• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do you support school choice?

Do you support school choice?


  • Total voters
    88
The government should not be involved in education in the first place. Saying that, anything that helps to eliminate the government monopoly on education is at least worth consideration.
 
Well, if all the kids bail, what are they transporting?

They don't all bail. Public schools still have to pay for the costs of transporting those who stay but with a smaller pool of money. That means something will have to be cut from the general education budget that could have gone toward learning. Same goes with such things as heating a building. You still have to heat the building but with less money. They don't stop heating if the funds are depleted but pull from something that could have gone toward learning.
 
The decrease in students will decrease much of those ancillary costs.

Only some of the costs and it would take years to make the required changes. Also the public schools would lose state and federal matching funds that are paid to school districts on a per-student basis.
 
I think it is inevitable that the price of private schools will increase with widespread availability of vouchers because it will increase demand and raise the amount many people will be willing to the pay (voucher value plus what they can afford compared to what they can afford only without vouchers).

The idea is that it will increase competition. However, it's government money, and thus no effort money, that will only cause prices to increase regardless of any increase in competition it might cause either directly or indirectly.
 
Public school funds would be depleted because public schools have many fixed costs for building maintenance and utilities, non-teaching staffing, administration etc. It would take several years of reduced enrollment and a lot of process to lay off the unneeded employees and sell the under used and unused properties. Public schools also have mandates to provide special education and disability access for the students that need it, and those students are unlikely to be attractive to private schools since many of them would bring down the test scores and/or cost more to accommodate and educate.
What I find troubling over several pages full of your posts is your lack of concern for the poor quality of education students are receiving in many classrooms across this country. You have all kinds of excuses for why you are against vouchers but NONE of them focus on the child. For your information, the beauty of vouchers has opened the door for schools to open up that deal specifically with learning disabilities and those with physical disabilities. They are actually saving Departments of Education a whole lot of money. For example, if a child has a physical disability, the school must provide means for that child to get to his classes. If the school has stairs, the school must install an elevator. It must also provide an aid that can help the child when he needs to use the restroom and possibly aid in helping with lunch. These things costs school districts/taxpayers a good amount of money. If the child has a learning disability, the school must provide an aid to assist the child in completing his work. Another expense that does not come cheap. Charter schools, however, that specialize in disability have facilities that are designed to accommodate these students. There are staff members on hand to aid these students in things like using the restroom to cafeteria that are provided through the tuition. They also have high tech computer labs to assist the student in completing his/her work without having to battle with their physical impairments which a lot of school districts can not afford.

There's a big blowout occurring across this country how school districts have too dang many un-needed administrators collecting a fine wage and benefits. I know I am living in such a district. I also know there are such things as bad teachers and because of a thing called tenure and the teacher's union it takes a boatload of money and two years of litigation to get one removed.

Now my state "OHIO" is probably the leader in breaking ground on vouchers as we have extended their use far beyond any other state and we have seen nothing but success from the program. We have seen graduation rates increased which means fewer children became statistics. We have scholarship programs for the disabled. We have scholarship programs those kids living in poor performing school districts to have an opportunity to attend a district that is providing excellence. Vouchers can be used to attend another public school if they have agreed to be part of the program. All scholarships to charter and public schools are handled through the Ohio Department of Education. The program is truly about the children NOT about the teachers, the administrators, or the unions.
 
What I find troubling over several pages full of your posts is your lack of concern for the poor quality of education students are receiving in many classrooms across this country. You have all kinds of excuses for why you are against vouchers but NONE of them focus on the child. For your information, the beauty of vouchers has opened the door for schools to open up that deal specifically with learning disabilities and those with physical disabilities. They are actually saving Departments of Education a whole lot of money. For example, if a child has a physical disability, the school must provide means for that child to get to his classes. If the school has stairs, the school must install an elevator. It must also provide an aid that can help the child when he needs to use the restroom and possibly aid in helping with lunch. These things costs school districts/taxpayers a good amount of money. If the child has a learning disability, the school must provide an aid to assist the child in completing his work. Another expense that does not come cheap. Charter schools, however, that specialize in disability have facilities that are designed to accommodate these students. There are staff members on hand to aid these students in things like using the restroom to cafeteria that are provided through the tuition. They also have high tech computer labs to assist the student in completing his/her work without having to battle with their physical impairments which a lot of school districts can not afford.

