Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights? [W:85]

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

haymarket said:

I have no idea what you even mean. You make no sense. You ignore the law and the power to enforce it while embracing your own standard which means nothing as to what is legal or not legal. Your silly statement is irrelevant not to mention just nonsensical in view of reality in the USA of 2014.

You were the one who advocated changing the laws so that people could legally act upon their bigotry. Nothing I said approaches the low intelligence of that license you would give to bigots.

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really?..you saying discrimination is not legal....why?

in order to be discriminated against.......... something must be denied to a person who is seeking something......a good or service from another person.

if a person discriminated, does he violate another person rights........NO!.......because you have no right to be served by another person with material goods or services.

if a person discriminated, does he violate the health and safety of another person......NO!........another person's health and saftey is not at risk.

laws which apply to the people, should only concern rights, and the health and saftey of the people............not yours or other peoples moral values.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

All rights have limits imposed by law.

When you have a business the government regulates where it can be located, the type of building you can use, the type of sign you display, how you can fire and hire people, the minimum wage, how you dispose of waste, and fire and other safety requirements. You are also required to document your income and expenses to pay your taxes and get deductions. If you have a restaurant, you will be inspected to make sure that the food is protected properly from spoilage and contamination, that the employees wash their hands and wear proper clothing and hair nets etc, that you have pests under control, provide access to the disabled, have accessible restrooms and much more.

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There are certainly limitations to the exercise of rights, the one natural limitation is that you may not infringe upon the rights of others in the exercise of your own.

But you prove my point, which is that these laws can and do infringe upon the rights of the individual. Some folk are trying to make statements of absolute, they uphold ALL our rights ALL the time. But that's not true. We have made an ideal above rights, and we will infringe upon property and labor to achieve what we have envisioned as "fair".

Health requirements, BTW, do have direct impact on health and thus life. Having a certain baker make your wedding cake does not.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

my copy states a republican form of government which is non collective, because the power is divided, ..collectivism, concentrates powers...it does not divide it.

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WOW!!!!! Did you get cheated !!!!! Now this explains everything about you ideology and beliefs.

Return it at once and get one that starts our with the collectivist sentiment


WE THE PEOPLE

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

really?..you saying discrimination is not legal....why?

in order to be discriminated against.......... something must be denied to a person who is seeking something......a good or service from another person.

if a person discriminated, does he violate another person rights........NO!.......because you have no right to be served by another person with material goods or services.

if a person discriminated, does he violate the health and safety of another person......NO!........another person's health and saftey is not at risk.

laws which apply to the people, should only concern rights, and the health and saftey of the people............not yours or other peoples moral values.

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Its like you are reading Egyptian or something. What about this do you not comprehend?

You were the one who advocated changing the laws so that people could legally act upon their bigotry. Nothing I said approaches the low intelligence of that license you would give to bigots.



As to your Alice in Wonderland Mad Hatter logic..... this expresses just what I feel about it since it has nothing to do with the real USA of 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG-qCyYZRms

You might want to watch it several times in case you fail to comprehend the central point the first time or twelve.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

haymarket said:

WOW!!!!! Did you get cheated !!!!! Now this explains everything about you ideology and beliefs.

Return it at once and get one that starts our with the collectivist sentiment


WE THE PEOPLE

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The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.


REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT IS NON- COLLECTIVE.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.


REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT IS NON- COLLECTIVE.

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talk to Mr. Meaney

Kevin Meaney's (I Don't Care Song) - YouTube

he says all that needs to be said about your beliefs

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

haymarket said:

its like you are reading egyptian or something. What about this do you not comprehend?

you were the one who advocated changing the laws so that people could legally act upon their bigotry. Nothing i said approaches the low intelligence of that license you would give to bigots.



as to your alice in wonderland mad hatter logic..... This expresses just what i feel about it since it has nothing to do with the real usa of 2014

YouTube

you might want to watch it several times in case you fail to comprehend the central point the first time or twelve.

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what is illegal about discrimination?

What am i doing to making it unlawful?

Am i violating rights or health and safety?.......please answer!

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

haymarket said:

talk to mr. Meaney

kevin meaney's (i don't care song) - youtube

he says all that needs to be said about your beliefs

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deflection by you...means you have no argument....to save face!

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

please explain to me.....why the government should create a law on the people...........if that law, does not secure rights of the people, or protect the health and safety of the people.

Discrimination laws....do not secure rights, and they do not protect the health and safety of the people.

So why are discrimination laws created for?

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There is widespread consensus that there is no right to not be offended. That is the only so-called "right" infringed upon when a business is "forced" to serve someone with the wrong skin color or accent.

