Michael Dunn retrial verdict predictions

The retrial of Michael Dunn is tentative slated for May of this year. In the first trial he was found guilty on 4 of the 5 charges against him. The jury was deadlocked on whether Dunn was guilty of murder. What's your prediction on the verdict in the Michael Dunn retrial?

I think he'll be found guilty for the following reasons:

- Dunn will likely be completely demoralized and will have nothing to fight for. Guilty on attempted murder has him in jail for life regardless. He might even use the second trial as an opportunity to vent/thumb his nose at his critics/express his disdain for "thugs" especially if he's been victimized in some way by fellow inmates by then.

- In jail with no resources means he'll have a low budget public defender representing him.

- The prosecution has the benefit of a dress rehearsal in the first trial and knows what they likely should focus on plus a lot of input from other legal experts who've appeared on TV saying what they missed.

The jury wasn't deadlocked on whether Dunn was guilty of murder. They were deadlocked over whether he was guilty of 1st degree murder. There's a difference.

From what the two jurors that have come out have said, it appears the state over charged with 1st degree murder and that was what the deadlock in the jury was over given the evidence and the way the law is written.

If the state charges 2nd degree murder, they may get a conviction this time.

The state made the same mistake in the Susan Anthony trial, they overcharged with Murder 1 and didn't prove every requisite element. In this case, depending on how the charges are defined by their statutes, the state will go for M2 or Manslaughter this time.

It's a good thing this case is so clear cut because the defense now knows every single aspect of the state's presentation.

Smeagol said:

The retrial of Michael Dunn is tentative slated for May of this year. In the first trial he was found guilty on 4 of the 5 charges against him. The jury was deadlocked on whether Dunn was guilty of murder. What's your prediction on the verdict in the Michael Dunn retrial?

I think he'll be found guilty for the following reasons:

- Dunn will likely be completely demoralized and will have nothing to fight for. Guilty on attempted murder has him in jail for life regardless. He might even use the second trial as an opportunity to vent/thumb his nose at his critics/express his disdain for "thugs" especially if he's been victimized in some way by fellow inmates by then.

- In jail with no resources means he'll have a low budget public defender representing him.

- The prosecution has the benefit of a dress rehearsal in the first trial and knows what they likely should focus on plus a lot of input from other legal experts who've appeared on TV saying what they missed.

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If they go for 2nd degree murder then I think they will have a guilty verdict.If they over reach and try to go for 1st degree murder then I think it will either be not guilty or another mistrial.



In case anyone is wondering what the different degrees of murder are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States


First-degree murder is any murder that is willful and premeditated. Felony murder is typically first-degree.[6]

Second-degree murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.[7]

Voluntary manslaughter (often incorrectly referred to as third-degree murder), sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[8]

Involuntary manslaughter stems from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional, or negligent, act leading to death. A drunk driving-related death is typically involuntary manslaughter. Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional," because the killer did not intend for a death to result from their intentional actions. If there is a presence of intention it relates only to the intent to cause a violent act which brings about the death, but not an intention to bring about the death itself.[9]

Beaudreaux said:

The jury wasn't deadlocked on whether Dunn was guilty of murder. They were deadlocked over whether he was guilty of 1st degree murder. There's a difference.

From what the two jurors that have come out have said, it appears the state over charged with 1st degree murder and that was what the deadlock in the jury was over given the evidence and the way the law is written.

If the state charges 2nd degree murder, they may get a conviction this time.

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see i have a question about this though

while i hope you are 100% right why didnt they just use thier ability to convict him of M2 or M3(manslaughter) then?
they were allowed to do that

was it a matter of people being sticklers for m1 and refused to drop to M2/M3 (which would be dumb and they should be punched lol)

or was it a matter of somebody actually thought he was innocent, which would be even worse and you would probably find that person to be legally, mentally retarded.

It just makes me curious because i dont understand how they were hung unless somebody thought he was innocent of all murder or sticklers that wouldn't step thier charges down.

I mean they came down on the attempted murder charges and all agreed for attempted M2 a lesser charge why not the murder

The man is in prison for the rest of his life...in my opinion rightly so. Likely, the prosecution will avoid a 1st degree charge, and get a 2nd degree quite easily....the man has pretty much given them all they need.

AGENT J said:

see i have a question about this though

while i hope you are 100% right why didnt they just use thier ability to convict him of M2 or M3(manslaughter) then?
they were allowed to do that

was it a matter of people being sticklers for m1 and refused to drop to M2/M3 (which would be dumb and they should be punched lol)

or was it a matter of somebody actually thought he was innocent, which would be even worse and you would probably find that person to be legally, mentally retarded.

It just makes me curious because i dont understand how they were hung unless somebody thought he was innocent of all murder or sticklers that wouldn't step thier charges down.

I mean they came down on the attempted murder charges and all agreed for attempted M2 a lesser charge why not the murder

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The DA has to ask for and the Judge has to allow "lesser included charges" and from what I've heard, this wasn't done.

If a lesser included was available, I'm sure the jury would have convicted him.

Beaudreaux said:

1.)The DA has to ask for and the Judge has to allow "lesser included charges" and from what I've heard, this wasn't done.

2.)If a lesser included was available, I'm sure the jury would have convicted him.

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1.) no this was definitely done according to the info/links/articles posted in the other Dunn threads they were allowed to come back with M1, M2 and manslaughter. Unless they all had it wrong.

2.) i tend to agree but it didnt happen and while i know they were different charges so its no a blanket the attempted M2 charges were even read and followed by the words "a lesser charge"


but now you have me curious ill have to llok for info saying otherwise because the earlier info definitely said they had the option.

Beaudreaux said:

The jury wasn't deadlocked on whether Dunn was guilty of murder. They were deadlocked over whether he was guilty of 1st degree murder. There's a difference.

From what the two jurors that have come out have said, it appears the state over charged with 1st degree murder and that was what the deadlock in the jury was over given the evidence and the way the law is written.

If the state charges 2nd degree murder, they may get a conviction this time.

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This. I do not understand why the state went for first-degree murder. I think second-degree murder is a slam-dunk conviction.

If they acquit him on 1st-degree and do not convict him on second, then that will be twice that the state of Florida's legal system will have come across as an international embarrassment (yes, international).

Beaudreaux said:

The DA has to ask for and the Judge has to allow "lesser included charges" and from what I've heard, this wasn't done.

If a lesser included was available, I'm sure the jury would have convicted him.

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According to CBS News, lesser charges were included:

Jurors could not agree on a verdict on the first-degree murder charge Dunn faced in the death of Davis, 17. The panel could have also opted to convict Dunn of lesser included offenses, including second-degree murder and manslaughter, in Davis’ death.

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"Loud Music" Murder Case: Did prosecutors "overcharge" Michael Dunn in killing of Florida teen Jordan Davis? - CBS News

If that's true, then I'm thinking two (or was it three) jurists weren't convinced he wasn't telling the truth about thinking that he saw a gun.

Beaudreaux said:

The jury wasn't deadlocked on whether Dunn was guilty of murder. They were deadlocked over whether he was guilty of 1st degree murder. There's a difference.

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Ya, what do jurors 4 and 8 know?

How are they going to find a jury?

Hopefully they will go for 2nd degree murder and be done with this crap.

AGENT J said:

1.) no this was definitely done according to the info/links/articles posted in the other Dunn threads they were allowed to come back with M1, M2 and manslaughter. Unless they all had it wrong.

2.) i tend to agree but it didnt happen and while i know they were different charges so its no a blanket the attempted M2 charges were even read and followed by the words "a lesser charge"


but now you have me curious ill have to llok for info saying otherwise because the earlier info definitely said they had the option.

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I haven't seen everything regarding this case, only certain news stories and both of the juror interviews, so I really don't know as much about this case as you obviously do.

What little bit I know about this case and the fact that I have been a juror on two murder trials that I was the foreman on both (yeah, lucky me), I can understand why the jurors had such a hard time.

The law is very particular as to what each count really means and how the jury must weigh each element of the law. For the average person, it can be very confusing. Arguments among jurors are mostly over what the law says and not whether the person did the act. In other words, in a case like this the jury can want to convict the offender but be held back by the law and/or especially the damned jury instructions from the judge.

In my two experiences, we had educated folks like myself, good ole boys and girls, and on both we had a grandma that, well... bless their hearts, just didn't get any of it.

Second guessing what a jury does is, IMHO, not appropriate for me to do since I've been there and know it's one of the most mentally stressful events one could ever be involved in; a persons life and that of their family is on the line, and you better get it correct.

Phys251 said:

This. I do not understand why the state went for first-degree murder. I think second-degree murder is a slam-dunk conviction.

If they acquit him on 1st-degree and do not convict him on second, then that will be twice that the state of Florida's legal system will have come across as an international embarrassment (yes, international).

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The state charges what they feel they can prove. In this case as well as the other internationally known case (that shall remain unnamed) the State of Florida over reached big time, IMHO.

Beaudreaux said:

I haven't seen everything regarding this case, only certain news stories and both of the juror interviews, so I really don't know as much about this case as you obviously do.

What little bit I know about this case and the fact that I have been a juror on two murder trials that I was the foreman on both (yeah, lucky me), I can understand why the jurors had such a hard time.

The law is very particular as to what each count really means and how the jury must weigh each element of the law. For the average person, it can be very confusing. Arguments among jurors are mostly over what the law says and not whether the person did the act. In other words, in a case like this the jury can want to convict the offender but be held back by the law and/or especially the damned jury instructions from the judge.

In my two experiences, we had educated folks like myself, good ole boys and girls, and on both we had a grandma that, well... bless their hearts, just didn't get any of it.

Second guessing what a jury does is, IMHO, not appropriate for me to do since I've been there and know it's one of the most mentally stressful events one could ever be involved in; a persons life and that of their family is on the line, and you better get it correct.

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I agree with the bolded 100%

ive read and listened to the state and a handful of other law professionals explain how M1 can factually apply in this case but i freely admit i couldnt see the connection that they all made

I do agree they better get it right though

personally though if they were allowed to rule M1, M2 or M3 i honestly dont see how they didnt, this is where my curiosity come in the most. I want to know if a person thought Dunn was innocent, even though there was ZERO corroborating evidence that supports that or if it was sticklers that simply woulnd drop thier higher charges to lesser charges to match others.

i already reconfirmed they could rule on m2 and m3 but im looking now to see if theres any solid answers on what happen

anyway in regards to the thread if the second trail goes anythign like the first i think they will get a murder charge, id guess M2 but ill take manslaughter

M1 imo seems far fetched

MaggieD said:

According to CBS News, lesser charges were included:



"Loud Music" Murder Case: Did prosecutors "overcharge" Michael Dunn in killing of Florida teen Jordan Davis? - CBS News

If that's true, then I'm thinking two (or was it three) jurists weren't convinced he wasn't telling the truth about thinking that he saw a gun.

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That's a problem with jury trials. You get 6 to 12 people that all hear things differently, and when they get back in the jury room have to convince themselves and the others of what they think they heard as evidence. Some people are more apt to believe a police officer's testimony, for example, and others have a hard time believing any thing a cop says. Same thing for witnesses. Some jurors, for whatever reason, will believe certain testimony while others think it was a lie.

Each juror brings their own life experiences as well to the jury room, which also plays a large influence into what they believe and what they will not believe.

In a criminal case, especially a murder case, the term "beyond a reasonable doubt" in my own personal experience with cases like this, plays a HUGE role in the jury deliberations. Each juror makes their case to the other jurors to one level or another, and then makes their own decision as to whether all reasonable doubt has been eliminated.

If not, you get what we had here, a hung jury.

Paleocon said:

Ya, what do jurors 4 and 8 know?

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They know what we don't. What happened in the jury room during deliberations.

They also have a unique perspective on the case that we can never have, since they were not privy to all the discussions that took place on TV and in the court room when they were not allowed to be there. They only knew, at that time, what the judge allowed them to hear and see. Nothing more.

tecoyah said:

The man is in prison for the rest of his life...in my opinion rightly so. Likely, the prosecution will avoid a 1st degree charge, and get a 2nd degree quite easily....the man has pretty much given them all they need.

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There's a bigger concern that simply putting Dunn away for life. A strong message needs to be sent to irresponsible gun users that makes it clear that if you feel confident to instigate conflict because you have a loaded gun in your posssion, then things escalate and you react by being trigger happy, the law is not on your side.

Beaudreaux said:

The DA has to ask for and the Judge has to allow "lesser included charges" and from what I've heard, this wasn't done.

If a lesser included was available, I'm sure the jury would have convicted him.

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From what I understand the jury did have a choice between muder-1, murder-2 or manslaughter.

AGENT J said:

I agree with the bolded 100%

ive read and listened to the state and a handful of other law professionals explain how M1 can factually apply in this case but i freely admit i couldnt see the connection that they all made

I do agree they better get it right though

personally though if they were allowed to rule M1, M2 or M3 i honestly dont see how they didnt, this is where my curiosity come in the most. I want to know if a person thought Dunn was innocent, even though there was ZERO corroborating evidence that supports that or if it was sticklers that simply woulnd drop thier higher charges to lesser charges to match others.

i already reconfirmed they could rule on m2 and m3 but im looking now to see if theres any solid answers on what happen

anyway in regards to the thread if the second trail goes anythign like the first i think they will get a murder charge, id guess M2 but ill take manslaughter

M1 imo seems far fetched

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From what little I know, I can't see how he isn't guilty of at least manslaughter and potentially M2.

The guy lost his temper (which is at the very least an understatement), and acted totally unacceptable to our societal norms, which is exactly why we have laws in the first place; to punish those that act in an unacceptable way to our society.

Smeagol said:

From what I understand the jury did have a choice between muder-1, murder-2 or manslaughter.

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AgentJ let me know that. I only know that the latest juror to come forward, stated that they argued over whether he was guilty of M1 or not.

Maybe that means that they deadlocked over M1 or M2 or something similar, and not whether he was guilty; rather what he was actually guilty of.

Smeagol said:

From what I understand the jury did have a choice between muder-1, murder-2 or manslaughter.

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3 jurors actually bought his story.

Every action that he took (or didn't take) that we have evidence for shows that he was just trying to save his skin.

Beaudreaux said:

From what little I know, I can't see how he isn't guilty of at least manslaughter and potentially M2.

The guy lost his temper (which is at the very least an understatement), and acted totally unacceptable to our societal norms, which is exactly why we have laws in the first place; to punish those that act in an unacceptable way to our society.

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agreed
i watched every minute of the trial and read all the evidence also and additional character stuff

what does it for me is that there was ZERO corroborated evidence of a gun or threats, ZERO
he also never told his own girlfriend about a gun and never mentioned it to the police until the second discussion

he left the scene, drove to this hotel, walked his dog, called and ordered pizza, watched a movie and went to sleep. In the morning he saw on the news he killed a kid, he packed and drove 2.5 hours home and never called police.


this is just teo of the biggest things, on the stand (which i cant believe he took) he was proven to be a liar and his credibility was shot to hell

Smeagol said:

There's a bigger concern that simply putting Dunn away for life. A strong message needs to be sent to irresponsible gun users that makes it clear that if you feel confident to instigate conflict because you have a loaded gun in your posssion, then things escalate and you react by being trigger happy, the law is not on your side.

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Exactly.

And frankly, if one does use a weapon in such a manner, there should be something written into the law that it is only applicable if you report it immediately . A reasonable person would anyway. It would allow for immediate collection and retrieval of corroborating evidence and witness statements.

AGENT J said:

agreed
i watched every minute of the trial and read all the evidence also and additional character stuff

what does it for me is that there was ZERO corroborated evidence of a gun or threats, ZERO
he also never told his own girlfriend about a gun and never mentioned it to the police until the second discussion

he left the scene, drove to this hotel, walked his dog, called and ordered pizza, watched a movie and went to sleep. In the morning he saw on the news he killed a kid, he packed and drove 2.5 hours home and never called police.


this is just teo of the biggest things, on the stand (which i cant believe he took) he was proven to be a liar and his credibility was shot to hell

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Evil comes in many forms. This particular evil apparition will be off the streets for a long time, even with just the current guilty verdicts. Maybe we can get him off the streets permanently with the next trial.