There's a big blowout occurring across this country how school districts have too dang many un-needed administrators collecting a fine wage and benefits. I know I am living in such a district. I also know there are such things as bad teachers and because of a thing called tenure and the teacher's union it takes a boatload of money and two years of litigation to get one removed.

Now my state "OHIO" is probably the leader in breaking ground on vouchers as we have extended their use far beyond any other state and we have seen nothing but success from the program. We have seen graduation rates increased which means fewer children became statistics. We have scholarship programs for the disabled. We have scholarship programs those kids living in poor performing school districts to have an opportunity to attend a district that is providing excellence. Vouchers can be used to attend another public school if they have agreed to be part of the program. All scholarships to charter and public schools are handled through the Ohio Department of Education. The program is truly about the children NOT about the teachers, the administrators, or the unions.

Very well stated, Vesper! :thumbs: I only had one example of a student who transferred to a charter school, but what I saw was enough to convince me that they're a great thing for students who are a little above average. He was bored, until he transferred to a charter school, where he was apparently challenged scholastically, and it made a huge difference in his attitude toward learning. He actually liked going to school, and became much happier, according to his mom.

Greetings, Vesper. :2wave:
 
Very well stated, Vesper! :thumbs: I only had one example of a student who transferred to a charter school, but what I saw was enough to convince me that they're a great thing for students who are a little above average. He was bored, until he transferred to a charter school, where he was apparently challenged scholastically, and it made a huge difference in his attitude toward learning. He actually liked going to school, and became much happier, according to his mom.

Greetings, Vesper. :2wave:
Hi Polgara. I have a nephew who has a disability. He is a very bright young man but due to his disability it takes him much longer to complete a task. He also wears braces and walks with a walker. When he is having a bad day he needs his wheelchair. He could keep up while he was in elementary school confined to one room, but when he was faced with middle school and changing classes, it became an issue for him. Just getting from one class to the next became physically overtaxing. Thanks to Ohio's school voucher program he can now attend a school that accommodates his needs. Cheers!
 
Hi Polgara. I have a nephew who has a disability. He is a very bright young man but due to his disability it takes him much longer to complete a task. He also wears braces and walks with a walker. When he is having a bad day he needs his wheelchair. He could keep up while he was in elementary school confined to one room, but when he was faced with middle school and changing classes, it became an issue for him. Just getting from one class to the next became physically overtaxing. Thanks to Ohio's school voucher program he can now attend a school that accommodates his needs. Cheers!

So it is apparently a good solution for both...one who needed more stimulus, and one who had physical limitations! Who wouldn't approve of that? Win-Win! Good for Ohio!
 
In most of RED America, there is only ONE school system to choose, the one in their town .
 
So it is apparently a good solution for both...one who needed more stimulus, and one who had physical limitations! Who wouldn't approve of that? Win-Win! Good for Ohio!
Yes good for Ohio. But other states should look at the success we have had so they too can adopt some of the same programs or better yet improve on them.
 
Yes good for Ohio. But other states should look at the success we have had so they too can adopt some of the same programs or better yet improve on them.

Do you know how this is being handled in other states? As I stated in my post, I only knew of the one instance because it was the son of a friend of mine. What happens to physically limited children where they don't have these options?
 
Do you know how this is being handled in other states? As I stated in my post, I only knew of the one instance because it was the son of a friend of mine. What happens to physically limited children where they don't have these options?

Polgara, each state has their own set of "rules". Many allow charters but few allow vouchers. And some don't allow either. In some states it would be fair to state if you have a child that is disabled whether that be physically or a learning disability you are up a creek without a paddle.
 
Polgara, each state has their own set of "rules". Many allow charters but few allow vouchers. And some don't allow either. In some states it would be fair to state if you have a child that is disabled whether that be physically or a learning disability you are up a creek without a paddle.

Schools are supposed to be places for children to learn. It sounds like it isn't all inclusive. Sad...
 
