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Do you think the US Constitution is a holy, infallible document?

Do you think the US Constitution is a holy, infallible document?

  • Yes, the Constitution is political perfection and infallible. Worthy of worship.

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • No, it was created by men and while it's a good document, let's not get wrapped around the axle.

    Votes: 30 83.3%
  • The Constitution sucks, we need a new one every few years.

    Votes: 1 2.8%
  • The Constitution surpasses even politics and is THE document for all of society and civilization.

    Votes: 3 8.3%

  • Total voters
    36
Again, more childish remarks. Stop beating around the bush and explain specifically how my analysis of your position is wrong.

What's to explain?

You attributed positions to me, which I never took, and demanded that I defend them.

You do not get to dishonestly put words in my mouth, and them make demands on me based on them.

You do not get to make demands on me, period; but more than that, you do not get to make demands on me that are based on your own willful lies.
 
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What's to explain?

You attributed positions to me, which I never took, and demanded that I defend them.

You do not get to dishonestly put words in my mouth, and them make demands on me based on them.

You do not get to make demands on me, period; but more than that, you do not get to make demands on me that are based on your own willful lies.

Oh so you're gonna put an incendiary claim out there and then run away from it when someone calls you out on it? Wow, that right there deserves a slow clap.

You said--and this is a DIRECT QUOTE:

Bob Blaylock said:
MY religion uniquely has a passage of canonized scripture which explicitly states that God inspired the Constitution to be written and established, through men that he raised up specifically for this purpose.

To me, the Constitution itself is scripture; perhaps not directly the word of God, but very close to it.

I claim that this bizarre belief is completely divorced from reality. I ask you to present convincing arguments that would make me change my mind.
 
Oh so you're gonna put an incendiary claim out there and then run away from it when someone calls you out on it? Wow, that right there deserves a slow clap.

You said--and this is a DIRECT QUOTE:



I claim that this bizarre belief is completely divorced from reality. I ask you to present convincing arguments that would make me change my mind.

You asked, "Can you please show us where in the Bible it commands a nation--which had yet to exist at the time--to base its government on a specific and contrived interpretation of said Bible?"
He might not be referring to the Bible. He might be Mormon. And he might not be inclined to evangelize, to 'change your mind'.
 
You asked, "Can you please show us where in the Bible it commands a nation--which had yet to exist at the time--to base its government on a specific and contrived interpretation of said Bible?"
He might not be referring to the Bible. He might be Mormon. And he might not be inclined to evangelize, to 'change your mind'.

All of which he could clarify with one concise, well-written post.
 
Perfect and worshipful? No.


Mighty good and worth keeping? Hell yes.


Better than anything we're liable to get if the current crop of politicos start tinkering? Oh hell yes.
 
Oh so you're gonna put an incendiary claim out there and then run away from it when someone calls you out on it? Wow, that right there deserves a slow clap.

You said--and this is a DIRECT QUOTE:

MY religion uniquely has a passage of canonized scripture which explicitly states that God inspired the Constitution to be written and established, through men that he raised up specifically for this purpose.

To me, the Constitution itself is scripture; perhaps not directly the word of God, but very close to it.

I claim that this bizarre belief is completely divorced from reality. I ask you to present convincing arguments that would make me change my mind.

This is the first time you've addressed what I actually said. In the mean time, I have given as much explanation of my true position as I intend to. I specified my religion, I specified where in my religion's scriptures the principle is stated which I expressed; and I expressed my own opinion built on that source. Agree with it your not, that's your choice. Given the blatant dishonesty that you have so far demonstrated, I see no reason why I should care about any opinion you choose to take or express. Based on your behavior so far, I have no reason to assume that anything you say is true.

Up until now, you have insisted on ignoring what I actually said, and attributing this blatant lie to me and demanding that I defend it.

Can you please show us where in the Bible it commands a nation--which had yet to exist at the time--to base its government on a specific and contrived interpretation of said Bible?


Anyway, we're done, here. I've had enough of your lies and your other dishonest games. I'm calling the Special Olympics rule—staying in an argument with you is like competing in the Special Olympics; even when one wins, one is still a retard, for wasting the effort on you. I do not intend to waste any more effort on you.
 
All of which he could clarify with one concise, well-written post.

Well, I didn't need a clarifying post. I just read what he wrote, same as you did.
 
Well, I didn't need a clarifying post. I just read what he wrote, same as you did.

In any event, the “clarifying post”* was already there nearly an hour before he made this demand:

Can you please show us where in the Bible it commands a nation--which had yet to exist at the time--to base its government on a specific and contrived interpretation of said Bible?

In the extreme stretch that holds it not to be obvious in the first place that I never said what he was trying to attribute to me, the post was already there for him to see, which made it absolutely clear.

* http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...-holy-infallible-document.html#post1062926399
 
...the Book of Mormon; which mostly contains the account of a group that left Israel around 600 BC, traveled to the Americas, and here established a great civilization. After about a thousand years, they fell into wickedness and degradation, and were wiped out.

Super_disbelief_gif.gif


****. I need to revisit my history books I guess.
 
In any event, the “clarifying post”* was already there nearly an hour before he made this demand:


In the extreme stretch that holds it not to be obvious in the first place that I never said what he was trying to attribute to me, the post was already there for him to see, which made it absolutely clear.

* http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...-holy-infallible-document.html#post1062926399

Ahh, finally, some clarification. Your beliefs are Mormon, not evangelical. I'll read up on this and get back to you later.
 
Slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, and the South's response to the Civil Rights movement all prove how disastrous giving state governments too much freedom from the federal government can be. If you're gonna cite amendments, you'd better include the Fourteenth and Ninth as well as just the Second and the Tenth.

it is constitutional law which has state government powers numerous and infinite, the federal government powers few and defined.....the federal government does not make the decision on state power

the 14th, freed the slaves and says......government cannot discriminate, the 9th is where rights which are recognized by the USSC are placed, and the 10th, is very direct and specific, stating if a power is not delegated to the federal government by the Constitution ........is it a state power.


federalsit 45--The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
 
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it is constitutional law which has state government powers numerous and infinite, the federal government powers few and defined.....the federal government does not make the decision on state power

the 14th, freed the slaves and says......government cannot discriminate, the 9th is where rights which are recognized by the USSC are placed, and the 10th, is very direct and specific, stating if a power is not delegated to the federal government by the Constitution ........is it a state power.


federalsit 45--The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

Dude I can hardly even read this.
 
Dude I can hardly even read this.


you cannot read that :

---------->state government powers numerous and infinite.

----------> federal government powers few and defined

the 14th freed the slave population, and made it illegal for government to discriminate.

the 9th amendment is where rights recognized by USSC are placed.......IE......[right to vote]

10th--all powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution are state powers.

state powers concern the concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people..........not federal powers.
 
anonymous polls suck
 
MY religion uniquely has a passage of canonized scripture which explicitly states that God inspired the Constitution to be written and established, through men that he raised up specifically for this purpose.

To me, the Constitution itself is scripture; perhaps not directly the word of God, but very close to it.

And there is something I have been thinking about, that I find troubling.

Another volume of my religion's scripture gives account of two groups of people, who, at different times in history, were guided by God to travel across the ocean, from the Old World to somewhere in the Americas, where they thrived for a while, formed great civilizations, and then fell into wickedness and were wiped out. I see our own society on a similar path today. At one point, we had the greatest civilization that the world has ever known, but we have been in decline for at least two or three generations, and are slowly falling into wickedness and destruction. I'm old enough that I will probably not live to see the end of our society, but I have little doubt that unless we change course drastically, that there are those alive today who will see this end.

shocked-spit-out-drink-o.gif


The silliness of Mormonism aside how the hell can anyone seriously say the Constitution is the word of God?
 
Some people (especially here) seem to think the US constitution is the end-all and be-all of political thought, and should be adhered to like a holy document. Do you agree? Or is it possible for it to be fallible and, in fact, wrong? Should we follow it as a means to an end, or is following the constitution the highest political end possible?

To answer your two-part question in your thread title"

1. I don't have a religious bone in my body, so I don't think ANYTHING is holy.

2. Nothing made by man is infallible.

Now...having said that, I think the Constitution is the best any country has come up with to date. I have to qualify that by saying I'm not any kind of a scholar so I don't know everything there is to know about every country's constitution. We MUST follow our Constitution because it is the supreme law of our land...politics plays no part in deciding whether to follow it or not.

I have no problem changing the Constitution...if done through the process described in the Constitution...but I won't necessarily support any particular proposed change.
 
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No. Not even close.
Does this mean IMO we should get rid of it? No not even close. I think its a broad, living document that should be open to different interpretations and be amended and added on.
 
I do believe the Constitution should be strictly adhered to. It is the legal framework that outlines what the duties and powers are of our federal government, how those powers are divided, and what limitations are imposed upon those freedoms. If we ignore or constantly "re-interpret" that framework, then we are left with few if any meaningful limits on government power.

That said, the document was certainly not perfect at any point. The original version accepted the existence of slavery, gave voting rights to a very limited portion of the population, counted slaves as 2/3 of a person, and had numerous other flaws. That's why the Founding Fathers wisely included the amendment process.
 
Some people (especially here) seem to think the US constitution is the end-all and be-all of political thought, and should be adhered to like a holy document. Do you agree? Or is it possible for it to be fallible and, in fact, wrong? Should we follow it as a means to an end, or is following the constitution the highest political end possible?

First, I don't believe it's "holy". That's ridiculous. There's no reason to believe it's consecrated by God or a religious purpose. This is just ridiculous hyperbole on your part, clearly showing from moment one that you have no desire for any kind of honest discussio nabout this.

Second, I don't believe it's infallible. Men are inherently fallible, and thus anything created by men is as well.

With that said, I do believe as a foundational governmental structure and philosophy it's the best that I've personally reveiwed or studied. It was created by men whom I believe to be exceedingly intelligent, through a lengthy and detailed process, with great research and thought put into it during a time period where the context surrounding it was of utmost importance to it's formation and philosophy.

I view it as I do many comprehensive items, be it in politics or elsewhere, in that it functions best when it's entire system is respected and utilized rather than attempting to tinker with a part here or there without a significant and meaningful understanding of how the various portions interact together to form a cohesive unit.

I believe that it's a well crafted document with an necessary firmly formed foundation that has an incredibly flexable house built upon it. However, that flexability is not always easy to attain and I think that's actually a GOOD attribute of it...but for many, because it's difficult (and maybe even impossible for their ends) then they instead seek other means to reach their ends, such as tearing down that which doesn't allow them to do what they want.

I don't believe it's infallible, but I think it's a great foundation and something that I'd rather see the country adhere to than not. There are a MULTITUDE of countries all around the world that have varying political philosophies. I enjoy the notion of CHOICE (ironically enough how that word works in various debates)...I don't want to see the United State's, and the foundation of it's political makeup (IE The Constitution), simply become marginalized as just another European-style western nation because a few people who are upset that the "means" to their "ends" are too difficult under the american mentality of government. I like having a CHOICE of a country whose founding principles and governmental foundation is one where the people bestow power upon the government, not the other way around. Where the government is a servent, not the other way around. Where limited governmental intervention is preferred over additional. Where the freedom to fail or succeed is present, rather than an attempt to artificially create a level society. Is that the BEST method? Who knows, that's a question of personal preference. But it's at least a somewhat unique method, which institutes a notion of CHOICE and an ability to try a different way.

Instead, you have people who are upset that they can't have their cake and eat it too...that they can't reach their ends in America, so they try and forcefully change the means and remove that CHOICE from people. That their own personal "ends" are the ones that must be followed to the highest political points possible and to hell with the rules, traditions, laws, or foundational guidelines.

I believe that the United States Constitution is absolutely fallible; it is of man. But I do believe it's the best foundational basis that I've seen for a country, and that it should be adhered to as best as possible in line with original intent and within it's framework and that many of the problems and pitfalls identified within the Constitution largely form due to attempts of distorting, contorting, and outright wrongfully reworking that framework into a frankenstein of what it was creating a flaw within a system due to ignorance and ego of those seeking their political ends by any means necessary. I believe that if someone comes forth with an actual foundational governmental system that I believe is better that I would fully and completely support it despite it too being fallible...but until such time, I will stick with the one the one I believe works best.

EVERY system made by man is fallible. Highlighting that the Constitution is such is like pointing out the sky is blue and then laughing as if that won you an argument. ANY change or alteration that is sought to be made to it is ALSO fallible. The real question is....do people have greater faith in the thought processes, intent, motives, forethought, intelligence, and research done by those at the time of the founding than they do with regards to Joe Jackass Activist or Bleeding Heart Barbara or every random Internet Pseudointellectual political hipster?

My answer would be yes, yes I do. And without seeing a significantly presented, reasoned, and thoroughly backed up argument as to why the Constitution should be scrapped entirely, or why a particular portion or philosophy of it should be scrapped, that actually does a great job of showing why the replacement would be better or the change wouldn't damage the system as a whole then you're unlikely to find me rallying behind some effort to "fundamentally transform" it.
 
I believe it has to do with the ordination and establishment of our secular and temporal morals in our social contract.
 
I didn't agree with any of your options.

The constitution, while good, is not by any means perfect. Just the fact that socialism was allowed to grow and influence our society today proves that it was not perfect. While I don't think we need a new one every few years, I do think that we need a new one that greater protects the individual from the predatory evil of socialism and promotes meritocracy. It should guarantee equal treatment of all in law, but recognize that true equality does not and cannot ever exist so individual rights should be based upon what the individual earns for themselves, not given freely just because someone exists.
 
Do you have any idea what religion he is referring too when he says "a passage of canonized scripture which explicitly states that God inspired the Constitution to be written and established, through men that he raised up specifically for this purpose"?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In part of a revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith found in the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord reveals to Joseph:

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

 
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Do you have any idea what religion he is referring too when he says "a passage of canonized scripture which explicitly states that God inspired the Constitution to be written and established, through men that he raised up specifically for this purpose"?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In part of a revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith found in the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord reveals to Joseph: 77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.



The Book of Mormon also teaches God was with the American founders:http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/13?lang=eng
 
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