Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

opendebate said:

You know the woman who wrote the words to this song was a lesbian. Right? How you guys feel about that one?

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Why would it matter to you whether she was or not?

opendebate said:

You know the woman who wrote the words to this song was a lesbian. Right? How you guys feel about that one?

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As I already pointed out, who's performing the song is rather inconsequential to what people perceive as it's message. But thanks for injecting more needless accusations of bigotry, and one that seems wholly disconnected from the discussion.

If only people got this upset over stuff that actually mattered. Everyone is so into armchair politics these days.

Coca cola did a good job because all this bitching about a commercial will make their stock go up, which is exactly why they did it.

God, people are so gullible and play right into this. Coca cola says jump and people ask how far. The news pundits who are whining about it are part of the same corporate network that owns coca cola. Don't you see that you're being played???

It was the Superbowl. EVERY YEAR companies do controversial stuff to get people talking about their product!! Why do people always forget what happened last time?

Northern Light said:

If only people got this upset over stuff that actually mattered. Everyone is so into armchair politics these days.

Coca cola did a good job because all this bitching about a commercial will make their stock go up, which is exactly why they did it.

God, people are so gullible and play right into this. Coca cola says jump and people ask how far. The news pundits who are whining about it are part of the same corporate network that owns coca cola. Don't you see that you're being played???

It was the Superbowl. EVERY YEAR companies do controversial stuff to get people talking about their product!! Why do people always forget what happened last time?

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The irony of telling people they're dumb for discussing a topic as you discuss a topic: fact is very few people are actually discussing coke or the commercial here. It's more a discussing about immigration

Sangha said:

They are learning english and assimilating.

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I can provide dozens of sources showing that Latino immigration to the United States has been problematic.

NY Times

Only 15% of Latino adults say they speak English as their primary language.

According to studies on the subject, only 23% of first generation immigrants speak English well, and more than 12% of second generation immigrants still struggle with it.

On the flip side of that, more and more Americans are actually being forced to learn Spanish simply to get by.

Mandatory School Spanish Classes Anger Texas Parents

What is the future of Spanish in the United States?

Furthermore, a great many Latinos don't primarily identify themselves as being "American," but still primarily identify with their country of origin.

When Labels Don’t Fit: Hispanics and Their Views of Identity

When it comes to describing their identity, most Hispanics prefer their family’s country of origin over pan-ethnic terms. Half (51%) say that most often they use their family’s country of origin to describe their identity. That includes such terms as “Mexican” or “Cuban” or “Dominican,” for example. Just one-quarter (24%) say they use the terms “Hispanic” or “Latino” to most often to describe their identity. And 21% say they use the term “American” most often.

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Roughly half of them do not view themselves as being "typical Americans" either.

Latinos are split on whether they see themselves as a typical American. Nearly half (47%) say they are a typical American, while another 47% say they are very different from the typical American. Foreign-born Hispanics are less likely than native-born Hispanics to say they are a typical American—34% versus 66%.

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They also insist on clinging to the Spanish language once they arrive.

Hispanics also want future U.S. Hispanic generations to speak Spanish. Fully 95% of Hispanics believe it is very important (75%) or somewhat important (20%) for future generations of Hispanics in the U.S. to be able to speak Spanish.

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Beyond even that, roughly two thirds of Mexican immigrants who are eligible for citizenship choose not to take it.

The Path Not Taken: Two-thirds of Legal Mexican Immigrants are not U.S. Citizens

Many of them also insist on clinging to national symbols of their old nations, like flags.

Opinions split over red, white and green (Houston Principal flies Mexican Flag at School)

I'm sorry, but the simple fact of the matter here is that these kinds of problems were virtually unheard of with previous waves of immigrants to this country.

Hell! They are unheard for current waves of non-Hispanic immigrants.

Far be it from me to claim that all Latino immigrants to the United States are trouble makers and should be barred entrance. I don't believe anything of the kind. I'm sure that a great many of them legitimately do want to integrate into our culture and become productive members of our society.

The problem here, is that there also exists a sizeable element of the Latino immigrant community that does not want to integrate and could really care less about American culture, or American national identity.

