Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

sangha · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. There are far more similarities than there are differences.

The only differences are a matter of degree, not fundamental structure.

Yet you can't identify those similarities and support them with evidence. You even had to go as far as inanely claiming that Japan is a post-feminist society when it's actually one of the worst for gender equality amongst all the industrialized nations

Are you really going to deny that persons living at home well into their twenties has become more common over the course of the last decade in the United States?

A record 21.6 million millennials live with Mom and Dad

Get real, Sangha. :roll:

Again, the same issues exist here as exist in Japan. The only difference is the matter of degree.

In Japan, they live with their parents forever, not just into their 20's. It's qualitatively different.

No, it is associated with being a loser in Japan after a certain age as well. These men would not have picked up the derogatory "grass eating" moniker they currently carry otherwise.

Herbivore Men

And here's another instance of you seeing things that aren't there. There is no mention of it being associated with a social stigma and certainly not the way it is in the US

Over 50% of unmarried men and women under the age of thirty report not having had sex within the last year.

The Kinsey Institute

The decline of dating also well documented.

So now you're contradicting your own claims that you've made that kids today are having too much sex. Suddenly, you believe they're having very little sex.

Who, according to many feminists in this country, are being discriminated against, make less money than their males peers, and are often passed over for promotions due to their children.

They make it work.

Now you're using a feminist argument that even you don't believe. That is pretty dishonest.

Prove that their situation has anything whatsoever to do with mine.

As you said, actions matter. If you wanted to be married, you would be married - just like you described the Japanese.

I'm 25. I have the luxury.

Many of the people in Japan we are discussing are in their mid to late thirties.

If they wanted to be married, they could be.

If you wanted to be married, you could be.

It would appear that many women prefer their temp jobs to the prospect of marriage.

No, you're just imagining that.

Incorrect.

More Japanese women are working—but for the economy to thrive they need to be running things

Your link goes to an article about orange juice. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion :lamo

It has been trending no where but up for the last several years.

I posted proof that it has been going down for the last 30 years.

Low birth rates, low marriage rates, sexual discrimination in the work force, and stagnant economies hampering youth economic opportunities are universal in the industrialized world today.

The first I have already agreed are similar, but even you have admitted that they are primarily due to economic factors not cultural ones so it's not because the Japanese are abandoning traditional values.

The fact that they engage in sexual discrimination is another indication that they are clinging to traditional values. And the economic stagnation is only a few years in most of the western nations. In Japan, it's been going on for 30 years. Maybe in 25 years, you'll have a point.

Again, that is their perception. It is not necessarily reality.

Why don't you stop evading the question and post some sources detailing costs of living in Japan and what it costs to raise a family?

I guess you know more about what they can afford than they do :roll:

All that has been established so far is that Japanese men and women alike are whiners, who would rather not even try to raise a family than put in the effort to make the situation work.

Actually what has been established is that american men are whiners.

Post up the data then.

How does average income compare with the bare minimum (i.e. not the 'ideal') required to raise a family?

I already have, but feel free to post some evidence that contradicts the facts I've posted. So far, you've posted nothing to show how single men in Japan are making enough to support a family

It's exactly as credible as anything you have provided so far.

Yes, charts showing the employment rates for single men and women in Japan are no more credible than an internet poll of 300 self-selected people. :roll:

sangha · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
:roll:

Feminism in Japan

So what? It was an ideologically motivated decision.

So what? They are still the most unequal industrialized nation when it comes to gender.

Japan might be a bit less woman friendly than some other parts of the world, but that doesn't mean that feminism has not had an impact.

Might be? It's the worst!!

You are once again demonstrating how you ignore any and all evidence which contradicts your inane beliefs.

If I were to marry right now, I would be in abject poverty; able to afford neither food, shelter, nor clothing.

IOW, you have abandoned traditional values in preference for material comfort.

Again, that is not a matter of necessity. It is a matter of personal preference.

Sounds like your situation

And they would appear to be making the choice to remain celibate and single in spite of other options being available.