Schools are supposed to be places for children to learn. It sounds like it isn't all inclusive. Sad...
The more states allow the federal government to instill an education program that pretty much promotes a one size fits all agenda then those who don't fit into the "agenda" will be left out. I am so pleased with how Ohio is addressing the needs of ALL children through the voucher program. No longer does a student who happens to live in a district that does not perform well have to put up with it. Nor does the one with a child with learning disabilities or physical disabilities have to be beholden to a bureaucratic system that can not begin to meet their needs. What Ohio has done is put the needs of the child first. May the rest of the states follow in kind.
 
Not necessarily. There are studies that show that some of the "bad" kids are not getting enough challenge and stimulation in public school. They act out because they are bored. When put into private, magnet, or charter schools, their performance improves greatly. There is indeed a portion of the school population (speaking as a country in general) that are suffering from an educational problem. Now if you get a kid that has to keep moving from school to school because they are always acting out, then you most likely have a social problem. But it seems that you would deny those with the education problem a change at a good education.
I was one of those type of "bad" kids but my grades never suffered. Being bored and unchallenged did cause behavioral problems but not academic problems. The answer was to transfer me to an AT (Advanced Teaching) class, which was held in another school in the same district. That whole school wasn't AT, just a few classes, one for each grade from 4-7. There were several such schools scattered around the district. Most districts follow the same route today, providing advanced classes for advanced students. Even our inner-city schools have this program and a whole high-school (out of 10? I think) devoted to it.


So what happens went a large number of families, each with 1-4 children, move into the school district? Are they turned away once those few dozen temporary openings fill up? You also seem to have a false and unspoken assumption that simple because Student A left School 1 for School 2 means that all students want to go to School 2. It can just as easily be that School 1 is a better fit for Student B, who is leaving School 2.
For starters, each large subdivision - where those "large number of families" will live - is required to provide space for an elementary school and sometimes to help build one. The middle schools and high schools in my district were over-crowded for over a decade before we got the money to build a new high-school/middle school complex, and we threw in an elementary school, too, because it was cost-effective. That doesn't mean I want kids from outside the district adding to or creating an over-crowding situation.


As for your two-students-switch-places scenario, I suspect those will be very few and far between. I'm not saying it won't happen but it's hardly a point for your case.


So wait, are you saying that the richer district schools are getting more money? Hmmm...could that possibly be part of the problem?
By definition a "richer" school district gets more money - or you'd better define exactly what you mean by "richer". Our districts vote on the property tax rate for education, so that value will vary from district to district. But I'll say it again, the problems we (all) have with inner-city schools isn't an educational problem or a money problem, it's a social problem. If you can't fix the social problems or at least alleviate the more glaring issues, then children in those areas will never get a good education regardless of what school they attend.
 
Last edited:
I have no problem with a general federal data gathering agency--I don't think you would need one devoted strictly for education--but I would see such data gathering agency as being in the interest of the general welfare. It could provide easy objective and unbiased access to information for those of us who plan to locate to know what the taxes, cost of living, average wages, quality of schools etc. are in a new area. Local school boards could access the data base to see how their schools are stacking up against others, what the tuition is and entrance requirements are for colleges across the country so that local curricula could be designed for students to qualify.

But any federal influence over the education process itself I see as inappropriate federal meddling that should just not exist.
IMO, fed education doesn't need to be it's own department but I do think, because of the specifics of education you'd need an entire office devoted to just gathering and disseminating educational information. I'm also curious how you feel about fed R&D for education. Just like any other institution, education needs investigation to make the system better. You can't count on industry/business to do the basic studies needed for advancement.

I still believe the fed should publish an educational standard whether it's a requirement or not.
 
There is a private school right down the street, A National Blue Ribbon school, that only takes special needs and learning disabled students. They are the kids that private schools "choose not to take." They're doing pretty well. :Shrug:
That's not what I've been talking about. I think you have me confused with someone else in this discussion. But to address your comment in relation to what I have been discussing ...


There's a big difference between "special needs and learning disabled students" (in the non-PC vernacular, "handicapped" or "suffering from a specific disease or other physical condition") and students that have (psychological) behavioral problems and/or no home support to speak of. It's the latter problems I see as the major issue in our inner-city schools and it's a social issue that no school can resolve. Pretending that vouchers "will make things all better" for the majority, or even a large minority, of students is BS.
 
Last edited:
By the way, had you attended a private school...you probably would have spelled orange correctly. Just sayin'.
Assuming it's not just a typo that *some* people use as an attack on intelligence. I'm sure those same people have 60 WPM, 0 error typing skills. :roll:
 
IMO, fed education doesn't need to be it's own department but I do think, because of the specifics of education you'd need an entire office devoted to just gathering and disseminating educational information. I'm also curious how you feel about fed R&D for education. Just like any other institution, education needs investigation to make the system better. You can't count on industry/business to do the basic studies needed for advancement.

I still believe the fed should publish an educational standard whether it's a requirement or not.

With a few exceptions related to national defense and security, the federal government is not the entity that should be doing R&D in anything. The private and state universities, put back on their own and stripped of all federal meddling, are the proper venue for educational research.

And to devote an entire government agency to gathering and dispensing information on education would be a waste of government resources and a waste of taxpayer money. Much better to devote computing power and expertise to collect, collate, and put into usable and dispensable form the information sent to it by all the various educational institutions and other entities. I am pushing for a small, lean, efficient, effective, and honest federal government and that isn't accomplished by creating more and more bureaucracy.
 
What I find troubling over several pages full of your posts is your lack of concern for the poor quality of education students are receiving in many classrooms across this country. You have all kinds of excuses for why you are against vouchers but NONE of them focus on the child. For your information, the beauty of vouchers has opened the door for schools to open up that deal specifically with learning disabilities and those with physical disabilities. They are actually saving Departments of Education a whole lot of money. For example, if a child has a physical disability, the school must provide means for that child to get to his classes. If the school has stairs, the school must install an elevator. It must also provide an aid that can help the child when he needs to use the restroom and possibly aid in helping with lunch. These things costs school districts/taxpayers a good amount of money. If the child has a learning disability, the school must provide an aid to assist the child in completing his work. Another expense that does not come cheap. Charter schools, however, that specialize in disability have facilities that are designed to accommodate these students. There are staff members on hand to aid these students in things like using the restroom to cafeteria that are provided through the tuition. They also have high tech computer labs to assist the student in completing his/her work without having to battle with their physical impairments which a lot of school districts can not afford.

There's a big blowout occurring across this country how school districts have too dang many un-needed administrators collecting a fine wage and benefits. I know I am living in such a district. I also know there are such things as bad teachers and because of a thing called tenure and the teacher's union it takes a boatload of money and two years of litigation to get one removed.

Now my state "OHIO" is probably the leader in breaking ground on vouchers as we have extended their use far beyond any other state and we have seen nothing but success from the program. We have seen graduation rates increased which means fewer children became statistics. We have scholarship programs for the disabled. We have scholarship programs those kids living in poor performing school districts to have an opportunity to attend a district that is providing excellence. Vouchers can be used to attend another public school if they have agreed to be part of the program. All scholarships to charter and public schools are handled through the Ohio Department of Education. The program is truly about the children NOT about the teachers, the administrators, or the unions.


I advocate for making all public schools equally high quality. That should be the priority. I don't believe it is impossible and it has never really been tried in the USA in modern times because the families in prosperous school districts do not want to see the money used to make their schools superior shared with poorer communities. Issues with top heavy administrations and union rules that limit teacher accountability can be addressed without drastic measures such as the voucher scheme. I bet most of the people who expressed concerns about those issues on this forum never attend school board meetings, which are the best place to deal with those problems.

The improvements touted for the voucher scheme will primarily go the least needy students because the greatest benefit will go the families that can use their own funds to supplement the voucher amount, allowing them to upgrade to a more expensive private school, or move from a good suburban school to an even better private one. which will drive up all private school prices. Children from poor families and other families with children considered "undesirable' because they came from families that do not speak English at home, the parents are not well educated, children with learning and behavioral problems and the disabled will be relegated to the remaining public schools which will be saddled with the most difficult students and have their funding decimated by the voucher scheme.

The expenses you mentioned that are related to accommodating disabled students are why it is ridiculous to compare the performance of public schools with all those mandates to private schools which are free to refuse any student for any reason. Public schools are free to establish and fund charter schools serving special needs students without any need for a voucher system.

Bottom line: I would never support an educational plan that primarily benefits prosperous families at the expense of the poor, which is exactly what vouchers will do. Supporting vouchers requires further reducing the quality of education for the most poor and vulnerable students to benefit the more fortunate ones.
 
