Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I'd have to agree with previous posters. That is the use of putting old, old men in prison and / or to death?

At some point in time isn't it just better to 'let go' of this?

No, I'm not condoning their acts, or the acts of the Reich. I'm just saying isn't there a statute of limitations for most any other crimes? Why not this also?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Arrested ?
And to what end ?
I think that most of the Germans know that the wrong thing was done...
Arrest ??- prosecute ?? any one ...yes
Hitler and company
Nazism.......impossible.....and we have this disease as well....
Knowledge is the answer.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

eohrnberger said:

I'd have to agree with previous posters. That is the use of putting old, old men in prison and / or to death?

At some point in time isn't it just better to 'let go' of this?

No, I'm not condoning their acts, or the acts of the Reich. I'm just saying isn't there a statute of limitations for most any other crimes? Why not this also?

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Because murder doesn't have a statute of limitations.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

The worse of this is, we now face the same situations with North Korea. Do we blame the system or the soldier?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joG said:

In the case of Yugoslawia I have not followed the aftermath closely enough to know how it has been handled. My impression has been that it was spotty, but I don't know.
In Germany, on the other hand, I followed it relatively closely. As I have related in another thread the handling of criminals from the Nazi period was rather unenthusiastic at best. There were prosecutions. But usually there were none and the involvement of individuals and organizations were treated discreetly and mention of such involvement was severely discouraged as long as the people were in place whose carriers were thanks to Gehlen's and Filbinger's generation. This went as far as refusing repatriation of Nazi documents impounded and removed after the war. Soldiers, politicians, judges, police, spys or mds kept their jobs and extended their careers. The father of a friend had run one of the main extermination hospitals for the handicapped during the execution of that program. He ran it after the war and prospered until his retirement.

Of course there can be no simple answer to what to do, when practically the whole population and elite were involved or so close to heinous crime. What for instance do you do, when every large company used slaves that had to be regularly replaced after having used them up and exterminated. The police had helped herd the Jews to the cattle cars and the judges and mayors had hanged people for having had sex with slaves or feeding vagrant Jews. What do you do?

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But a Chancelor has to go to a specific place annually and ask forgiveness in behalf of their people for what was done to the Jews. Then I hear damage compensation has been by most part covered from the Deutch towards the Jews.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

DDD said:

But a Chancelor has to go to a specific place annually and ask forgiveness in behalf of their people for what was done to the Jews. Then I hear damage compensation has been by most part covered from the Deutch towards the Jews.

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After waiting till most of the surviving slaves had died of old age and under the stipulation, that the payments could only be made to the survivor and was forfeit, if he was dead, how high do you think the compensation was that Germany was willing to pay each slave?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joG said:

After waiting till most of the surviving slaves had died of old age and under the stipulation, that the payments could only be made to the survivor and was forfeit, if he was dead, how high do you think the compensation was that Germany was willing to pay each slave?

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I do not know, but I am genuinely interested?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I have been going over this situation a lot. I can see one solution I would be comfortable with...

The system to inspire such acts obviously gets the most blame.

The soldiers and individuals themselves, I think should be psychologically evaluated to see if they should be prosecuted or not. Lie detector maybe? I kept thinking about the documentary about Shin Dong-Hyuk in North Korea. They interviewed two different guards that had worked at the camps. One you could tell couldn't help but feel utter remorse for his actions when he thought about it. The other couldn't help but smile when he thought about it. If they show they seek power at the cost of human rites, even after escaping its throws, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

NoC_T said:

I've read that Mossad still keeps open files on fugitive Nazis. Dunno if it's true or not.

I'm conflicted here. I do know that if Hitler himself had escaped and was found hiding out in the Amazon or whatever, his age wouldn't matter to the majority. He'd be extradited and lynched in Tel Aviv. Probably on live TV.

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He would not be 'lynched'. He would be tried and executed. There is a difference, although I understand when some of you folks talk about Israel you can't keep the pejorative terms out of the discussion.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Wiggen said:

He would not be 'lynched'. He would be tried and executed. There is a difference, although I understand when some of you folks talk about Israel you can't keep the pejorative terms out of the discussion.

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Just as I understand why any mention of Israel is akin to pulling an emotional hair-trigger.

But okay. Dangled by the necky-necky in a gently playful manner. How's that?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:

It's not an exaggeration, it is verbatim what is happening. If you had read the article or anything anyone has written here, you'd know that they will convict them of murder regardless of whether they're guilty of anything. Simply being stationed at Auschwitz makes you guilty.



Who are you going to report it to? The fuehrer? So all 7,000 of the people stationed at Auschwitz the military base deserve to be tried of murder because they got orders to go there. Of those 7,000, only 120 were assigned to the gas chambers. But I suspect you don't give a ****. **** them they're Germans right? Who cares if they're actually guilty of anything.



Since you're back and calling the straw men you invented cowards, I'll step back in as well. Almost everyone here believes that people that have committed war crimes should be charged with those war crimes. However, you, and the German government, have taken it a step further, and decided to charge people with war crimes for being stationed at a base with war criminals.

For some reason you don't give a flying rat's ass whether they actually had anything at all to do with the murders, you only seem to care that if they were one of the 7,000 soldiers at Auschwitz during the 1940's, then **** them. As long as we're talking about cowardice, convicting potentially innocent men of murder with no regard to facts is the epitome of cowardice.

Tell me, what exactly is the difference between a German soldier at Auschwitz and a prisoner? Both were taken from their homes by the German government, against their will, and sent to Auschwitz. If you think that alone is enough to be charged with so serious of a crime, you're hardly better than the Nazis.

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Well, if your fantasy tale was true you'd have a point. But, in fact, NONE had to be there. Many did refuse and none were ever court martialed - nor could be. NOR was it ordinary German troops sent there. They tried at first and it didn't work.

The absurd claim? Your's. That there was no difference between a German guard at Auschwitz and a Jew at Auschwitz. That is truly as absurd as it gets.

I have not claimed any German soldier there should be convicted of murder. I have said any should be tried unless they were there a very short time, as none had to stay there. None. Not one. There were not passive guards. All knew exactly what was happening. All were part of the machinery of it. None had to be. Any could have left. They could not be court martialed. None ever were. That was a real shocker at the Nuremberg trial and other war crimes trials. Many Germans did refuse. If so, they were merely transferred elsewhere. They could not be court martialed because the official stance of the German government and military was that it wasn't happening.

Ironically, unlike now in the USA, there were no such secret trials, secret imprisonments or that. Many Germans refused. Others participated but then committed suicide - why they shifted to gassing.

But, you claiming there was basically no difference between a German soldier at Auschwitz and a Jewish family members who were tortured, starved, and murdered - shows you have absolutely no intention to have a legitimate or anything poor-SS-Death-Guard members as the real victims of Auschwitz. VERY SICKO messages you are posting.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Those crying for the mass murders keep telling the same lie.

No German soldier had to be at the death camps. All could opt out.

In fact, some did when they first used ordinary German soldiers. Others went along, but committed suicide then unable to handle shooting children, women and old people. It rapidly shifted to only SS and those who wanted to be there - often so brutal even it went beyond anything Himmler authorized or would allow. The death camps, for the first couple of years were to be slave labor camps, not for total genocide. Not only at those camps, but across the entirety of actions against Jews the SS and many other Germans went even beyond anything tolerable to the anti-Jew purge. It was not a problem finding German soldiers willing to do so. They had volunteers and waiting lists.

Jews were not human. They could be tormented, tortured, raped, murdered at will. Legal unlimited sadism enhanced by mass propaganda. There were no "I hate being and want out" among German soldiers at death camps. Not one had to be there. They wanted to be there.

There are NO examples of any German soldier being court martials for wishing to leave. There is piles of evidence those there were there specifically because they volunteered and wanted to be there. There are NO recounts of any mercy, any hesitation, and limitation of brutality by any German soldier - ever.

The apologists and defenders of those who did unthinkable mass torture, starvation and murder lie. Incessantly. Absurdly - such as claiming really the Germans doing it were as much victims as the millions not just killed, but first tormented and tortured in every way.

FACT: No German was forced to be in the SS anymore than no soldier in the US Army was forced to be a Green Beret.
FACT: No German soldier or officer at any of the death camps had to be there against his wishes.
FACT: No German soldier or officer could be court martialed for refusing to serve at a death camp.
FACT: German officers and soldiers were there because they volunteered to and wanted to be there.
FACT: No German officer or soldier there was a non-participant in the atrocities.

This is the stance of the defenders of Himmler - though actually they often were so horrific they went beyond even what Himmler would allow:

They could join the KKK. The could volunteer to go along on a lynching. They could stand lookout and guard during the lynching. They could bring the rope. Make the knot. But since they didn't actually didn't hoist the black man up with the rope those KKKers are innocent and RabidA claims are as much a victim as all those murdered because they weren't the actual person who hoisted him up with the rope or did the rapes, torturing and murder.

They were all SS who volunteered to be and wanted to be there. All were participants and wanted to be.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Here is a revealing piece on how the psychology of sadism and particularly against Jews evolved and what it evolved to. It was the true sadist paradise for which the problem was not finding men willing to do so.

http://www.yadvashem.org/download/about_holocaust/studies/aly_full.pdf

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Robbie Loucks said:

Yes, I think so. It's not going to help society at all by placing these people in jail for something they hardly remember doing. If they are still leading fruitful lives after all these years, why take that away?

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To make it known that if any way possible the person isn't going to be allowed to go unpunished. I torture, starve, beat to death, rape, murder 1,000 children and women. I slam babies heads against a wall, enjoying the mother's scream. I kill everyone I can. But as long as I can hide from it long enough, then its forgive and forget because for decades I had a great life? And that is the lesson to everyone. Yes, you can do such things and have a wonderful life.

Couldn't possibly disagree more.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

eohrnberger said:

I'd have to agree with previous posters. That is the use of putting old, old men in prison and / or to death?

At some point in time isn't it just better to 'let go' of this?

No, I'm not condoning their acts, or the acts of the Reich. I'm just saying isn't there a statute of limitations for most any other crimes? Why not this also?

Click to expand...

That is exactly what you are saying. You are saying that, in the final analysis, the holocaust was nothing at all. Just shrug your shoulders, say "oh well, what's done is done" and erase it.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Some on this thread really should express their obviously "job well done!" to those Germans who "innocently" participated in eradicating Jews from Western and Eastern Europe. They did succeed. The few surviving Jews never returned. The largest Jewish populations in the world was in Poland and the greatest regional Jewish population in Eastern Europe and Germany. They were eradicated, permanently. There are no Jewish populations of any size there, nor ever will be.

So rather than just saying "forgive the murders and forget the victims," why not just be honest about it and express your congratulations for a job well done?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Besides, if that old German death camp soldier is tried and hung, no one would be to blame or had done anything wrong. Everyone involved in his hanging had just done their job.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

You people who condemn the ones who followed orders, condemned the ones who let it happened, condemned the ones who stood by doing nothing are still ignoring the fact that we are all ignoring the fact that it's happening again in North Korea.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:

Well, if your fantasy tale was true you'd have a point. But, in fact, NONE had to be there. Many did refuse and none were ever court martialed - nor could be. NOR was it ordinary German troops sent there. They tried at first and it didn't work.

The absurd claim? Your's. That there was no difference between a German guard at Auschwitz and a Jew at Auschwitz. That is truly as absurd as it gets.

I have not claimed any German soldier there should be convicted of murder. I have said any should be tried unless they were there a very short time, as none had to stay there. None. Not one. There were not passive guards. All knew exactly what was happening. All were part of the machinery of it. None had to be. Any could have left. They could not be court martialed. None ever were. That was a real shocker at the Nuremberg trial and other war crimes trials. Many Germans did refuse. If so, they were merely transferred elsewhere. They could not be court martialed because the official stance of the German government and military was that it wasn't happening.

Ironically, unlike now in the USA, there were no such secret trials, secret imprisonments or that. Many Germans refused. Others participated but then committed suicide - why they shifted to gassing.

But, you claiming there was basically no difference between a German soldier at Auschwitz and a Jewish family members who were tortured, starved, and murdered - shows you have absolutely no intention to have a legitimate or anything poor-SS-Death-Guard members as the real victims of Auschwitz. VERY SICKO messages you are posting.

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joko104 said:

Some on this thread really should express their obviously "job well done!" to those Germans who "innocently" participated in eradicating Jews from Western and Eastern Europe. They did succeed. The few surviving Jews never returned. The largest Jewish populations in the world was in Poland and the greatest regional Jewish population in Eastern Europe and Germany. They were eradicated, permanently. There are no Jewish populations of any size there, nor ever will be.

So rather than just saying "forgive the murders and forget the victims," why not just be honest about it and express your congratulations for a job well done?

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This is pretty much on par with the false, straw man garbage you're usually pushing. I never once claimed that anyone who was actually guilty shouldn't be tried, I've claimed that what was happening in the OP was wrong, which is convicting them whether they're guilty or not, just because they were stationed there. The fact that you can't recognize the difference is appalling. I guess it's easier to attack what I didn't say than it is to attack what I did say.

Second, you have provided ZERO proof that every single soldier could've left at any point he wanted. The burden of proof is on YOU, because that is contrary to every military in the world. If somebody else committed genocide at Ft. Bragg while I was stationed there, do you know how much responsibility I would've had in that? ZERO. But sure as **** you would've wanted me on trial, huh?

And what I stated, for those who were innocent, there is very little difference between:

- Being a Jew > being forced by the German government to go to Auschwitz > Be imprisoned until you are dead or liberated. and
- Being a German citizen > being forced by the German government to go to Auschwitz > Be imprisoned until you get yourself killed or are charged with murder.

Sorry buddy, convicting people just for being stationed somewhere is wrong, and no amount of you lying or beating your chest is going to change that. There were 7,000 soldiers stationed there, only 120 of which were assigned to the gas chambers. But to you they're all equally guilty.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:

Some on this thread really should express their obviously "job well done!" to those Germans who "innocently" participated in eradicating Jews from Western and Eastern Europe. They did succeed. The few surviving Jews never returned. The largest Jewish populations in the world was in Poland and the greatest regional Jewish population in Eastern Europe and Germany. They were eradicated, permanently. There are no Jewish populations of any size there, nor ever will be.

So rather than just saying "forgive the murders and forget the victims," why not just be honest about it and express your congratulations for a job well done?

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Nobody here feels that the Germans did a "good job". Most Germans today have nothing to do with the Holocaust. And even at the time of the Holocaust most Germans did not know of the horrors that the SS and the Nazi's were perpetrating on the Jews.

The Germans cannot undo what happened in the second world war and the Germans will never forget what happened in the second world war. And forgiveness? Nobody will ever forgive the Nazi's or people who still have the same ideology, but for the rest of the Germans, most have not done anything they need forgiveness for IMHO.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

RabidAlpaca said:

This is pretty much on par with the false, straw man garbage you're usually pushing. I never once claimed that anyone who was actually guilty shouldn't be tried, I've claimed that what was happening in the OP was wrong, which is convicting them whether they're guilty or not, just because they were stationed there. The fact that you can't recognize the difference is appalling. I guess it's easier to attack what I didn't say than it is to attack what I did say.

Second, you have provided ZERO proof that every single soldier could've left at any point he wanted. The burden of proof is on YOU, because that is contrary to every military in the world. If somebody else committed genocide at Ft. Bragg while I was stationed there, do you know how much responsibility I would've had in that? ZERO. But sure as **** you would've wanted me on trial, huh?

And what I stated, for those who were innocent, there is very little difference between:

- Being a Jew > being forced by the German government to go to Auschwitz > Be imprisoned until you are dead or liberated. and
- Being a German citizen > being forced by the German government to go to Auschwitz > Be imprisoned until you get yourself killed or are charged with murder.

Sorry buddy, convicting people just for being stationed somewhere is wrong, and no amount of you lying or beating your chest is going to change that. There were 7,000 soldiers stationed there, only 120 of which were assigned to the gas chambers. But to you they're all equally guilty.

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Lying is never persuasive. I never posted they are all equally guilty.

Your claiming there not difference between German "citizen" set there (now you claim they were not even soldiers) and the people tortured and killed there were equally victims is sadistic and such a lie you have made it clear you are messages are holocaust apologistic, if not outright denier or supporting it.


Your most sick and lying message now? To compare Fort Bragg to Auschwitz. That is as dishonest and absurd as it gets.

But yes, if Fort Bragg was a center where over 1,000,000 blacks were starved, tortured, and mass murdered and you were stationed there and "just did your job" knowing this occurring? You should be prosecuted.

The world most make it known this level of genocide is intolerable, inexcusable, will always be punished and "just doing my job" or "following orders" is not acceptable.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Peter King said:

Nobody here feels that the Germans did a "good job". Most Germans today have nothing to do with the Holocaust. And even at the time of the Holocaust most Germans did not know of the horrors that the SS and the Nazi's were perpetrating on the Jews.

The Germans cannot undo what happened in the second world war and the Germans will never forget what happened in the second world war. And forgiveness? Nobody will ever forgive the Nazi's or people who still have the same ideology, but for the rest of the Germans, most have not done anything they need forgiveness for IMHO.

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That's a lie because the holocaust did not just happen in death camps. It happened in the streets in front of them. They saw what was done to Jews in their neighbors and in the streets and their businesses. The majority supported it. As for the specific message you responded to - the eradication of Jews from German? 100% of Germans saw and knew. You apologistic view would be no different than to claim white people in the South in the early 1900s didn't know how blacks were treated or prior to the Civil War didn't know how slaves were treated.

The holocaust did not just happen in death camps. The genocide did not just happen in death camps. Jews were murdered, individually, in dozens, in hundreds and more in the streets.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Slyhunter said:

You people who condemn the ones who followed orders, condemned the ones who let it happened, condemned the ones who stood by doing nothing are still ignoring the fact that we are all ignoring the fact that it's happening again in North Korea.

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The world allowing this wrong. It does not reach the level of extinction machinery of an entire ethnical group, but it should be stopped even at the expense of war as it also is contagious to other nations.

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:

That is exactly what you are saying. You are saying that, in the final analysis, the holocaust was nothing at all. Just shrug your shoulders, say "oh well, what's done is done" and erase it.

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So you advocate releasing every murderer and rapist too under your forgive them and forget the victims too?

Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

joko104 said:

That's a lie because the holocaust did not just happen in death camps. It happened in the streets in front of them. They saw what was done to Jews in their neighbors and in the streets and their businesses. The majority supported it.

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Eh? Since when did Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals get mass executed on the streets in Nazi Germany? Beaten up, discriminated the hell out off.. treated like trash sure.. but mass executions? No.

It seems to me you forget how people in general thought of Jews world wide before WW2.. How Germany treated its Jews was at first not much different than how the US treated its Jews. Now Germany went further and started actually killing them off during the war, but that was in the concentration camps not on the streets of Germany.