Again, sounds like your situation.

You do realize that the only thing that excerpt pointed to was a greater abundance of MMOs and Smart Phone apps, right? :screwy

I'd hardly consider that to be a world altering difference.

You do realize your completely wrong and it pointed to how crowded Japan is and how they lack as much privacy as we have. It says it right there in the part she bolded, and you *still* don't see it!

it's an overcrowded nation with limited physical space.

And you think that is only talking about technology!! :lamo

You are once again competely ignoring any evidence that contradicts your inane beliefs.

Mason66 · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Cephus said:
That's only when people rush to the altar and don't take the time to get to know their prospective mate. If you haven't known them for at least 5 years, you're doing it too fast.

I beleive that as well. The real personality comes out inthe 3 to 4 year range.

Glen Contrarian · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Henrin said:
We already went over that. Read the book and come back to the thread, or just do what everyone else is doing and post about Japan for some stupid reason.

Really people, the problems in japan are not related to ours.

FYI, people are people are people. Individuals and cultures may vary wildly, but generally speaking, people are pretty much the same all over. That's why we shouldn't automatically ignore what happens in other cultures by thinking it doesn't apply to us.

Jerry · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

LowDown said:
If given the chance to re-marry would you marry (another) American woman?

Increasingly the answer is "no".

Men are increasingly disrespected by American women. They face extreme economic and social disadvantages in family law that makes it possible for a wife to divorce them and take most of what they have including their children for any reason or no reason. They are constantly told that they are worthless and stupid. Disrespect for men has become standard practice. Men are disrespected by their wives – they’re disrespected publicly, they’re disrespected privately, they’re disrespected and then told that they have no right to be upset about it because they aren’t worthy of respect in the first place.

Disrespect of men is a joke to Americans now.

The result has been that men are increasingly dropping out of society. They don't marry, they don't go to college because they see no reason to break their humps to get ready to provide for a family -- they aren't going to be having a family.

Lots has been written about this phenomena, most of it in the strain of "why is it that men are so childish now." But men are not dropping out because of arrested development. They are acting rationally in response to myriad laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...veASIN=1594036756&linkCode=xm2&tag=insta0c-20

Story of my life right there.

Preach it!

Henrin · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Glen Contrarian said:
FYI, people are people are people. Individuals and cultures may vary wildly, but generally speaking, people are pretty much the same all over. That's why we shouldn't automatically ignore what happens in other cultures by thinking it doesn't apply to us.

No, we shouldn't automatically ignore what happens in other cultures, but I am in no way doing that. The situations are entirely different. What men in japan are responding to and how they are responding to it is entirely different than what men are responding to in America and how they are responding to it. If the situations were similar I would gladly talk of it, but they're not.

Gina · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
My point was that Japan is an example of just how destructive these kind of trends can become.

The idea that any society's culture would become so inherently self-centered and dysfunctional that it would run the risk of extinction not just because its members had lost interest in family, but human intimacy in general, is absolutely outlandish. Nevertheless, it has happened all the same.

There is really nothing to say that it could not happen somewhere else. :shrug:

As I've pointed out, most of the same elements which lead Japan to its current state of affairs are present here as well. It's really anyone's guess where we might ultimately end up; especially as our culture continues to trend away from committed relationships and towards technology which renders human contact in many cases unnecessary in the first place.

I'm going to remind you again, we have dispensed with Japan as an extreme example. You conceded this two replies ago:

Gathomas88 said:
Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case.

Not necessarily. Modern men can be guilty of the same sort of short-sighted and selfish thinking being described in this thread as well as women. As a matter of fact, they are often worse.

However, it cannot be denied that women are ultimately the "gate keepers" of sex and reproduction. Having them "go on strike," so to speak, ultimately causes far more harm for society in general than men doing the same.

Thank you for that concession.

Sadly enough, "going on strike" is pretty much exactly what many women in Japan, and the rest of the "post-feminist" world have done. Japan is currently in the process of falling apart because of this, and, arguably, we're not faring much better.

Dispensed with.

That remains to be seen. Given what can be observed taking place in Japan and many parts of Europe even as we speak, I sincerely doubt that the transition will be so rosy as you might like to believe.

Basically all of our population growth at the present moment is being fueled by "low income" demographics, who tend to lack much in the way of social mobility and overwhelmingly rely upon government assistance to get by. They also tend to pass on poverty and dependency from generation to generation like an inheritable disease.

If they come to outnumber the people in this country who actually produce the revenue used to support them, the system might very well collapse in on itself.

Again, Japan is out of the discussion.

I stand by my comment, attrition will take it's toll and those below a certain level will ascend as opportunities present themselves and you are pressing another unnecessary alarm button. I take exception to the claim that ALL of the U.S. population growth is the segment you describe as welfare dependent.

The birth rate stabilized in 2012

The U.S. birth rate, which had been relatively stable or rising, began falling after 2007, when the Great Recession began and the decline persisted even after the official end of the recession in 2009. But the pace of decline showed signs of slowing in 2011, when the birth rate dipped by a relatively modest 1.4% from the year before. By contrast, from 2009 to 2010, it declined by 3.2%.

The recent decline in births was led by foreign-born women, especially those from Mexico, according to a previous Pew Research analysis. The decrease in fertility was particularly steep among women with a high school diploma or less, as well as younger women. The drop was largest in states hardest hit by the recession, another Pew Research report showed.

Chart of the Week: Big drop in birth rate may be leveling off | Pew Research Center

The article can accompanying chart indicate the birth rate is stabilizing, even in the demographic you cite, which is still only 14.6 of all births in the U.S. Hispanic and Asian/Pacific Islanders have a higher birth rate and are a lesser percentage of welfare recipients. If we are going to discuss traits of certain demographics, those are not the population you are speaking of.

Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain

The kind of men mentioned in the OP.

Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters

An entirely new breed of "slacker" men have developed out of the post-sexual revolution and post-feminist world for which there is no historical precedent.

Again, with Japan serving as the prime example here, they have done so largely in reaction to the changes which have taken place in women's behavior.

Many men feel less pressure to fill a given "masculine" role, so they are choosing not to do so.

Again, Japan does not apply.

Your source is a right wing blogger, with a Phd., yes, but a regular on Pajamas Television, where her blog is posted. Not exactly a clinically neutral venue.

Why do I sense an implied put down of her life choices before the career in question here?

Is a career really necessary for a woman, or anyone, really, to define their role in the world? Is motherhood not capable of being considered a "career?"

There was no implied put down of your mother. I said she had a career, now. She waited. That is all I meant.

Of course not. But that is the choice of each individual to figure out how they want to define their lives. Not all women want to be mothers. Or mothers first.

To the contrary, many female CEOs actually follow this same trajectory; not really hitting the "big time" until their children are basically grown.

Get pregnant at 25 if you want a high-powered career

Why should women necessarily have to follow the same trajectory as men?

They're really not built for the same role. Trying to force them into it often does more harm than good.

My mother actually went so far as to tell me that her view on the matter was essentially, "You can go to work any time, but you only have so many years to have children."

Frankly, I think this is a good way to look at it. Far too many women put marriage and childrearing off thinking that they'll "get around to it eventually," and never actually do.

Many of these women wind up being rather unhappy in the long run.

The Grief of Childlessness

It might even play a role in the steady increase in suicide rates that has been observed among middle aged women (white women in particular) in recent decades as well.

I'm done reading long articles and blogs. Please cite the relevant passages you need to make your point.

The number of CEO's of fortune 500 companies: 18. Highest ever.

Why should women follow the same trajectory as men? Proven success.

It is for each woman to decide when or if she becomes a parent. Not society. And their responsibility, if they are disappointed in that choice.

Thankfully, the decision doesn't have to be binary. Women are fully capable of doing both or neither if they should so choose.

Thank you. That's all we want, is the choice.

Gina · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
Does it change anything?

Things are what they are. For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Modern notions of female "empowerment" (when pursued within a Western style feminist framework, at least) can be observed to have played a direct role in leading men to eschew their own traditional roles. Many men simply don't feel that traditionally "masculine" virtues are necessary anymore, so they have opted for self-indulgent extended adolescence instead.

Again, we can already see how destructive this sort of trend can ultimately be by looking at what has already taken place in many other parts of the world.

All that says is women are responsible for the choices men make. If they want to eschew their own roles, that's on them. Not us and since ALL women, nor a significant portion, are not forgoing children altogether, there are plenty out there with whom to propagate. As the chart I provided earlier indicated, researchers believe the birth rate has stabilized.

Bars and clubs are, for all intents and purposes, the "default" mode of inter-gender interaction for the current generation. The online dating scene is a popular alternative, but even it tends to be far more focused on "screwing around" than serious relationship building when it comes to youth demographics.

The days of meeting women "at church" or some other such venue are by and large over for most of our society. Such things have become the exception, not the rule.

You get what you find when you look in those places. If you are looking to screw around, that's what you will find.

Gina · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gathomas88 said:
There are plenty of sexually disinterested shut-ins, and people like myself, who have simply stopped trying to date, in the United States as well.

So because you have chosen to stop trying to date, you feel there is a groundswell of other guys like yourself. Now I see. Having sons in your demographic, my personal experience with them, indicates otherwise. When I include my daughter's male friends, co-workers and acquaintances, the same can be said.

Gathomas88 · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

sangha said:
Yet you can't identify those similarities and support them with evidence.

I can provide evidence for all them, and have already done so.

Their birthrates are low, women are deliberately avoiding marriage and motherhood in favor of professional pursuits, and more and more men are falling into a "slacker" myopia and pushing more adult pursuits back until later in life.

These problems are universal to the industrialized world. No amount of quibbling over irrelevant minor details on your part is going to change this.

You even had to go as far as inanely claiming that Japan is a post-feminist society when it's actually one of the worst for gender equality amongst all the industrialized nations

If concepts like "female CEOs" exist at all, it is a "post-feminist" society.

In Japan, they live with their parents forever, not just into their 20's. It's qualitatively different.

Proof?

Besides, there are plenty of people who do that in the United States as well, and it is only becoming more common as time goes by.

And here's another instance of you seeing things that aren't there. There is no mention of it being associated with a social stigma and certainly not the way it is in the US

They're being mocked and ridiculed as being "herbivores."

How on Earth do you figure that is not indicative of "stigma?"

So now you're contradicting your own claims that you've made that kids today are having too much sex. Suddenly, you believe they're having very little sex.

Not at all. It goes back to what River Dad was discussing earlier with the "sexual market place." In the post- Sexual Revolution world, promiscuity is now an option available to pretty much everyone.

However, not everyone is able to take advantage of this equally. Only the most desirable people really benefit from it. "Lower tier" people, who make up the vast majority of the population, tend to struggle, and make sexual liaisons much more infrequently as such.

A sizeable minority might not be able to find partners at all.

This doesn't change the fact that promiscuous sex outside of marriage is now more common than it was in the past across the board, even if a sizeable portion of population is essentially being "left behind."

Now you're using a feminist argument that even you don't believe. That is pretty dishonest.

So? You believe it. The logic still stands.

If you believe it to be an issue in one country, it stands to reason that it would be an issue in the other as well.

As you said, actions matter. If you wanted to be married, you would be married - just like you described the Japanese.

As I've also said, I DON'T WANT TO BE MARRIED. That's exactly the point. :lol:

If I wanted to be married right now, I would be.

No, you're just imagining that.

As are the experts, apparently. :roll:

Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage

Chikako Ogura, professor of gender studies at Waseda University in Tokyo, draws little comfort from government proposals to reverse the trend, such as adding child-care facilities and prodding employers to grant maternity leave.

The critical problem is that people aren't getting married at all. Young women have jobs and reject a marriage that won't deliver a more comfortable life, she says. Studies show men spend on average less than 10 minutes a day on housework while working women put in two hours.

"Women are looking for a marital partner who'll allow them to do whatever they want. They want a marriage that's perfect, economically and mentally. There aren't that many men who can offer that," Ogura said. "And they're all taken."

Your link goes to an article about orange juice. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion

Odd. Try this instead.

More Japanese women are working—but for the economy to thrive they need to be running things

In Nov. 2013, female labor participation among women 15 to 64 hit a record-high of 66%, a big jump from the 63.9% a year earlier

The point still stands.

I posted proof that it has been going down for the last 30 years.

Female work force participation rates are increasing.

japan-s-labor-participation-rates-workers-aged-15-64-women-men_chartbuilder.jpg

The first I have already agreed are similar, but even you have admitted that they are primarily due to economic factors not cultural ones so it's not because the Japanese are abandoning traditional values.

And, again, millions of young people fleeing marriage, commitment, and family precisely because they do not want to be bothered with "traditional values" that they feel to be constrictive, doesn't equate to the "abandoning traditional values".... How, exactly?

In Japan, it's been going on for 30 years. Maybe in 25 years, you'll have a point.

I have seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that Western economies will fare better.

I guess you know more about what they can afford than they do

Considering the kind of crap Westerners try to pull with this argument all the time...

i.e.

"I couldn't possibly afford a family right now! I just moved into a new apartment and bought a new car!"

...I will remain skeptical of the claim until I see some hard data comparing what the average unmarried Japanese person makes vs what is actually necessary to raise a family.

Actually what has been established is that american men are whiners.

:shrug: People are whiners all the way around, and its driving society into the ground.

That's kind of the point.

I already have, but feel free to post some evidence that contradicts the facts I've posted. So far, you've posted nothing to show how single men in Japan are making enough to support a family

Evasion. What are the costs of living in Japan? How much does it cost to raise a family? How does this compare with what the average couple can expect to make?

Yes, charts showing the employment rates for single men and women in Japan are no more credible than an internet poll of 300 self-selected people.

Charts showing that the vast majority of both demographics are employed, and make between 2 and 6 million yen a year.

Again, how does that compare to the costs of raising a family?

sangha said:
So what? They are still the most unequal industrialized nation when it comes to gender.

So what? They're still "post feminist."

They're also not "the worst." They simply score badly.

Sounds like your situation

Again, sounds like your situation.

Prove it. In terms of income, I am below the poverty line.

How does the average unmarried Japanese man who makes 2 to 6 million yen a year compare?

You do realize your completely wrong and it pointed to how crowded Japan is and how they lack as much privacy as we have. It says it right there in the part she bolded, and you *still* don't see it!

And you think that is only talking about technology!!

You are once again competely ignoring any evidence that contradicts your inane beliefs.

Prove that crowding plays a roll. I thought you said it was all about economics. :roll:

Lursa · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
You get what you find when you look in those places. If you are looking to screw around, that's what you will find.

I'm always amazed at people who seem to depend on bars or clubs to look for mates.

Dont people *do* anything? Have any interests? Go anywhere? And church is still a very valid place to meet people, they have lots of functions and 'friends of friends.' Why dismiss that if it is meaningful to you?

I'd rather meet someone playing frisbee in the park or walking my dog (and have) than sort thru drunk desperate guys in bars. Many women just assume that guys in bars are only looking to get laid, so dont take that very seriously. Or they're just looking for the same

Cephus · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Mason66 said:
I beleive that as well. The real personality comes out inthe 3 to 4 year range.

People rush into things and they let their emotions run wild, they never stop to think "can I actually spend the rest of my life with this person?" The vast majority of the decision needs to be intellectual, not emotional. Just falling in love isn't enough.

Lursa · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
So because you have chosen to stop trying to date, you feel there is a groundswell of other guys like yourself. Now I see. Having sons in your demographic, my personal experience with them, indicates otherwise. When I include my daughter's male friends, co-workers and acquaintances, the same can be said.

Agreed....you can easily *see* guys on the hunt all the time. How serious they are, I dont know. Maybe just looking to have sex but I go to alot of different functions and events and there are guys there, available and looking, and that's for more than sex. Same with women I'd say.

Lursa · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Cephus said:
People rush into things and they let their emotions run wild, they never stop to think "can I actually spend the rest of my life with this person?" The vast majority of the decision needs to be intellectual, not emotional. Just falling in love isn't enough.

Yes and after that first rush of emotion, people have to work harder to treat each other well and keep the relationship fresh and special. I think people forget that relationships, no matter how good, require work and compromise.

So yes, after a few yrs, some people seem to not want to bother anymore. THey have/had the wrong expectations.

Cephus · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Lursa said:
Yes and after that first rush of emotion, people have to work harder to treat each other well and keep the relationship fresh and special. I think people forget that relationships, no matter how good, require work and compromise.

So yes, after a few yrs, some people seem to not want to bother anymore. THey have/had the wrong expectations.

Yup, marriage is like a business partnership. It has it's ups, it has it's downs but you are committed to being together regardless. My wife and I have been married for 21 years so far and divorce isn't an option. We made a commitment "until death do we part" and we're going to keep that commitment no matter what. We were engaged for 4 years before we got married, we knew each other for close to 10 years before we got married, we weren't in any hurry, we knew each other extremely well and both of us are totally committed to making it work, no matter what.

Jerry · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Cephus said:
Yup, marriage is like a business partnership. It has it's ups, it has it's downs but you are committed to being together regardless. My wife and I have been married for 21 years so far and divorce isn't an option. We made a commitment "until death do we part" and we're going to keep that commitment no matter what. We were engaged for 4 years before we got married, we knew each other for close to 10 years before we got married, we weren't in any hurry, we knew each other extremely well and both of us are totally committed to making it work, no matter what.

I remember when I was that naive.

You can't guarantee that she will keep her vow, you can only guarantee that you will keep yours. She can change her mind any second and there's nothing you can do about it.

Marriage is not a commitment. Marriage is an at-will arraignment, as the divorce rate will evidence. Americans have stopped acting 'in good faith' to each-other in all things. As such there's little point in marrying at all and gays will soon find this out.

Cephus · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Jerry said:
I remember when I was that naive.

Dude, you believe in an imaginary sky fairy. :roll:

You can't guarantee that she will keep her vow, you can only guarantee that you will keep yours. She can change her mind any second and there's nothing you can do about it.

Nope, there are no guarantees in life. Welcome to reality. However, if both people are committed to the same goal, that goal can be achieved. Just because you may have had a crappy history picking women doesn't mean everyone does.

Jerry · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Cephus said:
Dude, you believe in an imaginary sky fairy. :roll:

I once believed in my wife, too, guess which one tor our family apart? Employers brake their own rules and then wonder why I ignore their policies on things like no-guns or no-cellphones. Other drivers brake the rules on the road and then crumb when I'm just as if not more than aggressive as they. "Full faith and credit" among Americans is gon.

Cephus said:
Nope, there are no guarantees in life. Welcome to reality. However, if both people are committed to the same goal, that goal can be achieved. Just because you may have had a crappy history picking women doesn't mean everyone does.

The divorce rate shows that I am by no means a token minority.

Michael Johnson · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Jerry said:
I once believed in my wife, too, guess which one tor our family apart? Employers brake their own rules and then wonder why I ignore their policies on things like no-guns or no-cellphones. Other drivers brake the rules on the road and then crumb when I'm just as if not more than aggressive as they. "Full faith and credit" among Americans is gon.

The divorce rate shows that I am by no means a token minority.

Especially when over 70% of divorces are initiated by women.

A modern American woman can literally cash in her marriage when she feels like it, at the detriment of the husband, who will be broke for the next 20 years. Or for the rest of his life.

Cephus · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Jerry said:
The divorce rate shows that I am by no means a token minority.

The fact that lots of people are bad at it in no way disproves my point. :roll:

Michael Johnson · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Cephus said:
The fact that lots of people are bad at it in no way disproves my point. :roll:

Yeah it does because what you're stating is only good on paper, theoretically. It's not realistic at all.

Gathomas88 · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Gina said:
I'm going to remind you again, we have dispensed with Japan as an extreme example

Just because it is an "extreme example" does not mean that the same principles do not still apply.

Dispensed with

Hardly. A growing minority of women are opting out of marriage and motherhood. This is true of the industrialized world in general.

This has resulted in birth rates so low as to be unsustainable, and many men losing sight of their traditional role in society.

I stand by my comment, attrition will take it's toll and those below a certain level will ascend as opportunities present themselves and you are pressing another unnecessary alarm button

You can believe that if you wish, but there is no hard data to suggest it definitely will take place.

Make no mistake here. There is absolutely no scenario in which shrinking and / or aging populations will be a benefit to the industrialized world except but on the most extended and esoteric of long term scales. Frankly, even then, we'd almost certainly be better off if they simply kept right on growing.

All these kinds of changes will result in are shrinking workforces, stagnant GPD, sluggish economic growth, fewer opportunities, higher national overhead in the form of social security and other such "safety nets," and more social stress exacerbating existing societal problems.

A great many experts are already warning of these things.

Population Decline Is Bad For Us

Shrinking Societies: The Other Population Crisis

I take exception to the claim that ALL of the U.S. population growth is the segment you describe as welfare dependent

I said it was coming almost exclusively from lower income demographics which had a strong tendency to be on welfare, not that they were necessarily on welfare.

The birth rate stabilized in 2012

Chart of the Week: Big drop in birth rate may be leveling off | Pew Research Center

A) It has not "stabilized." It's rate of drop has simply slowed. It is still far too low to be sustainable.

B) Numbers continued to drop in 2013.

Birthrate continues to decline in the U.S.

Again, Japan does not apply.

Your source is a right wing blogger, with a Phd., yes, but a regular on Pajamas Television, where her blog is posted. Not exactly a clinically neutral venue.

Japan is an example of exactly the same principles in action. As such, yes, it does apply.

Beyond that, do you deny that the kinds of men being described in this thread exist, and that they are a recent development in our culture?

I'm done reading long articles and blogs. Please cite the relevant passages you need to make your point

Get pregnant at 25 if you want a high-powered career

So look. Here’s my first post directed solely at Generation Z women: Spend the years from age 20-25 focused on getting married. There is no evidence that doing well in school during that period of your life will get you worthwhile benefits. There is no evidence that waiting longer than 25 makes a better marriage. And there is not evidence that women who do a great job early in their career can bank on that later in their career. There is evidence, though, that women who focus on marriage have better marriages. There is evidence that women who have kids earlier have healthier kids, and there is evidence, now, that women who have grown children by age 45 do better at getting to the top in the workforce than all other women with kids

She made reference to the following in doing so.

Why Women Still Can’t Have It All

The most important sequencing issue is when to have children. Many of the top women leaders of the generation just ahead of me—Madeleine Albright, Hillary Clinton, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sandra Day O’Connor, Patricia Wald, Nannerl Keohane—had their children in their 20s and early 30s, as was the norm in the 1950s through the 1970s. A child born when his mother is 25 will finish high school when his mother is 43, an age at which, with full-time immersion in a career, she still has plenty of time and energy for advancement.

There is a clear precedence for this.

"Waiting" often leads women to simply never get married or have children at all.

Frankly, beyond even that, there is the issue that pregnancies later in life tend to be far more dangerous than those in a woman's twenties, and result children which are far less healthy.

Is that really fair?

The number of CEO's of fortune 500 companies: 18. Highest ever.

Why should women follow the same trajectory as men? Proven success.

Many of the most successful women did not follow that trajectory at all.

It is for each woman to decide when or if she becomes a parent. Not society. And their responsibility, if they are disappointed in that choice.

Thank you. That's all we want, is the choice.

Maybe so. Again, however; the simple fact of the matter is that the impacts of this have not been in any sense positive.

Basically all that line of thinking seems to result in on a long term basis are the groups which indulge in it slowly dying off and be replaced by others, who simply happen to follow the more traditional model.

It is essentially equivalent to cultural suicide via out of control materialism.

Gina said:
All that says is women are responsible for the choices men make. If they want to eschew their own roles, that's on them.

Again, it is what it is. Why would you imagine that society needs strong "masculine" men when women have chosen to go it alone instead?

Women said that they wanted to be "equal." As such, more men have started treating them as such, basically by not giving a damn.

You can't have your cake and eat it too in this regard. :shrug:

Not us and since ALL women, nor a significant portion, are not forgoing children altogether, there are plenty out there with whom to propagate. As the chart I provided earlier indicated, researchers believe the birth rate has stabilized.

Too little, too late. Furthermore, the trend towards childlessness is only increasing over time, not decreasing.

You get what you find when you look in those places. If you are looking to screw around, that's what you will find.

Ummm... Are you seriously suggesting going to a bar or club for reasons other than "screwing around?"

Good luck with that.

Gina said:
So because you have chosen to stop trying to date, you feel there is a groundswell of other guys like yourself. Now I see.

No, I believe it is the case because that is what the statistics indicate. More men are dropping out of school, putting off marriage, and failing to achieve professionally than at any other point in the past.

It is an objective fact.

Now, in my case, and in the case of many others, this is purely economic. However, there are a great many men out there who are doing so as a matter of general principle.

It really cannot be denied that this development is taking place in almost direct proportion to the propagation of feminist notions of "women's empowerment."

Having sons in your demographic, my personal experience with them, indicates otherwise.

Good for them. However, your "personal experiences" don't really count for much in this regard.

Cephus · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Michael Johnson said:
Yeah it does because what you're stating is only good on paper, theoretically. It's not realistic at all.

Not only is it good on paper, it works in the real world. I am living proof. So are the vast majority of couples I know, all of whom have gone more than 20 years being married to the same person. Don't fool yourself.

Michael Johnson · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Cephus said:
Not only is it good on paper, it works in the real world. I am living proof. So are the vast majority of couples I know, all of whom have gone more than 20 years being married to the same person. Don't fool yourself.

Anyone can say they know a sh*tload of couples together for decades. That in no way still negates the facts about the risks involved with getting involved with modern American women. Now don't you fool yourself.

Gina · Feb 26, 2014

Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Lursa said:
I'm always amazed at people who seem to depend on bars or clubs to look for mates.

Dont people *do* anything? Have any interests? Go anywhere? And church is still a very valid place to meet people, they have lots of functions and 'friends of friends.' Why dismiss that if it is meaningful to you?

I'd rather meet someone playing frisbee in the park or walking my dog (and have) than sort thru drunk desperate guys in bars. Many women just assume that guys in bars are only looking to get laid, so dont take that very seriously. Or they're just looking for the same

Right on girl! Every word.

For someone who values are traditional, why not church? Politically interested? Get involved with a candidate or party. There are loads of groups representing many varied interests listed in my paper every day. The internet makes it much easier to locate events as well.

If one is truly interested, a marriageable person can be found.

Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

Yes

No

Does not apply to me.

More options

sangha

sangha

Mason66

Glen Contrarian

Jerry

Henrin

Gina

Gina

Gina

Gathomas88

Lursa

Tenacious

Cephus

Lursa

Tenacious

Lursa

Tenacious

Cephus

Jerry

Cephus

Jerry

Michael Johnson

Libturd Destroyer

Cephus

Michael Johnson

Libturd Destroyer

Gathomas88

Cephus

Michael Johnson

Libturd Destroyer

Gina