That is a problem which needs to be dealt with. The last thing mainstream American culture needs to be doing right now is encouraging such people in their obstinacy.

This is especially the case given the fact that these immigrant populations are well on their way to outnumbering established native born groups. This fact will only lead them to face less and less pressure to assimilate as time goes on and their overall representation in the general population continues to increase.

You have no stats. All you showed was that you confuse "white people" with "Americans"

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You are lying, as usual.

Again, the African American community is projected to remain more or less stagnant over the course of the next fifty years (growing in proportion from 13% of the overall population to 14%), while the white community is expected to decline (dropping from almost 70% of the overall population to 50% or less), while the Latino and Asian communities basically double in size due immigration (from a little over 10% to more than 20% and from 5% to 8%, respectively).

That is a net loss in proportional representation and relative size for the native population of the United States in relation to immigrant populations. 1% proportional population growth among the African American population does not counter a 20% proportional population decrease among the white population.



This is simple mathematics, Sangha. Do try to keep up.

So far, he has yet to acknowledge his mistake so I can only assume that he stands by it

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Clearly, because I never made a "mistake" in the first place. You have simply completely failed to understand my argument. :roll:

That would require honesty on your part

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Oh! The irony! :lamo

cpwill said:

Seems as simple as the question:

GA Thomas: do you conflate "native born Americans" with "whites", or when you define "American" , do you mean the standard that you have already described of speaking the language, taking part in the culture, holding to our founding values, etc?

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Absolutely not.

As Sangha seems to have so conveniently forgotten here (as he often does :roll: ), I actually praised the Asian American population for their approach to immigration and assimilation around the thirty page mark of this very thread.

Gathomas88 said:

I'm not saying that they all are. There are plenty of hard working immigrants in this country who seem to legitimately understand how to become productive members of our society.

Asian Americans, for instance; seem to "get" the idea behind assimilation remarkably well on average. They have prospered (some times, even to a greater extent than native born Americans) as such.

However, you cannot really deny that there are some immigrant populations out there which seem to struggle with this concept, and that this can be a legitimate problem.

The last thing we need to be doing right now is blatantly encouraging them to persist in such behavior.

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Sangha is simply engaging in his usual dishonesty and throwing out race baiting red herrings.

Dr. Chuckles said:

As I already pointed out, who's performing the song is rather inconsequential to what people perceive as it's message. But thanks for injecting more needless accusations of bigotry, and one that seems wholly disconnected from the discussion.

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i'm here for ya DC

sangha said:

Either way, he's wrong. After all, plenty of non-white immigrants speak the language take part in the culture and hold to our values, but I don't expect you to admit the obvious implication of Gath trying to show that the native born population is decreasing because the # of white people who died was greater than the # of white people who were born.

That would require honesty on your part

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Dunno, Sangha. Mr. Thomas' source link was from Russia - so he must be right. Would Russian Journalists lie? :mrgreen: And besides, native populations are always...wait...native populations? Cowabunga, Dude! :shock: That some strong implication there.

Dr. Chuckles said:

The irony of telling people they're dumb for discussing a topic as you discuss a topic: fact is very few people are actually discussing coke or the commercial here. It's more a discussing about immigration

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Discuss whatever you want... I was just pointing out that people flock to these topics at the beck and call of the media and it's part of their viral marketing.

Of course it's about immigration, but it's not like coke invented that topic either. They're just using it to make money, which you're helping them to do. Instead of talking about immigration, now people will be talking about it with Coke™ attached to it. :shrug:

Like I said, they were smart.

Removable Mind said:

Dunno, Sangha. Mr. Thomas' source link was from Russia - so he must be right. Would Russian Journalists lie? :mrgreen: And besides, native populations are always...wait...native populations? Cowabunga, Dude! :shock: That some strong implication there.

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Washington Post - Whites’ deaths outnumber births for first time

:roll:

opendebate said:

i'm here for ya DC

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now only if you made sense or had something of worth to add we could have an interesting discussion. But, alas, simply braying accusations of bigotry seems so trite and uninteresting

Northern Light said:

Of course it's about immigration, but it's not like coke invented that topic either. They're just using it to make money, which you're helping them to do. Instead of talking about immigration, now people will be talking about it with Coke™ attached to it. :shrug:

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So you're just ignoring the fact that most people, and anyone seemingly discussing the topic in-depth here, are not even mentioning coke or the commercial?

I guess what ever it takes to shine that halo and convince yourself that "you're a special little snowflake"

Gathomas88 said:

Washington Post - Whites’ deaths outnumber births for first time

:roll:

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I knew you'd hit me with another link. Just need to keep you on the up and up. Those krawzie Russians might say anything.

Okay, welp...I'm sure Sangha will either reply to this significant change of source...or not.

So you still think there's a decline in the American population - over all? I mean even if all of the whites die out...there'll still be a lot of folks here, ya know.

I know you've voiced your woes about what'll happen if we have negative birth rates many times before. That's why you gotta ta get bizzzieeee Mr. Thomas! Big Love...remember? Hey, it ain't legal, but what the hell, America is counting on ya.

Dr. Chuckles said:

So you're just ignoring the fact that most people, and anyone seemingly discussing the topic in-depth here, are not even mentioning coke or the commercial?

I guess what ever it takes to shine that halo and convince yourself that "you're a special little snowflake"

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Give it a rest. I can contribute to any topic in any way I like, I don't have to sink into the immigration debate every single time, okay?

You wouldn't even be talking about this if it weren't for coke. Don't get so uptight because this debate got pegged for what it is.

Gathomas88 said:

I'm sorry, but the simple fact of the matter here is that these kinds of problems were virtually unheard of with previous waves of immigrants to this country.

Hell! They are unheard for current waves of non-Hispanic immigrants.

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STRATFOR delves into this, on occasion, to point out the geographic background behind the differences that hallmark the Latino immigration:

...Borderlands and the Geopolitics of Immigration
Underlying this political process was a geopolitical one. Immigration in any country is destabilizing. Immigrants have destabilized the United States ever since the Scots-Irish changed American culture, taking political power and frightening prior settlers. The same immigrants were indispensable to economic growth. Social and cultural instability proved a low price to pay for the acquisition of new labor.

That equation ultimately also works in the case of Mexican migrants, but there is a fundamental difference. When the Irish or the Poles or the South Asians came to the United States, they were physically isolated from their homelands. The Irish might have wanted Roman Catholic schools, but in the end, they had no choice but to assimilate into the dominant culture. The retention of cultural hangovers did not retard basic cultural assimilation, given that they were far from home and surrounded by other, very different, groups.

This is the case for Mexican-Americans in Chicago or Alaska, whether citizens, permanent residents or illegal immigrants. In such locales, they form a substantial but ultimately isolated group, surrounded by other, larger groups and generally integrated into the society and economy. Success requires that subsequent generations follow the path of prior immigrants and integrate. This is not the case, however, for Mexicans moving into the borderlands conquered by the United States just as it is not the case in other borderlands around the world. Immigrant populations in this region are not physically separated from their homeland, but rather can be seen as culturally extending their homeland northward -- in this case not into alien territory, but into historically Mexican lands.

This is no different from what takes place in borderlands the world over. The political border moves because of war. Members of an alien population suddenly become citizens of a new country. Sometimes, massive waves of immigrants from the group that originally controlled the territory politically move there, undertaking new citizenship or refusing to do so. The cultural status of the borderland shifts between waves of ethnic cleansing and population movement. Politics and economics mix, sometimes peacefully and sometimes explosively.

The Mexican-American War established the political boundary between the two countries. Economic forces on both sides of the border have encouraged both legal and illegal immigration north into the borderland -- the area occupied by the United States. The cultural character of the borderland is shifting as the economic and demographic process accelerates. The political border stays where it is while the cultural border moves northward....

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And so, therefore...

...The problem is that Mexicans are not seen in the traditional context of immigration to the United States. As I have said, some see them as extending their homeland into the United States, rather than as leaving their homeland and coming to the United States. Moreover, by treating illegal immigration as an acceptable mode of immigration, a sense of helplessness is created, a feeling that the prior order of society was being profoundly and illegally changed. And finally, when those who express these concerns are demonized, they become radicalized. The tension between Washington and Arizona -- between those who benefit from the migration and those who don't -- and the tension between Mexican-Americans who are legal residents and citizens of the United States and support illegal immigration and non-Mexicans who oppose illegal immigration creates a potentially explosive situation.

Centuries ago, Scots moved to Northern Ireland after the English conquered it. The question of Northern Ireland, a borderland, was never quite settled. Similarly, Albanians moved to now-independent Kosovo, where tensions remain high. The world is filled with borderlands where political and cultural borders don't coincide and where one group wants to change the political border that another group sees as sacred....

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Northern Light said:

Give it a rest. I can contribute to any topic in any way I like, I don't have to sink into the immigration debate every single time, okay?

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No one said you couldn't.

You wouldn't even be talking about this if it weren't for coke. Don't get so uptight because this debate got pegged for what it is.

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Yeah, the coke commercial initiated the discussion, no one denied that and that wasn't your original complaint. Your original complaint was people discussing the commercial and coke, which is not really being done here

Removable Mind said:

I knew you'd hit me with another link. Just need to keep you on the up and up. Those krawzie Russians might say anything.

Okay, welp...I'm sure Sangha will either reply to this significant change of source...or not.

So you still think there's a decline in the American population - over all? I mean even if all of the whites die out...there'll still be a lot of folks here, ya know.

I know you've voiced your woes about what'll happen if we have negative birth rates many times before. That's why you gotta ta get bizzzieeee Mr. Thomas! Big Love...remember? Hey, it ain't legal, but what the hell, America is counting on ya.

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Eh. As I said before, in the long run, it might not even be all that bad a thing if the current "white culture" dies out or diminishes to the point of irrelevancy. It's kind of a train wreck, in case you haven't noticed, and the Latino community actually does tend to carry some cultural values that I'm rather fond of (Catholicism, family, the value of hard work, etca).

Besides, mang, Latin women are muy caliente! :lol:

That being said, however; one cannot really deny the nature of what is happening here, or the latent idiocy of the "multicultural" ideology being espoused by many posters in this thread.

The simple fact of the matter is that the United States' native culture of the last two centuries is in decline for the first time in its history. As such, it is now vulnerable to having its dominance threatened by the arrival of culturally alien immigrant groups en masse.

That is exactly what we are now experiencing, and have experienced for the last couple of decades. Historically speaking, it also tends to be a truism to say that cultural clashes and demographic displacement of this nature tends to be less than beneficial for the stability and social wellbeing of the nations in which they occur.

Regardless of whether the change turns out to be for the best in the long run or not, I do believe that any potential decline of the United State's existing culture will pose significant problems over the course of the coming century if current trends continue.

Dr. Chuckles said:

Yeah, the coke commercial initiated the discussion, no one denied that and that wasn't your original complaint. Your original complaint was people discussing the commercial and coke, which is not really being done here

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It doesn't matter if you actually mention them or not. This discussion is under their banner. Same with the facebook discussions, and twitter discussions. That's my point.

The conflict is profitable for them which is why I don't want to partake in it other to point out their involvement so that others may be aware.

Northern Light said:

It doesn't matter if you actually mention them or not. This discussion is under their banner. Same with the facebook discussions, and twitter discussions. That's my point.

The conflict is profitable for them which is why I don't want to partake in it other to point out their involvement so that others may be aware.

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again, if the complaint is that people are participating in a discussion simply initiated by coke, then you're really not "boycotting" anything by participating in that discussion. Even if your participation is ironically limited to you cooing about how you're above participating in it

Gathomas88 said:

Eh. As I said before, in the long run, it might not even be all that bad a thing if the current "white culture" dies out or diminishes to the point of irrelevancy. It's kind of a train wreck, in case you haven't noticed, and the Latino community actually does tend to carry some cultural values that I'm rather fond of (Catholicism, family, the value of hard work, etca).

That being said, however; one cannot really deny the nature of what is happening here, or the latent idiocy of "multicultural" ideology.

The simple fact of the matter is that the United States' native culture of the last two centuries is in decline for the first time in its history. As such, it is now vulnerable to having its dominance threatened by the arrival of culturally alien immigrant groups en masse.

That is exactly what we are currently experiencing, and have experienced for the last couple of decades. Historically speaking, it also tends to be a truism to say that cultural clashes and demographic displacement of this nature tends to be less than beneficial for the stability and social wellbeing of the nations in which they occur.

Regardless of whether the change turns out to be for the best in the long run or not, I do believe that the decline of the United State's existing culture will pose significant problems over the course of the coming century if current trends continue.

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There's one thing that I do know. And as time goes by the more I know...the more I know that I don't know.

BUT: You and I and most everybody else...completely powerless in this matter. The world is gonna live until it dies...just like the rest of us. The consequences of humanity's wild and crazy doings...will create whatever challenges all the following generations may be faced with. They'll deal and cope with those challenges or they won't. It's just evolutionary growing pains. When everything hurts hard enough ...long enough, maybe humanity will get their act together...whatever that is.

Removable Mind said:

BUT: You and I and most everybody else...completely powerless in this matter.

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No, govt has a pretty big influence over immigration policy

Removable Mind said:

There's one thing that I do know. And as time goes by the more I know...the more I know that I don't know.

BUT: You and I and most everybody else...completely powerless in this matter. The world is gonna live until it dies...just like the rest of us. The consequences of humanity's wild and crazy doings...will create whatever challenges all the following generations may be faced with. They'll deal and cope with those challenges or they won't. It's just evolutionary growing pains. When everything hurts hard enough ...long enough, maybe humanity will get their act together...whatever that is.

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True. In my defense, however; I would point out that my original reason for posting in this thread revolved simply around expressing my opposition to the ideological message put forward by the Coca-Cola commercial in the OP.

That is something I actually can have some degree of control over. :lol:

The same goes for immigration policy.

Dr. Chuckles said:

No, govt has a pretty big influence over immigration policy

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Sorry, Chuck...you missed the thingamabob of what Mr. Thomas and I were yackin about. But thanks for your input anyway. It's always appreciated.

Gathomas88 said:

True. In my defense, however; I would point out that my original reason for posting in this thread revolved simply around expressing my opposition to the ideological message put forward by the Coca-Cola commercial in the OP.

That is something I actually can have some degree of control over. :lol:

The same goes for immigration policy.

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:shock: Bageebus, Mr. Thomas! Did you recently become Emperor of the U.S.? I had no idea you have that kind of power.

Well, I've voiced my personal opinion about multiculturalism in the U.S. early in this thread I believe that..."it can't work". But that's neither here or there. What I think..and the bottom line value of what I think - wouldn't cover the bottom of a 5 cent candy bag.

But you da man with the power. So tear'em up.

Sababa said:

What I don't understand is why people think that just because you use another language in life that you don't know English. Why is it that singing this song in different languages is some how a problem for anyone? The commercial showed what America looks like in the vast majority of the communities in this country, what is wrong with that?

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What does any of that have to do with Coca Cola?

Removable Mind said:

:shock: Bageebus, Mr. Thomas! Did you recently become Emperor of the U.S.? I had no idea you have that kind of power.

Well, I've voiced my personal opinion about multiculturalism in the U.S. early in this thread I believe that..."it can't work". But that's neither here or there. What I think..and the bottom line value of what I think - wouldn't cover the bottom of a 5 cent candy bag.

But you da man with the power. So tear'em up.

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I think what he meant is he can decide to not buy Coca Cola products.

Personally I think companies engaging in political statements is a mistake. Of a more obvious example are businesses that will put political candidates' signs in their window. If I don't support that candidate I won't shop there as my business indirectly supports that candidate. Another example is I won't stop at a Cracker Barrel after they threw piles of money into Republican Gerrymandering years ago.

I'm surprised some company hasn't gone partisan in their ads - figuring they might get 40% of the market given how strong partisan loyalties are.