Very well stated, Vesper! :thumbs: I only had one example of a student who transferred to a charter school, but what I saw was enough to convince me that they're a great thing for students who are a little above average. He was bored, until he transferred to a charter school, where he was apparently challenged scholastically, and it made a huge difference in his attitude toward learning. He actually liked going to school, and became much happier, according to his mom.

Greetings, Vesper. :2wave:

Establishing charter schools does not require vouchers.
 
I advocate for making all public schools equally high quality. That should be the priority. I don't believe it is impossible and it has never really been tried in the USA in modern times because the families in prosperous school districts do not want to see the money used to make their schools superior shared with poorer communities. Issues with top heavy administrations and union rules that limit teacher accountability can be addressed without drastic measures such as the voucher scheme. I bet most of the people who expressed concerns about those issues on this forum never attend school board meetings, which are the best place to deal with those problems.

The improvements touted for the voucher scheme will primarily go the least needy students because the greatest benefit will go the families that can use their own funds to supplement the voucher amount, allowing them to upgrade to a more expensive private school, or move from a good suburban school to an even better private one. which will drive up all private school prices. Children from poor families and other families with children considered "undesirable' because they came from families that do not speak English at home, the parents are not well educated, children with learning and behavioral problems and the disabled will be relegated to the remaining public schools which will be saddled with the most difficult students and have their funding decimated by the voucher scheme.

The expenses you mentioned that are related to accommodating disabled students are why it is ridiculous to compare the performance of public schools with all those mandates to private schools which are free to refuse any student for any reason. Public schools are free to establish and fund charter schools serving special needs students without any need for a voucher system.

Bottom line: I would never support an educational plan that primarily benefits prosperous families at the expense of the poor, which is exactly what vouchers will do. Supporting vouchers requires further reducing the quality of education for the most poor and vulnerable students to benefit the more fortunate ones.

Your fears are absolutely unfounded. In fact Ohio's scholarship programs proves them untrue. We have scholarship programs set up specifically for low income/working class. We have others set up specifically meeting needs due to location of poor performing school districts which often tends to be in poor neighborhoods. We have scholarships specifically for the learning disabled and physically disabled. This isn't about how much a child's parents make but everything to do with what the PARENT believes is best for THEIR child.
 
Your fears are absolutely unfounded. In fact Ohio's scholarship programs proves them untrue. We have scholarship programs set up specifically for low income/working class. We have others set up specifically meeting needs due to location of poor performing school districts which often tends to be in poor neighborhoods. We have scholarships specifically for the learning disabled and physically disabled. This isn't about how much a child's parents make but everything to do with what the PARENT believes is best for THEIR child.

Scholarships and specialized schools and programs for children with specialized needs are fine and are not dependent on the existence of vouchers, they exist in many states without a voucher scheme.

Where do the scholarship funds come from? If they supplement the funding that previously went to public schools, then the benefit is from the new funding, not the voucher program. Again, specialized and/or charter schools or special programs can be established without vouchers.
 
Your fears are absolutely unfounded. In fact Ohio's scholarship programs proves them untrue. We have scholarship programs set up specifically for low income/working class. We have others set up specifically meeting needs due to location of poor performing school districts which often tends to be in poor neighborhoods. We have scholarships specifically for the learning disabled and physically disabled. This isn't about how much a child's parents make but everything to do with what the PARENT believes is best for THEIR child.

Exactly, and that is accomplished by issuing an equal amount of funding for each child, not each school, and then allow the schools to compete for those dollars. Hard Truth up there objects to vouchers because he thinks it would disadvantage the poorer students. But it wouldn't. It would put those poorer students on absolutely equal footing with everybody else so far as the public school system is concerned. And it would push failing schools to up their game to attract those students because if they can't attract them, then they don't get them. And that means they don't get the funding either.

And it would allow the lower income families who could not otherwise afford the full tuition to a good parochial or private school more opportunity because they might be able to come up with the remainder of the tuition when the voucher did not cover it all.

What those of us who are advocating school choice are advocating is to give the poor kids, the least advantaged kids, a shot at a better education. Those objecting to school choice are actually doing , however unintentionally, is sentencing those poor kids to never have any kind of chance to escape their failing schools.

School choice is all about improving the schools as well as giving parents the ability to choose what is best for their children.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom