increasing number of parents who either cannot or don't want to properly educate their children, the latter assuming it's the job of the teachers and blaming the schools for everything that goes wrong. Or parents with extreme expectations towards their children, who simply cannot accept when they're not talented on certain fields, and then blame the teachers -- or who overextend their children, tiger-mom-style, exerting way too much pressure on them until they finally break and/or revolt against the school/teachers. In some "hipster" quarters in Berlin, it's even more or less expected from parents to send their 3 year old children to private Chinese lessons ...
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The saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" applies here for it is the student who is the most important factor with regards to his success. The teacher is the secondary actor in the pupil-teacher relationship.

Parents are falling down in their responsibility. Students are not working as they should. And teachers are failing to. But teachers are the least responsible.

I read a few years back in the UK papers, but I didn't save the link, that the school board sent letters to parents urging them to engage with their children's homework more because the teachers needed more time during the school day to socialize the students. It was an astounding report and I've kicked myself for not saving the link because I can't find it anymore. The schools were setting out to do the parent's job because, either the parents weren't doing their job or the teachers felt that their values were superior to those of the parents, and in order for this to happen the teachers were calling on the parents to do the job of the teachers, to help the children master the content of what they were taught. Of course the sheer absurdity of the scheme was what led to it being trashed, but it certainly did speak to how screwed up the situation was.
 
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