Rape and Clothing

I only rape scantily clad men.

ChrisL said:

I know you weren't addressing me, but I don't think it's offensive. However, throughout the thread you have been placing WAY too much emphasis on choice of clothing leading to rape, and it kind of seems as if you might be insinuating that women who dress in a certain way are perhaps partially responsible for a crime being committed against them.

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To be fair here, it kind of is the subject of the thread. :lol:

As I've said from the start here, I don't think clothing can be considered to be a factor in all, or even most, rapes. I frankly don't even think that it is the major factor even in rapes where it can be said to have played a role. Behavior and environment are pretty much always more important.

I simply disagree with the idea that it is impossible for clothing to ever play a role in creating the kinds of situations which make rape possible. Rather, I think it can serve as a contributing factor when speaking of certain kinds of rapes, that take place under very particular circumstances (i.e. date rapes). This is the case because very revealing clothing tends to draw a lot attention to a woman from men, and a portion of that attention will sometimes come from dangerous individuals.

Again, however; as I pointed out earlier, most of that danger can be negated fairly easily. It simply requires that a woman takes precautions to ensure her safety, like traveling with a group, and avoiding getting too drunk or overly flirtatious with strange men if she doesn't have any interest in actually sleeping with them.

All I'm suggesting is that this much should really be considered to be common sense, and that we should make a point of better emphasizing such realities to young and vulnerable women. Preaching that all men are simply going to behave themselves "because they should" is unrealistic, and can even be dangerously counter-productive in some cases. :shrug:

Anyway, I really do think it's a smart idea to take precautions, but like I said, I would still not ever say to a rape victim, "oh well you shouldn't have done this or that," because in most cases it probably wouldn't have really made much difference IMO. I think that most rapists are disturbed individuals, at least on some level.

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It certainly wouldn't be very sensitive after the fact. I fully agree with you there. lol

However, that's exactly why I support spreading this kind of "preventative" knowledge before rapes happen in the first place. It might not stop rapes which are unrelated to these kinds of issues, but it certainly can play a role in making women less vulnerable to the kinds of assaults that actually are preventable.

I'm heading off to bed now, so have a good night! :2wave: No hard feelings I hope.

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None at all.

Have a good night! :2wave:

ChrisL said:

So then you agree with me that the woman is NOT responsible for her rape because of clothing she is wearing.

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Not responsible? No. She is not responsible for being raped. Did her choice of clothing have any bearing on her being a more likely victim? Perhaps. The whole "victim blaming" thing tends to miss the whole point of the argument, turning it into a black and white argument that deals only in emotion, not rational discourse.

Gipper said:

Partially disagree. It may not be her "fault", but in some cases she should be held accountable for certain aspects.

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You are wrong. It is ALWAYS the rapist's fault. Period.

herenow1 said:

So skirts and dresses shouldn't be worn b/c it's easy access? Just asking.

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I wouldn't recommend it to my congressman for legislation. I would recommend it to my sister for her midnight trip to the gas station.

NoC_T said:

It's not the clothes. It's not power.

Opportunism, pure and simple.

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Actually, criminologists have proven that it is in fact about control(i.e. power). Through years of profiling the criminological community has found that most rapists came from backgrounds that gave them no control of their situations, be that an absentee or overly controlling parent, raped themselves during childhood, or even psychological problems but no matter which way you look at it the act of forcible rape is a power play and not engaged for gratification. The idea behind any legal statute on rape is inability to give consent, so forcible would be a rape/battery, statutory comes from the fact that a minor cannot legally consent to a sex act with an adult, and other rapes such as drugging or other forms of less aggressive rape all stem from the same concept, no consent from the victim.

molten_dragon said:

This quote is always trotted out whenever a discussion of rape takes place, and I always find it ridiculous. There are many ways to demonstrate power and control over someone, rape is only one of them. So to say that rape is not about sex at all is just silly. It may also be about power and control, but it's at least partly about sex.

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The thing about the "power play" aspect of rape is this: Controlling behavior takes many forms all the way from forcing your will upon someone by having a higher standing(subordination, think abusive boss), to spousal abuse, to manipulative behavior, intimidation, etc. but nothing is more personal than physically and mentally violating someone.

Physical attacks like beating someone into submission are a controlling behavior, but those bruises and cuts heal, may scar, but they heal. Taking a person's dignity is a much more permanent thing, violating a person to the point that you've been intimate with them in that sense is as bad as abuse gets, and it's a lifetime thing. I agree with the criminologists I've interacted with who have said without a doubt that rape is the ultimate in controlling behavior, it is a permanent scar left on the victim, and it really is among the most disgusting things one person can do to another.

ChrisL said:

What you described is a crime of opportunity. It didn't have to do with her clothing. If she was wearing jeans and T-shirt in your scenario, would the rape not have happened? :roll:

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Gathomas88 said:

How is that a "crime of opportunity?" View attachment 67162272

It would seem to be more a case of a man not taking "no" for an answer from a woman that he perceived to simply be leading him on. While it might not have been the sole factor involved, her style of dress did contribute to that.

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All crime is based off of opportunity, for instance, if an attacker observes me at 5'10" and 195lbs. of mostly muscle or a guy who is 5"5" 95lbs. he will choose the smaller guy. If a person is intent on armed robbery they will choose the least secure premises/person rather than a path that would lead to being stopped. Rape, and all other crimes all follow the same pattern, most gain with least consequence.

Gathomas88 said:

Again, not all rapes start with the man having the deliberate intention to rape his victim. The lines occasionally blur after the fact, which might result in the rape being more of a crime of passion.

In any case, the reality that suggestive clothing often plays a role in how men profile women isn't up for debate. It is a self-evident fact.

Do you really think that the kind of men who would be inclined to rape women are going to ignore this?



Do we really have to do this again, Chris? :roll:

We just finished one of these bitchfests in that other thread about Yoga pants only yesterday! :lol:

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Cannot disagree more here. A man(not just a male) must expect the best of standards of himself, this includes impulse control. I don't care if I'm on "the edge" the second a woman changes her mind that is that, if she says no and isn't role playing then the moment is over, that's just part of being a man.

ChrisL said:

I think that sometimes women do stupid things that might put themselves at greater risk, yes; but so has everyone at one point or another in their lives, and that in no way excuses the rape. There is NO excuse. It is a crime and violation of another person. I don't care what the person did. I can't think of ONE situation in which I would actually "blame" the woman for a man's decision to rape her.

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It's subjects like these that make me more determined than ever to teach the girl I'm talking to and her daughter the dirty shots they need to completely **** up an attacker's day. I would much rather they be on trial for completely decimating a potential rapist than being harmed.

ChrisL said:

I would say that getting inebriated and passing out at a party full of men is putting oneself at risk, but it still doesn't equal "responsibility" for the crime committed against that person IMO. It means she was stupid and made a really bad decision, but I still wouldn't hold her responsible for the actions of another person against her.

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Personal story, I considered pledging my local chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon during college because their charter stated they were the "gentleman's fraternity" and later found out they were drugging women at the parties and molesting them, I was absolutely appalled and at the same time glad my good name wasn't associated with that.

KevinKohler said:

I'd say a chicks odds of running into a would be rapist is much higher at a college party than in a scary looking unlit parking lot or whatever.

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Depends. Predators always look for a weakness, abusers are adept at knowing which type of woman will put up with their ****, whereas a rapist who is willing to drug a victim will pick an opportunity such as a college party, a rapist more willing to engage in forcible rape wants a dark alley, unlit parking lot, or otherwise an area where they can sneak up on and grab a victim.

LaMidRighter said:

All crime is based off of opportunity, for instance, if an attacker observes me at 5'10" and 195lbs. of mostly muscle or a guy who is 5"5" 95lbs. he will choose the smaller guy. If a person is intent on armed robbery they will choose the least secure premises/person rather than a path that would lead to being stopped. Rape, and all other crimes all follow the same pattern, most gain with least consequence.