Anti-discrimination laws secure individual's right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice. They prevent the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers, which significantly outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business.

Racial, religious etc. discrimination harms society and vulnerable people. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Even in a more urban environment, discrimination can force poor people to unnecessary waste time and money searching for a business that will accept their money in exchange for goods or services. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.

The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal. In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate.

Discrimination harms society by maintaining an impoverished underclass living with all the ill effects of poverty and oppression, effects which can impact everyone in the form of blight, large numbers of beggars, disease, crime, violence, rebellion and revenge.

Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the negative effects from them still impacts life today. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

Anti-discrimination laws secure individual's right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice. They prevent the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers, which significantly outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business.

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A cupcake is not on the level of Jim Crow laws, so that's a bit ridiculous.

But in the end, you don't own another man's property or labor. You have no right to another man's property or labor. That's the fundamental. There are varying degrees to which refusal of service can have a real and negative impact on the rights of another, and those are cases that can certainly be considered; but there are other cases in which no right is infringed upon, and those should be dismissed.

Can't make everyone think and feel uniformly, and in a free society with large enough population, you will realize the full statistical distribution of actions.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

...if a person discriminated, does he violate the health and safety of another person......NO!........another person's health and saftey is not at risk....

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Some black people died because they were refused medical care at the closest hospital, which happened to be private and discriminatory.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

Some black people died because they were refused medical care at the closest hospital, which happened to be private and discriminatory.

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Discrimination which directly infringes upon the rights of others is legitimate concern and you can call for force of government to prevent against it. Not all discrimination is of that type though, and if no rights are infringed upon then you have no real basis for the use of government force against the rights of others.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Ikari said:

A cupcake is not on the level of Jim Crow laws, so that's a bit ridiculous. ...
Can't make everyone think and feel uniformly, and in a free society with large enough population, you will realize the full statistical distribution of actions.

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It is not practical or helpful to decide that some business's products are so trivial that anti-discrimination laws should not be applied. If someone has to travel to the other side of town to get that cupcake they are still being harmed.

How people and think is not relevant, it is how they treat their employees, potential employees and customers.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

Some black people died because they were refused medical care at the closest hospital, which happened to be private and discriminatory.

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tell me, how does that work, when its applied to a wedding cake or a room at a resort?

since a person would be sick or dying, that would apply to .......health and saftey....try again!

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

There is widespread consensus that there is no right to not be offended. That is the only so-called "right" infringed upon when a business is "forced" to serve someone with the wrong skin color or accent.

Anti-discrimination laws secure individual's right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice. They prevent the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers, which significantly outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business.

Racial, religious etc. discrimination harms society and vulnerable people. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Even in a more urban environment, discrimination can force poor people to unnecessary waste time and money searching for a business that will accept their money in exchange for goods or services. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.

The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal. In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate.

Discrimination harms society by maintaining an impoverished underclass living with all the ill effects of poverty and oppression, effects which can impact everyone in the form of blight, large numbers of beggars, disease, crime, violence, rebellion and revenge.

Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the negative effects from them still impacts life today. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.

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wrong to your whole statement, when your one another person's property you have no execrable rights...zero.

you only have a right to life and liberty on another person property.

discrimination laws, are laws designed to make people moral, towards their fellow man, and unconstitutional, because the government has no moral authority over the people, if they did they could declare abortion , vile and immoral, and put an end to it.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

It is not practical or helpful to decide that some business's products are so trivial that anti-discrimination laws should not be applied. If someone has to travel to the other side of town to get that cupcake they are still being harmed.

How people and think is not relevant, it is how they treat their employees, potential employees and customers.

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That is irrelevant if no rights are infringed upon. You're just making an arbitrary line where you think things are "fair".

The fact remains, you have no right to another man's property or labor. You are forcing people to work for you, paying them so they are more serf than slave, but forcing the work at the barrel of a gun. In this case the force of government. You have no right to another man's property or labor, where do you think you get this right? While government force can be used against exercise of right, it must be because rights have been infringed. Denying medical care, for instance, would infringe upon the rights of another and you can legitimately seek government intervention. Not getting a cupcake, however, does not; and you can simply go to another store instead.

If you cannot demonstrate violation of rights, you cannot demonstrate proper use of government force against the rights of others.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

wrong to your whole statement, when your one another person's property you have no execrable rights...zero.

you only have a right to life and liberty on another person property.

discrimination laws, are laws designed to make people moral, towards their fellow man, and unconstitutional, because the government has no moral authority over the people, if they did they could declare abortion , vile and immoral, and put an end to it.

Click to expand...

It is not practical or helpful to decide that some business's products are so trivial that anti-discrimination laws should not be applied. If someone has to travel to the other side of town to get that cupcake they are still being harmed.

What people feel and think is not relevant, it is how they treat their employees, potential employees and customers that matters with anti-discrimination laws.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

It is not practical or helpful to decide that some business's products are so trivial that anti-discrimination laws should not be applied. If someone has to travel to the other side of town to get that cupcake they are still being harmed.

What people feel and think is not relevant, it is how they treat their employees, potential employees and customers that matters with anti-discrimination laws.

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how are they being harmed?.......no one told them to drive anywhere.


it does not matter how you feel or think of how others treat there fellow man..if its not a rights violation or health and saftey, government has no authority over them and neither do you.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

It is not practical or helpful to decide that some business's products are so trivial that anti-discrimination laws should not be applied. If someone has to travel to the other side of town to get that cupcake they are still being harmed.

What people feel and think is not relevant, it is how they treat their employees, potential employees and customers that matters with anti-discrimination laws.

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No, that's just a convenient definition you're trying to apply to excuse the carte blanche government force you call for. Are rights infringed upon? That's it. If yes, government force, if no, go to the business down the street. Done and done.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Ikari said:

That is irrelevant if no rights are infringed upon. You're just making an arbitrary line where you think things are "fair".

The fact remains, you have no right to another man's property or labor. You are forcing people to work for you, paying them so they are more serf than slave, but forcing the work at the barrel of a gun. In this case the force of government. You have no right to another man's property or labor, where do you think you get this right? While government force can be used against exercise of right, it must be because rights have been infringed. Denying medical care, for instance, would infringe upon the rights of another and you can legitimately seek government intervention. Not getting a cupcake, however, does not; and you can simply go to another store instead.

If you cannot demonstrate violation of rights, you cannot demonstrate proper use of government force against the rights of others.

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I didn't make the arbitrary line beyond expressing my opinion. Our legislators made the anti-discrimination laws and they were upheld by the Supreme court. Only racists, libertarians and extreme consrvatives have a problem with these laws.

I believe most people would agree that the right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice is more important than the "right" to not be offended. The "forced to work like a serf" argument is nonsense. No one is required by anti-discrimination laws to provide a good or service that they are not already willingly providing to everyone else (except the person with the "wrong' skin color) who uses that business.

Its interesting that the laws against racial, religious, etc discrimination are more controversial at this time than the disability access laws, because those laws actually do require business people to spend money and extra effort on providing access, so they are more legitimately considered an imposition.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

I didn't make the arbitrary line beyond expressing my opinion. Our legislators made the anti-discrimination laws and they were upheld by the Supreme court.

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Appeal to authority

Hard Truth said:

Only racists, libertarians and extreme consrvatives have a problem with these laws.

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Ad hom

Do you have an argument that isn't logical fallacy and that addresses the points I raised? Or is it that you have nothing more than hysteria, emotion, and deflection? Cause I've seen that argument for your side already in this thread and we don't need to go down that route.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

how are they being harmed?.......no one told them to drive anywhere.


it does not matter how you feel or think of how others treat there fellow man..if its not a rights violation or health and saftey, government has no authority over them and neither do you.

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Apparently, if individuals and society are harmed by discrimination that doesn't concern you as long as your philosophical notions on the proper role of government are supported by law.

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

Apparently, if individuals and society are harmed by discrimination that doesn't concern you as long as your philosophical notions on the proper role of government are supported by law.

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where is the harm.........your feelings hurt?

feelings are not covered by the constitution.

you have no moral authority to make people act the way you want them to........your being a dictator!


government is created to secure rights...not feelings

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

Hard Truth said:

Apparently, if individuals and society are harmed by discrimination that doesn't concern you as long as your philosophical notions on the proper role of government are supported by law.

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How is one harmed by being refused a cupcake?

Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

ernst barkmann said:

where is the harm.........your feelings hurt?

feelings are not covered by the constitution.

you have no moral authority to make people act the way you want them to........your being a dictator!


government is created to secure rights...not feelings

Click to expand...

Racial, religious etc. discrimination harms society and vulnerable people. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Even in a more urban environment, discrimination can force poor people to unnecessary waste time and money searching for a business that will accept their money in exchange for goods or services. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.

The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal. In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate.

Discrimination harms society by maintaining an impoverished underclass living with all the ill effects of poverty and oppression, effects which can impact everyone in the form of blight, large numbers of beggars, disease, crime, violence, rebellion and revenge.

Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the negative effects from them still impacts life today. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed.