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Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

Should German WWII vets still be arrested?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 22.1%

  • No

    Votes: 29 42.6%

  • It depends

    Votes: 24 35.3%
  • Total voters
    68
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Robbie Loucks said:
At this point, we should just forgive and forget.
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So there should be a statute of limitations for murder?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Voltaire X said:
Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.


Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.
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If they were just soldiers then no.If they were the people corralling the victims into the gas chambers or flipping the switch to release the gas then yes they should be arrested.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
So there should be a statute of limitations for murder?
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Yes, I think so. It's not going to help society at all by placing these people in jail for something they hardly remember doing. If they are still leading fruitful lives after all these years, why take that away?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

anonymous polls suck

depends on the situation.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Robbie Loucks said:
Yes, I think so. It's not going to help society at all by placing these people in jail for something they hardly remember doing. If they are still leading fruitful lives after all these years, why take that away?
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Because it sends a message, that murder is one of the most serious crimes and that you can't get away with it by evading the authorities for a certain number of years.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

No.

If they didn't do what they were ordered to, what would have happened to them?

I think what is on their conscience is punishment enough.

I lived in Germany for 6 years, and was there when the wall fell. War is hell, and people did what they had to to survive.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
No.

If they didn't do what they were ordered to, what would have happened to them?

I think what is on their conscience is punishment enough.

I lived in Germany for 6 years, and was there when the wall fell. War is hell, and people did what they had to to survive.
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Coercion is no defense to murder. If you intentionally kill someone, it doesn't matter if you were acting under duress or even if your life was threatened by a third party, it's still murder.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
Coercion is no defense to murder. If you intentionally kill someone, it doesn't matter if you were acting under duress or even if your life was threatened by a third party, it's still murder.
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Yes, it is. Can you imagine yourself in the position that if you didn't carry out your orders under the Hitler regime, how your death would be for not following orders?

Would you be the "hero" that bucks the system, and dies doing so? Just to have someone else come behind you and carry out those orders?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
Yes, it is. Can you imagine yourself in the position that if you didn't carry out your orders under the Hitler regime, how your death would be for not following orders?

Would you be the "hero" that bucks the system, and dies doing so? Just to have someone else come behind you and carry out those orders?
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I can't help it if you wish to deny reality. Coercion is not a defense to murder, morally or legally.

I absolutely would have refused to carry out such orders, as any decent person would.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
I can't help it if you wish to deny reality. Coercion is not a defense to murder, morally or legally.

I absolutely would have refused to carry out such orders, as any decent person would.
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Well, if so, you might be a better man than most of us.

But tell me. When not carrying out such orders would lead to your execution under the military law of the time, and someone else would simply do what you refused to, what good is your protest other than effective suicide?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
Well, if so, you might be a better man than most of us.

But tell me. When not carrying out such orders would lead to your execution under the military law of the time, and someone else would simply do what you refused to, what good is your protest other than effective suicide?
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I would not be able to control the actions of others, but I would be able to control my own actions, and avoid being complicit in the atrocities. Plus, there is a small chance that others might summon the courage to refuse as a result of seeing a good example.

Also (although this involves the benefit of hindsight), I would rather die a hero for refusing to carry out such orders, than be executed (or given life imprisonment) as a war criminal for going along with them.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
I can't help it if you wish to deny reality. Coercion is not a defense to murder, morally or legally.

I absolutely would have refused to carry out such orders, as any decent person would.
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What if your executioners decided to punish your family for your disobedience, right after yourself?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
I would not be able to control the actions of others, but I would be able to control my own actions, and avoid being complicit in the atrocities. Plus, there is a small chance that others might summon the courage to refuse as a result of seeing a good example.
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Go for it if it's worth betting your life on.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

NoC_T said:
What if your executioners decided to punish your family for your disobedience, right after yourself?
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That is often how totalitarian regimes operated.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
That is often how totalitarian regimes operated.
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This is the Third Reich we're discussing, after all. Those guys weren't noted for the milk of human kindness.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

NoC_T said:
What if your executioners decided to punish your family for your disobedience, right after yourself?
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What if the people I was ordered to kill had family?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
What if the people I was ordered to kill had family?
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Then you'd make that judgement call. Is the life of your own family more important to you than the life of a stranger's? You might be condemning your loved ones to fates much worse than quick deaths.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
I would rather die a hero for refusing to carry out such orders, than be executed (or given life imprisonment) as a war criminal for going along with them.
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I respect that. At the same time, can you understand that not everyone will have that same courage?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

NoC_T said:
Then you'd make that judgement call. Is the life of your own family more important to you than the life of a stranger's? You might be condemning your loved ones to fates much worse than quick deaths.
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I wouldn't judge one innocent life worth more than another. I would refuse to kill any of them, and if others chose to kill then that would be their own action. I am responsible for my own actions, not for the actions of others.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
I wouldn't judge one innocent life worth more than another. I would refuse to kill any of them, and if others chose to kill then that would be their own action. I am responsible for my own actions, not for the actions of others.
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And so it is. I couldn't condemn my family to grisly deaths for the sake of a stranger I could make myself not think about.

I bow to the greater man.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
I respect that. At the same time, can you understand that not everyone will have that same courage?
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I can understand it. I can also understand why Dudley and Stephens murdered their crew mate, or why the "Manson girls" helped him with his killings. That doesn't mean that their actions should be legally permissible.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Paleocon said:
I wouldn't judge one innocent life worth more than another. I would refuse to kill any of them, and if others chose to kill then that would be their own action. I am responsible for my own actions, not for the actions of others.
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I would honestly like to think that I would do the same, but I'm not so sure.

Do you charge a person for a war crime because they aren't as courageous as you want to believe you are? Can you honestly say that would be your actions if actually confronted with that situation?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
I would honestly like to think that I would do the same, but I'm not so sure.

Do you charge a person for a war crime because they aren't as courageous as you want to believe you are? Can you honestly say that would be your actions if actually confronted with that situation?
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If their lack of courage causes them to intentionally kill another person, then yes. Yes.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Proud South Korean said:
The situation is different. In the present soldiers have ways to report illegal orders even though there may be retribution. Back then there was only death.
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There are innumerable examples of SS and other concentration camp guards being transferred upon their own request. The SS and Camp apparatus did not want guards and witnesses who lacked commitment to the mission and would bring word back with them to Germany and the rest of the military.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lord of Planar said:
No.

If they didn't do what they were ordered to, what would have happened to them?

I think what is on their conscience is punishment enough.

I lived in Germany for 6 years, and was there when the wall fell. War is hell, and people did what they had to to survive.
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They would have been transferred most likely. Almost no German soldiers were 'ordered to kill' those who manned the firing trenches, the gas chambers, and the execution block were almost all there by choice. Whether Wehrmacht or SS.
 
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