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True! And I'm reminded of a notorious case of a serial killer husband & wife, who just happen to live on the same street as a close friend of mine back 20 to 25 years ago. The wife was for the most part - the enabler, while the husband picked most of his victims - schoolgirls on their way home after school, at random...just based on an opportunity presenting itself to him. He kept a bottle of chloroform and duct tape in his glove compartment, so he would be ready whenever an opportunity for another abduction presented itself. One of the girls he abducted and took home for fun and games before killing her - he noticed while driving home from work late at night. The girl had been trying to sneak back home without waking her parents....possibly trying to figure a way to climb in through a window. He offered to help her...then drugged and abducted her...the rest is tragic history...but it was just a case of another victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time! She was 15 years old at the time, and just happened to match the profile of his favorite victims.....nothing to do with what she was wearing...case closed!

LaMidRighter said:

Cannot disagree more here. A man(not just a male) must expect the best of standards of himself, this includes impulse control. I don't care if I'm on "the edge" the second a woman changes her mind that is that, if she says no and isn't role playing then the moment is over, that's just part of being a man.

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I guess this is why I don't follow his posts! I hope those points written in third person, don't turn out to be personal confessions.

KevinKohler said:

I'd say a chicks odds of running into a would be rapist is much higher at a college party than in a scary looking unlit parking lot or whatever.

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The majority of rape victims know their attacker. Family members and partners/spouses account for the highest numbers. So, you're not correct on that one.

Given this information, the venue doesn't matter so much as the moment of opportunity. The college party scenario is a popular stereotype because it's an environment that we associate with lack of responsibility, lack of inhibition, and total disregard. It's actually an environment where calculated attacks are more difficult to accomplish.

The sad fact is that fewer attacks happen in parties than in those scary parking lots or dark pathways leading home.

Northern Light said:

The majority of rape victims know their attacker. Family members and partners/spouses account for the highest numbers. So, you're not correct on that one.

Given this information, the venue doesn't matter so much as the moment of opportunity. The college party scenario is a popular stereotype because it's an environment that we associate with lack of responsibility, lack of inhibition, and total disregard. It's actually an environment where calculated attacks are more difficult to accomplish.

The sad fact is that fewer attacks happen in parties than in those scary parking lots or dark pathways leading home.

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Of those reported.

Let me paint you a picture.

Freshman girl gets invited to a party by a couple of her upperclassmen friends. They go. It's maybe her first or second time ever consuming alcohol. Beer in the keg, liquor in the fridge. Her friends hand her a drink. She gets buzzed. She meets a guy. He's funny, charming, etc, especially now that she has beer goggles on. She's having a blast! She decides to ditch the beer, it tastes awful. She goes for vodka. With some juice. Much better! By the time she is done with her second drink, she's drunk, and doesn't even taste the alcohol anymore. Her new guy friend offers to get her another so she doesn't have to get up. How sweet! Why yes, thank you.

The next morning, she wakes up in a strange room, on a strange bed, and she's naked. Oh my god, what did I do last night? Vaguely, she recalls the party winding down, getting lame. Her guy friend offered to walk her back home, but there was another party getting started across campus he was going to. Sounded fun, she went. No memory, then she remembers his hand rubbing her leg while on the couch. So she grabed it, and held her hand. Then she remembers making out with him. He puts his hand on her chest...then down. She pushes back a little, mumbles a drunken slur of a NO....



But there she is, naked in a bed.






I have seen many a girl leave a house the morning after with shame all over her face. Happened to a friend of mine, too, exactly as I told it. This happens every single weekend on campuses all over the US.

X Factor said:

You mention the hairs standing up on the back of your neck, Maggie, and that touches in something I believe firmly in, and this goes for everybody....trust your intuition. A female friend told me once about how she was in a bank parking lot going to her car when she noticed two guys hanging around the car next to hers. Now they could have been there for any reason. Maybe they just happened to see each other and were just chatting innocently. After all, it was the middle of the day. She described for me how she felt uneasy and how these 'red flags' we're going off, telling her not to go to any where near her car until she could be among a group of people and that's what she did. I believe strongly in those "red flags". Don't try talking yourself out of them or chastise yourself for being "paranoid". So what if you're wrong about someone and extra precautions you took were unnecessary. That's a damn site better than finding out in the worst possible way that your instincts were 100% accurate but you didn't pay attention to them.

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Great advice, XFactor.

Let me pass along what (I think) Pinkie passed along once before. The Gift of Fear should be required reading in school. Written by Gavin DeBecker, it's an easy and enthralling self-help book that reads like a thriller. I downloaded it as her suggestion and think it should be required reading for every woman. Here's a little sample...

Pre-Incident Indicators (PINS)

PINS (Pre-Incident Indicators)[edit]

• Forced Teaming. This is when a person implies that he has something in common with his chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in."
• Charm and Niceness. This is being polite and friendly to a chosen victim in order to manipulate him or her by disarming their mistrust.
• Too many details. If a person is lying they will add excessive details to make themselves sound more credible to their chosen victim.
• Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: "Oh, I bet you're too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me." The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.
• Loan Sharking. Giving unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they'll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.
• The Unsolicited Promise. A promise to do (or not do) something when no such promise is asked for; this usually means that such a promise will be broken. For example: an unsolicited, "I promise I'll leave you alone after this," usually means the chosen victim will not be left alone. Similarly, an unsolicited "I promise I won't hurt you" usually means the person intends to hurt their chosen victim.
• Discounting the Word "No". Refusing to accept rejection.

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Seriously, every woman should read this book.

vasuderatorrent said:

That's a terrible argument. If a guy is raping somebody, he isn't interested in following the rules. Is it easier to rape a girl wearing a skirt or wearing blue jeans? This is the logic of a criminal.

The criminal doesn't base his decisions based upon what is allowed or what is not allowed. He doesn't care about getting "a pass". He already gave himself a pass. He doesn't need a pass from you or me.

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The point I'm making is that people will rationalize it like "Well, she's dressed like a slut, she was asking for it." It's not a valid rationalization. Yes, nothings going to stop you if that's what you're going to do (you in general, not you personally I hope), but then "asking for it" still doesn't matter because it wasn't about what she was wearing.

MaggieD said:

Pre-Incident Indicators (PINS)

Charm and Niceness. This is being polite and friendly to a chosen victim in order to manipulate him or her by disarming their mistrust.

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This one gives me pause. If I'm being polite and friendly, it's because I'm a nice guy in general. I won't deny that I'd like to get with a sexy lady, but I'm not going to do it against their consent (that said, if any sexy ladies want to consent....)

LaMidRighter said:

Actually, criminologists have proven that it is in fact about control(i.e. power). Through years of profiling the criminological community has found that most rapists came from backgrounds that gave them no control of their situations, be that an absentee or overly controlling parent, raped themselves during childhood, or even psychological problems but no matter which way you look at it the act of forcible rape is a power play and not engaged for gratification. The idea behind any legal statute on rape is inability to give consent, so forcible would be a rape/battery, statutory comes from the fact that a minor cannot legally consent to a sex act with an adult, and other rapes such as drugging or other forms of less aggressive rape all stem from the same concept, no consent from the victim.

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They've 'proven' no such thing. Only the physical aspect isn't interpretative. This isn't empiricism.

I refer you to my earlier post.

LaMidRighter said:

The thing about the "power play" aspect of rape is this: Controlling behavior takes many forms all the way from forcing your will upon someone by having a higher standing(subordination, think abusive boss), to spousal abuse, to manipulative behavior, intimidation, etc. but nothing is more personal than physically and mentally violating someone.

Physical attacks like beating someone into submission are a controlling behavior, but those bruises and cuts heal, may scar, but they heal. Taking a person's dignity is a much more permanent thing, violating a person to the point that you've been intimate with them in that sense is as bad as abuse gets, and it's a lifetime thing. I agree with the criminologists I've interacted with who have said without a doubt that rape is the ultimate in controlling behavior, it is a permanent scar left on the victim, and it really is among the most disgusting things one person can do to another.

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Again, here you're applying an arbitrary scale of suffering. There must be any number of ways in which someone's sense of self may be violated, to whatever degree, and with no necessity of physical intervention whatsoever. There's no baseline.

Gathomas88 said:

She is not responsible. The only "responsibility" a victim carries is making sure that they are not in a position to be victimized in the first place.

Responsibility for the crime itself always falls on the perpetrator.

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I'm so glad we agree on that.

Gathomas88 said:

To be fair here, it kind of is the subject of the thread. :lol:

As I've said from the start here, I don't think clothing can be considered to be a factor in all, or even most, rapes. I frankly don't even think that it is the major factor even in rapes where it can be said to have played a role. Behavior and environment are pretty much always more important.

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This is what I've been trying to say all along. It's more about being in the wrong place at the wrong time and with the wrong person.

I simply disagree with the idea that it is impossible for clothing to ever play a role in creating the kinds of situations which make rape possible. Rather, I think it can serve as a contributing factor when speaking of certain kinds of rapes, that take place under very particular circumstances (i.e. date rapes). This is the case because very revealing clothing tends to draw a lot attention to a woman from men, and a portion of that attention will sometimes come from dangerous individuals.

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Again, if a person isn't careless in their behavior, their clothing would play little if any role.

Again, however; as I pointed out earlier, most of that danger can be negated fairly easily. It simply requires that a woman takes precautions to ensure her safety, like traveling with a group, and avoiding getting too drunk or overly flirtatious with strange men if she doesn't have any interest in actually sleeping with them.

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I can agree with this.

All I'm suggesting is that this much should really be considered to be common sense, and that we should make a point of better emphasizing such realities to young and vulnerable women. Preaching that all men are simply going to behave themselves "because they should" is unrealistic, and can even be dangerously counter-productive in some cases. :shrug:

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I understand all of that, and all of this has much more to do with irresponsible behavior than choice of clothing. I know that you would like to make assumptions about a person based upon his/her clothing, but it really doesn't necessarily mean that a person is irresponsible or stupid either. Just because some people might be more flamboyant than others doesn't really mean they are "slutty" or anything. I would withhold my opinions about a person based upon their behavior rather than how they appear or how they are dressed.

It certainly wouldn't be very sensitive after the fact. I fully agree with you there. lol

However, that's exactly why I support spreading this kind of "preventative" knowledge before rapes happen in the first place. It might not stop rapes which are unrelated to these kinds of issues, but it certainly can play a role in making women less vulnerable to the kinds of assaults that actually are preventable.

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I understand that you just want to help, and I think some people might be being a little hard on you here.

Another reason why you can say that clothing has little to do with MOST rapes is because of the level of sickness of the perp. Who would want to have sex with a person who is crying and screaming and begging you to stop? I would think that would be a COMPLETE turn off for a "normal" person. Wanting to force a person to have sex with you when they do NOT want you?! It really shows how disturbed the rapist must be.

Even in the case of "drunk" rapes. Who wants to have sex with a person who is completely unresponsive and doesn't even know what's going on? It's messed up IMO.

Cephus said:

Not responsible? No. She is not responsible for being raped. Did her choice of clothing have any bearing on her being a more likely victim? Perhaps. The whole "victim blaming" thing tends to miss the whole point of the argument, turning it into a black and white argument that deals only in emotion, not rational discourse.

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My point is that even if a woman is wearing a one-piece pantsuit, if she goes off with a strange man THAT would be putting herself at risk. Meanwhile, the girl dressed provocatively could be behaving in a much more safe manner, so it has much more to do with behavior than clothing. Putting yourself in risky situations and being unaware of your surroundings is the contributing factor IMO and it has very little to do with clothing. And even if a woman does happen to find herself in a risky situation and the victim of a crime, I still don't hold HER responsible for others taking advantage of her in that way. Perhaps she is just naive. :shrug: