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Should Amanda Knox Be Extradited to Prison in Italy?

Should Amanda Knox Be Extradited to Prison in Italy?

  • Yes, in accordance with the US-Italy extradition treaty.

    Votes: 18 33.3%

  • Yes, she should be imprisoned somewhere, but maybe in the US.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No, Americans shouldn't be extradited to foreign nations even if they're guilty.

    Votes: 6 11.1%

  • No, she isn't guilty.

    Votes: 30 55.6%
  • Total voters
    54
NoC_T said:
I love all the Europe vs America debates. They're so productive. :lol:
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The last PRODUCTIVE Europe vs. America debate happened around 1812.
 
mmorado said:
From what I have seen, she should NOT be sent back. for one, double jeopardy. and 2.. from what I have seen and read about the trial, there was not enough evidence for a conviction. Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it someone other guys handprint and dna all over the place where the murder took place?
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Yes and he's in jail. People who suspect her give much attention to her changing testimony. They ignore how often the prosecutions hypothetical scenario has changed. When they couldn't get the satanic group sex game scenario to fit they changed to Amanda and Solletico stabbing her over an unflushed toilet and watching as Guede raped the corpse.
 
Tigger said:
The last PRODUCTIVE Europe vs. America debate happened around 1812.
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I actually agree to an extent. Certainly, there's been no need of it since.

You're a strange guy, Tigger. I sometimes wonder if I might not be more pro-American than you are, being far less critical of it. You're an odd fusion of patriot and anti-American.
 
NoC_T said:
I actually agree to an extent. Certainly, there's been no need of it since.
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You do realize that debate was carried out with firearms and included the burning of Washington DC, correct?

NoC_T said:
You're a strange guy, Tigger. I sometimes wonder if I might not be more pro-American than you are, being far less critical of it. You're an odd fusion of patriot and anti-American.
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I am neither. I am someone who has a particular vision for what he believes was, and should continue to be the foundation of this nation. Unfortuantely that ideal was destroyed a century and a half ago and has continued to be eroded away over that period of time. I would prefer to see the US return to that vision, and without it I see little to no value in this nation.
 
Tigger said:
You do realize that debate was carried out with firearms and included the burning of Washington DC, correct?
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I do. I'm not sure what the point is.

I am neither. I am someone who has a particular vision for what he believes was, and should continue to be the foundation of this nation. Unfortuantely that ideal was destroyed a century and a half ago and has continued to be eroded away over that period of time. I would prefer to see the US return to that vision, and without it I see little to no value in this nation.
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I guess you know how I'll respond to this, but there's no turning the clock back. Development is a bonus, not a disgrace. Ideology is malleable and reflects the state of the world as it stands, for better and worse. Even were it possible to regress, we'd sustain similar devolution across the board. Values can't exist in a vacuum.
 
NoC_T said:
I guess you know how I'll respond to this, but there's no turning the clock back. Development is a bonus, not a disgrace. Ideology is malleable and reflects the state of the world as it stands, for better and worse. Even were it possible to regress, we'd sustain similar devolution across the board. Values can't exist in a vacuum.
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Advancement is only a bonus IF it is maintained within the proper limits of society or if society can be trained to use it within those proper limits. Better to devolve across the board than to throw away our values for computers, cars, and cell phones.

Ad_Captandum said:
(Pretty sure we won that one.) How's the new White House? Nicer than the one we burnt down? Shame about all of your founding fathers' heirlooms, though.
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No, not really. You folks (funny hearing a Scotsman willingly align himself with the English) did a good job of making things miserable for a while but if you'd actually WON you'd be hearing a lot more of "God Save the Queen" in Sochi, Russia starting the end of this week than that "Star Spangled Banner" that you will be hearing. Kind of apropo, considering that poem was written during that conflict. The Founders hold only partial value in my mind. Great ideas but massive naivite and no concept of long-term thinking.
 
Tigger said:
Advancement is only a bonus IF it is maintained within the proper limits of society or if society can be trained to use it within those proper limits. Better to devolve across the board than to throw away our values for computers, cars, and cell phones.
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Technological advance was inevitable from the moment simians became self-aware. We're a curious and inventive species. That's our nature. Even during those times you hearken back to, there was no dismissal of technology, being in part born of it. Besides, technology doesn't cater to the conception of values. Merely their dissemination. In the ancient world, word of mouth was adequate even where illiteracy was the norm. Would you prefer the life of an impoverished rustic, living at subsistence level or less? Such values as you cherish from that time were largely counter-productive and only set the stage for a compensatory reaction once conditions improved.
 
NoC_T said:
Technological advance was inevitable from the moment simians became self-aware. We're a curious and inventive species. That's our nature.
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Yes, that advancement is inevitable. It was, is, and always will be a test of whether we are willing to live as we SHOULD or as we WANT. We have developed tools, machines, and techniques that make construction easier, even for those who lack significant upper body strength. That still doesn't mean it is an appropriate profession for women. We shouldn't get rid of the backhoe or nailgun simply because they could be used by a woman, but we should restrict the access to such tools to ensure they don't.

NoC_T said:
Would you prefer the life of an impoverished rustic, living at subsistence level or less? Such values as you cherish from that time were largely counter-productive and only set the stage for a compensatory reaction once conditions improved.
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Given the option of a subsistance level life with morals or this life, I'll take subsistance. I just don't believe that the things have to be mutually exclusive.
 
Ben K. said:
Yes and he's in jail. People who suspect her give much attention to her changing testimony. They ignore how often the prosecutions hypothetical scenario has changed. When they couldn't get the satanic group sex game scenario to fit they changed to Amanda and Solletico stabbing her over an unflushed toilet and watching as Guede raped the corpse.
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There was on concert of action between Knox, her lover and Guede. That alone should have put a serious flushing on the Prosecution
 
Ad_Captandum said:
(Pretty sure we won that one.)

How's the new White House? Nicer than the one we burnt down? Shame about all of your founding fathers' heirlooms, though.
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Yeah England got America back and Canada did not end up being a satellite of the USA but still remains one of England
 
The German said:
America stricktly refuses most extraditions into any country in the world and Europe refuses most of extraditions into the US

So either way, before specific cases can be debated, a common understanding would have to be found by both regions.

And that is not likely to happen.
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You mean like through a treaty?
 
Tigger said:
Yes, that advancement is inevitable. It was, is, and always will be a test of whether we are willing to live as we SHOULD or as we WANT. We have developed tools, machines, and techniques that make construction easier, even for those who lack significant upper body strength. That still doesn't mean it is an appropriate profession for women. We shouldn't get rid of the backhoe or nailgun simply because they could be used by a woman, but we should restrict the access to such tools to ensure they don't.
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You have to accept that there's no consensus or be destined for disappointment. It will never exist while individuals remain unique. Agree to disagree about ineligibility on the basis of gender. I'm steadfastly opposed to providing the extremist, misandrist, whackjob fringe (read as 'feminazis') with an actual excuse to cry victim.

Given the option of a subsistance level life with morals or this life, I'll take subsistance. I just don't believe that the things have to be mutually exclusive.
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Economics and ideology develop in tandem. The process is symbiotic.
 
NoC_T said:
You have to accept that there's no consensus or be destined for disappointment. It will never exist while individuals remain unique. Agree to disagree about ineligibility on the basis of gender. I'm steadfastly opposed to providing the extremist, misandrist, whackjob fringe (read as 'feminazis') with an actual excuse to cry victim.
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There is no "concensus" because this society has never REQUIRED there be a concensus. The Founding Fathers naively thought there WAS concensus on Morals or Values. They have to have, or they would have written them into the Constitution. If not, their even greater FOOLS than I believe them to be. Concensus is created by saying "Here are the Rules. If you don't like them, there's the door."

I'm more than happy to give the Feminists something to cry about, though it wouldn't be through words.

NoC_T said:
Economics and ideology develop in tandem. The process is symbiotic.
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Economics develops. Ideology remains the same. If it doesn't, then it isn't an Ideology, it's just hogwash that someone spouts to cover their asses.
 
Tigger said:
There is no "concensus" because this society has never REQUIRED there be a concensus. The Founding Fathers naively thought there WAS concensus on Morals or Values. They have to have, or they would have written them into the Constitution. If not, their even greater FOOLS than I believe them to be. Concensus is created by saying "Here are the Rules. If you don't like them, there's the door."
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They had vision and they were innovative. You can't take that away from them. Most of the ideals they championed were reactions to the yoke of foreign oppression recently vanquished. The collective sentiments of an oppressed people. What you're describing is Fascism, but that's not on the cards for the moment.

I'm more than happy to give the Feminists something to cry about, though it wouldn't be through words.
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Do that and you only legitimise their hitherto unfounded claims. One undermines extremism by denying its lifeblood. Not providing it sustenance.

Economics develops. Ideology remains the same. If it doesn't, then it isn't an Ideology, it's just hogwash that someone spouts to cover their asses.
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There's no established duration for definition of ideology. Nor is it acknowledged that ideology will be impervious to modification. Since ideology is defined by people, its composition is likewise subject to interpretation and subscription.
 
TurtleDude said:
AD is a media darling-some would say Media Whore. hard to say what his motivations area. The only time you know AD is telling the truth is on matters involving Israel
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Other Legal Experts have substantiated AD's claims such as Julian Ku from Hofstra University in New York.

CNN said:
"They always forget she was convicted first," Julian Ku, who teaches transnational law at Hofstra University in New York, told Agence-France Presse.

If Italy does file an extradition request with the U.S. State Department, Knox will have the right to challenge her transfer to Italy in a U.S. court. "The chances of her winning that are not high because there has to be some very strong claim she'd have to make to block her extradition," Ku added.

"I followed the trial, it was slow but I never got the sense that it was unfair," he said.


Amanda Knox retrial verdict: Six things to know - CNN.com
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NoC_T said:
They had vision and they were innovative. You can't take that away from them. Most of the ideals they championed were reactions to the yoke of foreign oppression recently vanquished. The collective sentiments of an oppressed people. What you're describing is Fascism, but that's not in the cards for the moment.
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They had vision and they were innovative. That much I'll give you. They had some good ideas, but they failed to ensure that the foundation for those ideas (the morals and values of the day) could not be undermined in the future. That makes them either naive or stupid.

What I'm describing IS much closer to Fascism, but considering the quality of humanity at this time, I don't see any other option.

NoC_T said:
Do that and you only legitimise their hitherto unfounded claims. One undermines extremism by denying its lifeblood. Not providing it sustenance.
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What unfounded claims?.... that real Men understand what a woman's place is and expect her to remain in it? That's not unfounded by any stretch of hte imagination. One destroys extremism by either forcing people to change or removing those people from the popullation permanently (one way or another).

NoC_T said:
There's no established duration for definition of ideology. Nor is it acknowledged that ideology will be impervious to modification. Since ideology is defined by people, its composition is likewise subject to interpretation and subscription.
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There is most definitely a definition for the duration of ideology..... PERMANENT. If it changes it's no longer that ideology.
 
Tigger said:
They had vision and they were innovative. That much I'll give you. They had some good ideas, but they failed to ensure that the foundation for those ideas (the morals and values of the day) could not be undermined in the future. That makes them either naive or stupid.

What I'm describing IS much closer to Fascism, but considering the quality of humanity at this time, I don't see any other option.
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In fairness, not one of us has a crystal ball. Some of the issues you find to be contentious couldn't have existed back then. Considering what they were up against, the scale of what they were trying to achieve and the fact that in certain areas they were groping blindly in the dark, they did a remarkable job.

Humanity is always quality. Only God is perfect.

What unfounded claims?.... that real Men understand what a woman's place is and expect her to remain in it? That's not unfounded by any stretch of hte imagination. One destroys extremism by either forcing people to change or removing those people from the popullation permanently (one way or another).
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I was referring to their unfounded claims. Basically that all women are victims and all men are brutal oppressors who revel in an extinct patriarchy. Having embarked upon your course, they'd transition from a puerile and infantile misandrist fringe to being completely vindicated, overnight. You'd not only suddenly prove them right but bring them out of their caves into the bright light of mainstream appeal.

Neither women nor men have a 'place'. You can't simply silence millions of people, brah. That's psycho.

There is most definitely a definition for the duration of ideology..... PERMANENT. If it changes it's no longer that ideology.
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Ideology only refers to subscribed ideals and concepts. Were you correct, the very first example of ideology to have ever existed on this earth would be the only one the world has ever lived by.
 
NoC_T said:
In fairness, not one of us has a crystal ball. Some of the issues you find to be contentious couldn't have existed back then. Considering what they were up against, the scale of what they were trying to achieve and the fact that in certain areas they were groping blindly in the dark, they did a remarkable job.
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They did a good job with what they had, but they were extremely naive in some very basic ways.

NoC_T said:
Humanity is always quality. Only God is perfect.
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Only the Gods are perfect but this version of humanity has little to nothing of value left in it. Let's hope the next one does better.

NoC_T said:
I was referring to their unfounded claims. Basically that all women are victims and all men are brutal oppressors who revel in an extinct patriarchy. Having embarked upon your course, they'd transition from a puerile and infantile misandrist fringe to being completely vindicated, overnight. You'd not only suddenly prove them right but bring them out of their caves into the bright light of mainstream appeal.
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Good. Bring them out of the woodwork to either be reeducated or done away with. Best idea I've heard yet.

NoC_T said:
Neither women nor men have a 'place'. You can't simply silence millions of people, brah. That's psycho.
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Men and women each most definitely have a "place" in the world and silencing millions has been done before. You would not enjoy my view of what this country should be after a New Revolution.

NoC_T said:
Ideology only refers to subscribed ideals and concepts. Were you correct, the very first example of ideology to have ever existed on this earth would be the only one the world has ever lived by.
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No. The first ideology was the only CORRECT ideology, and it still is. Everything else afterwards is a bastardization of it.
 
Tigger said:
They did a good job with what they had, but they were extremely naive in some very basic ways.
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I think that so many of their ideas hadn't been tested for so long, it could appear that way. If they made mistakes, it's not to be wondered at. However, I don't believe they erred in their most basic tenets. Concepts like justice and freedom are always laudable to the majority. I don't think anyone ever laboured beneath the delusion that people aren't fallible.

Only the Gods are perfect but this version of humanity has little to nothing of value left in it. Let's hope the next one does better.
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It's all a learning curve. People need time.

Good. Bring them out of the woodwork to either be reeducated or done away with. Best idea I've heard yet.
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lulz I'm gonna assume you're not entirely serious. If you are, you haven't thought it through.

Men and women each most definitely have a "place" in the world and silencing millions has been done before. You would not enjoy my view of what this country should be after a New Revolution.
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I'm getting that. But despots are always brought low. Look at Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot. Stalin was a notable exception. Mugabe's next. You can't crush the human spirit, only besiege it. Sooner or later, people start pushing back. Hasn't the world suffered enough butchery?

No. The first ideology was the only CORRECT ideology, and it still is. Everything else afterwards is a bastardization of it.
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As to that, I can't comment, being unfamiliar with the details of Naqadic culture. I do know we've seen every conceivable format in the interim. This alone speaks to ideology's evolution.
 
NoC_T said:
I think that so many of their ideas hadn't been tested for so long, it could appear that way. If they made mistakes, it's not to be wondered at. However, I don't believe they erred in their most basic tenets. Concepts like justice and freedom are always laudable to the majority. I don't think anyone ever laboured beneath the delusion that people aren't fallible.
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People are always fallible. They tried their best, it just wasn't good enough. It lasted for 80-90 years and that's probably longer than it had any right to.

NoC_T said:
It's all a learning curve. People need time.
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Then why are people moving further away from the proper way of doing things rather than towards it.

NoC_T said:
lulz I'm gonna assume you're not entirely serious. If you are, you haven't thought it through.
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I don't have a sense of humor and I don't make jokes or jests.

NoC_T said:
I'm getting that. But despots are always brought low. Look at Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot. Stalin was a notable exception. Mugabe's next. You can't crush the human spirit, only besiege it. Sooner or later, people start pushing back. Hasn't the world suffered enough butchery?
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If the world had suffered enough the problems would be fixed. They aren't. I'll let you draw the conclusions from there.

NoC_T said:
As to that, I can't comment, being unfamiliar with the details of Naqadic culture. I do know we've seen every conceivable format in the interim. This alone speaks to ideology's evolution.
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We've seen most of them, anyway. I would suggest it's a de-evolution.
 
Tigger said:
People are always fallible. They tried their best, it just wasn't good enough. It lasted for 80-90 years and that's probably longer than it had any right to.

Then why are people moving further away from the proper way of doing things rather than towards it.
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Evidently, they disagree with your definitions as is their right to do so.

I don't have a sense of humor and I don't make jokes or jests.
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You clearly never saw Groundhog Day. I defy anyone to sit through that without howling.

If the world had suffered enough the problems would be fixed. They aren't. I'll let you draw the conclusions from there.
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The one that most readily occurs is that they are 'being' fixed. There's no road map.

We've seen most of them, anyway. I would suggest it's a de-evolution.
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That's not really possible, since in order to devolve, we'd have to have begun with ideological perfection which would necessitate no historical timeline or resistance. This is nonsensical.
 
NoC_T said:
Evidently, they disagree with your definitions as is their right to do so.
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They can disagree with ME all they want. It's the Gods definition that they will have to deal with eventually.

NoC_T said:
You clearly never saw Groundhog Day. I defy anyone to sit through that without howling.
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Nope. I don't watch comedies. they're a waste of time.

NoC_T said:
The one that most readily occurs is that they are 'being' fixed. There's no road map.
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Whereas I draw the opposite conclusion.... that nobody cares to try and fix them.

NoC_T said:
That's not really possible, since in order to devolve, we'd have to have begun with ideological perfection which would necessitate no historical timeline or resistance. This is nonsensical.
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We did start with ideological perfection and then, because it wasn't fun or pleasant enough for everyone, we ran away from it.
 
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