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Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

Should German WWII vets still be arrested?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 22.1%

  • No

    Votes: 29 42.6%

  • It depends

    Votes: 24 35.3%
  • Total voters
    68
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Still, it seems to me, something about compassion and indifference can be learned by looking closer to home. We know that almost no one in the United States protested when Japanese-Americans were rounded up during World War II. And while it is important to stress that the treatment of the Japanese-Americans was in no way comparable to the treatment of the German Jews, a small thought experiment does not seem out of order here. What if word had begun seeping back that Japanese-American children were being murdered in the internment camps? How many of the good people of California would have taken time out from their busy and war-burdened lives to register a protest, or even to learn the facts of the matter? Some, to be sure, and undoubtedly a great many more than the number of Germans who worried about the fate of the Jews. A democratic ethos does make a difference. But can anyone say with confidence that a significant portion of the public would have behaved compassionately? I for one would not bet the ranch on the kindness of strangers.
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Hitler's Silent Partners
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:
5th refusal for a link.

You claimed to have a link, I called you on it, you refused to provide the link. I think it's pretty obvious that you're a liar.
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I have posted links. You have never backed up anything you claim in defense of and justifications for the death camp German SS.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

OscarB63 said:
you have to remember that this was the 1940s. unless they lived in a big city, access to newspapers and media was very limited. Hell, half my neighbors could disappear overnight and I wouldn't notice.
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There was incessant propaganda by radio, newspapers, posters, movies and every form of media.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

OscarB63 said:
I would imagine, that unless they were involved with the military or they lived in close proximity to one of the camps, the average german civilian knew little about the holocaust at the time.
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This does not make any sense and has been disproven. The core of the German politics and culture had become built around hatred of Jews, this was promoted and advertised in every form, and was even element of the holocaust other than the actual means they were killed by.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:
I have posted links. You have never backed up anything you claim in defense of and justifications for the death camp German SS.
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6th refusal to post the link. You're either ridiculously lazy or you made it up. Maybe even both.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:
This does not make any sense and has been disproven. The core of the German politics and culture had become built around hatred of Jews, this was promoted and advertised in every form, and was even element of the holocaust other than the actual means they were killed by.
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Yes, Hitler made it very obvious that it was the evil Jews who were creating most of the problems in the German culture and that created an environment of tolerance within the German culture for the persecution of Jews. Our own culture does not easily tolerate physical persecution--though some would suggest that it is happening anyway--but Obama and his ilk are quick to blame Tea Partiers, and the evil rich, and guns and Bibles, conservative talk shows and media etc. for the problems in our own society, and that helps create, with some, a culture of contempt for such groups or personalities. (And yes, those on the right tend to demonize aspects of the left also.)

But whatever created the climate of persecution of the Jews in Germany ended almost 70 years ago. That means that the youngest of the three individual mentioned in the OP would have been 17 years old and the oldest 25 years old when the war ended. Without substantial proof that these individuals willingly and maliciously participated in the torture, murder, and other mistreatment of the Jews, I simply can find no justification for prosecuting them now.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:
No, what you don't seem to understand is that they don't have any evidence that these people did anything wrong at all. They're trying them solely because they were stationed in Ausschwitz. That'd be like you getting stationed at Ft. Bragg, then some group of soldiers at Ft. Bragg murder a bunch of people. Then 60 years later, poof, the government calls you up and tries you for being an accomplice to murder simply because you were also stationed in the same place. That's insanely ridiculous.

From the article:


And by the way, insubordination in the German military was met with a bullet to the head. So that means if you get stationed at Auschwitz you either die or get charged with murder, there is no 3rd option. That's irrational.

I have this crazy notion that people should be tried for their actions, not their inactions.

Also from this link: Auschwitz concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- There were 7,000 German soldiers stationed in Auschwitz.
- Only about 120 of which operated the gas chambers.

So all 7,000 of those soldiers stationed there, the cooks, medics, paperwork clerks, etc. etc., all deserve to be brought up on murder charges?
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Yeah you provided a link. And after reading that link I say all the cooks, secretaries, medics, paperwork clerks, etc should be brought up on accessory to murder charges.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Slyhunter said:
Yeah you provided a link. And after reading that link I say all the cooks, secretaries, medics, paperwork clerks, etc should be brought up on accessory to murder charges.
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So all of those cooks, secretaries, medics and paperwork clerks should have just put a bullet in their brains when they got stationed there? That's the only way they could've avoided murder charges in your world?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:
So all of those cooks, secretaries, medics and paperwork clerks should have just put a bullet in their brains when they got stationed there? That's the only way they could've avoided murder charges in your world?
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They should've fomented rebellion.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Moderator's Warning:
Alright darlings. Things are getting pretty heated in here. Let's chill out a bit, leave out the personal comments and please discuss the topic.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

AlbqOwl said:
Yes, Hitler made it very obvious that it was the evil Jews who were creating most of the problems in the German culture and that created an environment of tolerance within the German culture for the persecution of Jews. Our own culture does not easily tolerate physical persecution--though some would suggest that it is happening anyway--but Obama and his ilk are quick to blame Tea Partiers, and the evil rich, and guns and Bibles, conservative talk shows and media etc. for the problems in our own society, and that helps create, with some, a culture of contempt for such groups or personalities. (And yes, those on the right tend to demonize aspects of the left also.)

But whatever created the climate of persecution of the Jews in Germany ended almost 70 years ago. That means that the youngest of the three individual mentioned in the OP would have been 17 years old and the oldest 25 years old when the war ended. Without substantial proof that these individuals willingly and maliciously participated in the torture, murder, and other mistreatment of the Jews, I simply can find no justification for prosecuting them now.
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I can understand how some would agree with you that merely being the staff that murdered 1,100,000 Jews at that camp was no big deal, particularly if they were youths of only 17 to 25 years old. Boys will be boys and it's not like they were killing humans. They were killing subhumans and I'm certain any statute of limitations would have run on animal abuse charges anyway.

Besides, they didn't know what was going on and didn't participate, like the slave owners of the South's white over-seered never knew the African-Americans were slaves.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:
6th refusal to post the link. You're either ridiculously lazy or you made it up. Maybe even both.
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What link? I have posted links and this is your 6th message singularly now to try to derail the topic and avoid your prior messages and my responses. The link you posted is on your theory that any and every person can participate in any murder and get away with it if it can not be proven you were the one who pulled the trigger. 10 people could go into a school, kill 200 children, and in your view not one of the could be prosecuted unless you could provide which of them pulled the triggers.

In your view you have the perfect way for everyone to get away with murder. There just needs to be 2 of them. Then they can kill anyone and everyone unless it can be proven which of the 2 pulled the trigger - even if they went there to kill people and that proven.
 
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Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:
So all of those cooks, secretaries, medics and paperwork clerks should have just put a bullet in their brains when they got stationed there? That's the only way they could've avoided murder charges in your world?
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Nothing you post is true. The German SS at the camps were not cooks, secretaries, medics or clerks. No one was forced to join the SS and no one was forced to serve at a concentration camp.

POST THE LINK THAT THE GERMAN ACCUSED CLAIMS HE WAS A COOK, SECRETARY, MEDIC OR CLERK.

 
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Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Slyhunter said:
They should've fomented rebellion.
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So on a base run by die hard fanatics, where even talking about rebellion would get you shot, they should've secretly figured out who else would be down for a rebellion, then organized a resistance and stopped the holocaust?

Man, you're really reaching if you want to charge people with accessory to murder just because they didn't form a rebellion.


joko104 said:
Nothing you post is true. The German SS at the camps were not cooks, secretaries, medics or clerks. No one was forced to join the SS and no one was forced to serve at a concentration camp.

POST THE LINK THAT THE GERMAN ACCUSED CLAIMS HE WAS A COOK, SECRETARY, MEDIC OR CLERK.

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joko104 said:
What link? I have posted links and this is your 6th message singularly now to try to derail the topic and avoid your prior messages and my responses. The link you posted is on your theory that any and every person can participate in any murder and get away with it if it can not be proven you were the one who pulled the trigger. 10 people could go into a school, kill 200 children, and in your view not one of the could be prosecuted unless you could provide which of them pulled the triggers.

In your view you have the perfect way for everyone to get away with murder. There just needs to be 2 of them. Then they can kill anyone and everyone unless it can be proven which of the 2 pulled the trigger - even if they went there to kill people and that proven.
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Ok, if you're not going to post the link showing German soldiers could get voluntarily restationed at will, then I have to assume you made it up.

I will not reply to another post unless you post the link. You've wasted far too much of my time with this nonsense.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Slyhunter said:
Yeah you provided a link. And after reading that link I say all the cooks, secretaries, medics, paperwork clerks, etc should be brought up on accessory to murder charges.
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Reading the link he provided - for which he claims only the 120 who worked the gas chambers should be prosecuted - shows the extreme level of sadism he is defending.

He is claiming that Josef Mengele, the doctor who did the medical experiments committed no crime. He did not operate gas chambers so what he did was perfectly accept to him.

he is claiming that Kurt Heissmeyer, who did experiments on 20 children and then hung the committed no crime. He did not operate gas chambers so that also is perfectly acceptable.

He is just fine with Jews, Catholics, homosexuals, and everyone tortured, beaten to death, shot, starved, tormented - they are innocent of anything. Unless they operated a gas chamber personally? Hell, they could do anything but that.

THAT is his incessant claim and provided the link proving that is his view. The defense and justification any and ever form of sadism. It would appear his ONLY objection was against those who relatively humanely exterminated people by gassing them. That is the only thing unacceptable to him. Quickly killing them. Everything else just fine to him, by his own link he cited and what he claims it proves. He has now posted now many times. That only those who operated gas chambers should be prosecuted - maybe prosecuted anyway.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:
So on a base run by die hard fanatics, where even talking about rebellion would get you shot, they should've secretly figured out who else would be down for a rebellion, then organized a resistance and stopped the holocaust?

Man, you're really reaching if you want to charge people with accessory to murder just because they didn't form a rebellion.







Ok, if you're not going to post the link showing German soldiers could get voluntarily restationed at will, then I have to assume you made it up.

I will not reply to another post unless you post the link. You've wasted far too much of my time with this nonsense.
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I have done so. And I have done more than that. I have proven that NO GERMAN - military or civilian - was ever retaliated against for refusing to do ANYTHING against Jews.

You have yet to post anything to prove your claim that SS officers were forced to serve at concentrations camps. NOTHING.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Also from RA's link from which he claims only the 120 who operated the gas chamber committed any crime:

At least 802 prisoners attempted to escape from the Auschwitz camps, mostly Polish or Soviet prisoners fleeing from work sites outside the camp.[176] 144 were successful. The fates of 331 of the escapees are unknown.[177] A common punishment for escape attempts was death by starvation; the families of successful escapees were sometimes arrested and interned in Auschwitz and prominently displayed to deter others. If someone did manage to escape, the SS picked ten people at random from the prisoner's block and starve them to death.[178]

Because they starved people do death rather than gassing them, that another completely acceptable way to kill people.

Rounding up people and sending them to the gas chambers also was innocent actions.
 
Also from his link he claims establishes only the 120 who operated gas chambers and therefore committed no crime:


On January 17, 58,000 Auschwitz detainees were evacuated under guard, largely on foot; thousands of them died in the subsequent death march west towards Wodzisław Śląski.

This also perfectly acceptable. So, for example, the Japanese in the death march committed no offenses nor at the camp. It had no gas chamber and the Japanese didn't gas anyone along the way or there. Anyone can be murdered PROVIDED 1.) they are not murdered quickly and 2.) it cannot be prove you were the exact person who did the very last act of murder.

Anything else, torture, beating, starving, rape, medical experiments - that of course is entirely allowed to anyone.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:
I can understand how some would agree with you that merely being the staff that murdered 1,100,000 Jews at that camp was no big deal, particularly if they were youths of only 17 to 25 years old. Boys will be boys and it's not like they were killing humans. They were killing subhumans and I'm certain any statute of limitations would have run on animal abuse charges anyway.

Besides, they didn't know what was going on and didn't participate, like the slave owners of the South's white over-seered never knew the African-Americans were slaves.
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how about the poor white guys who worked for the slave owner? are they just as guilty as the slave owner?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:
I have done so. And I have done more than that. I have proven that NO GERMAN - military or civilian - was ever retaliated against for refusing to do ANYTHING against Jews. .
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where have you proven this? I haven't seen a link
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

OscarB63 said:
where have you proven this? I haven't seen a link
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I even quoted it. Who has proven NOTHING are those of you claiming they didn't know, were forced there. Couldn't leave. The burden of proof is on YOU to make your claim.

If you are part of a bank robbery team, you committed murder if someone murdered in the robbery. It is not the job of the government to prove you were forced to be there against your will and really didn't want to be in the robbery gang. If you made such a claim the proof would be on you.

He was not an employee. He was SS.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Wiggen said:
Oh come on. If I'm gibbering its only because I pointed out your anti-Semitic post to you. It's hard to remain totally coherent when discussing issues like this with people who have -uh - hangups - about Jews. You're the one who talked about televised lynchings in Tel Aviv and then played innocent. Own it.
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Own what? Had I mentioned lynching with respect to any other nation, you'd take no issue with it.

It's pretty weak that you'd level such an accusation, being that 1) there was no antisemitism and 2) that you'd claim to believe there was. Victim cards are tragic. Especially where they're utilised in order to compensate for lack of substance. But as I said, you're sub-par, so I'm hardly disappointed. In a politics-intensive real life setting, you'd be universally ignored.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

APACHERAT said:
Except for the U.S. Marines in the Pacific. They didn't take prisoners during battle. But neither did the Japanese.
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Anyone who committed war crimes should be punished.

Anyone who ordered war crimes should be punished.

Anyone who knew or reasonably should have known that his subordinates were carrying out war crimes and who failed to stop them should be punished.

No excuses. No exceptions.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
Anyone who committed war crimes should be punished.

Anyone who ordered war crimes should be punished.

Anyone who knew or reasonably should have known that his subordinates were carrying out war crimes and who failed to stop them should be punished.

No excuses. No exceptions.
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In the real world, during war it's usually only the losing side that is held responsiable for their crimes.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

APACHERAT said:
In the real world, during war it's usually only the losing side that is held responsiable for their crimes.
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Of course. I'm speaking in terms of what should be, not what is.
 
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