Do you support school choice?

Question for everyone:

Would you rather that the average poor kid get a crappy, but completely secular, education, or a good education with religious influence? Keep in mind, most of those kids in the secular system are likely getting religious influences anyway.

mac said:

Question for everyone:

Would you rather that the average poor kid get a crappy, but completely secular, education, or a good education with religious influence? Keep in mind, most of those kids in the secular system are likely getting religious influences anyway.

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I'd prefer everyone get a high quality secular education without the religious mind poison.

Cephus said:

I'd prefer everyone get a high quality secular education without the religious mind poison.

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Ok, but if the choices were those I proposed, and only those, which would you rather?

AlbqOwl said:

...But you'll have to show some evidence for the purpose of the vouchers being to bust unions, restore racial segregation, fund religious education, and destroy the public school system, and benefit profiteers.....

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"Look who’s deploying some of his considerable financial clout to influence who we Hoosiers elect as superintendent of public instruction this fall. It’s billionaire New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who donated $40,000 last month to the re-election campaign of Republican Superintendent Tony Bennett.

Bloomberg, as mayor, has championed some of the same policies that Bennett has pushed in Indiana: more charter schools, test-based evaluations of teachers, etc. But it’s not like Bennett needs the money. He’s sitting on more than a half million dollars, and there’s no way his Democratic opponent, Glenda Ritz, will ever come close to that.

Ritz, an elementary school teacher in Washington Township schools on the north side of Indianapolis, did get $30,000 last month from the political action committee of the Indiana State Teachers Association. Well, it’s a start.

Bennett, meanwhile, got June campaign contributions of $25,000 from Merrillville hotel developer Dean White, $50,000 from charter school founder Christel DeHaan and $25,000 from Gov. Mitch Daniels’ Aiming Higher PAC.

On June 29, the same day he recorded the Bloomberg donation, Bennett also got $25,000 from Hoosiers for Economic Growth. As School Matters reported previously, the money behind HEG doesn’t come from Hoosiers and it has nothing to do with economic growth. HEG gets most of its funding, including all $275,000 it reported receiving this year, from the American Federation for Children, a school-voucher advocacy organization headed by Michigan conservative activist Betsy DeVos.

Much of AFC’s money – including $1.2 million in early 2012 – has come from three investment managers affiliated with Philadelphia firm Susquehanna International Group, Joel Greenberg, Arthur Dantchik and Jeff Yass, according to the organization’s Indiana campaign finance reports. In previous years, AFC got more than $1.5 million from Alice Walton, whose family owns Wal-Mart, and $1 million from New York hedge-fund manager Julian Robertson.

Strange, isn’t it? These people hand out six-figure checks like candy at a Fourth of July parade.

AFC in turn has bankrolled pro-voucher organizations in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Indiana. In 2010, Hoosiers for Economic Growth funneled its share into the campaigns of Republican legislative candidates. Republicans took full control of the Statehouse and delivered for their supporters by approving in 2011 what was then the most extensive school voucher program in the country."
Bloomberg, voucher advocates putting up money for Bennett | School Matters

mac said:

Ok, but if the choices were those I proposed, and only those, which would you rather?

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Neither. I gave my preference. I don't have to pick one from your stacked deck.

Hoosiers for Economic Growth spent almost $1.3 million during Indiana’s 2010 election cycle, most of it targeted to producing a Republican majority in the Indiana House. Organizations like School Choice Indiana and Gov. Mitch Daniels’ Aiming Higher also contributed to the effort, according to Klipsch’s presentation.

"...The goal was to overcome what Klipsch referred to as “the problem” – the Indiana State Teachers Association, which his presentation calls “the most powerful political force at the Statehouse and at the ballot box” and “the biggest spender by far” in Indiana politics.

The ISTA’s political action committee, the Indiana PAC for Education or I-PACE, spent $792,683 in 2010, according to campaign finance reports.

Hoosiers for Economic Growth gets much of its money from the Indiana PAC of American Federation for Children, a pro-voucher outfit headed by Michigan Republican activist Betsy DeVos. The PAC’s money comes from Philadelphia and New York hedge-fund managers and Wal-Mart heiress Alice Walton.

Voucher schools: More of the same

The Indianapolis Star had an article Sunday on what it described as increasing diversity in Indiana’s school-voucher program. The evidence: Of 301 schools accepting vouchers, eight are now non-religious, two are Jewish and three are Muslim. The rest are Christian......"
More on the money behind the Indiana school-voucher law | School Matters

"Wealthy campaign contributors and shadowy electioneering groups that back school voucher programs have spent nearly $10 million in 10 years in Wisconsin – much of it to help twice elect a governor who is trying to sharply expand the program, a Wisconsin Democracy Campaign review found.

Spending by school choice backers included $2.8 million in individual campaign contributions to mostly Republican and conservative candidates for statewide office and the legislature from 2003 through mid-2012, and $7 million for outside electioneering activities, like negative mailings and broadcast ads, from 2003 through 2012.

More than half of the $9.8 million in campaign contributions and outside spending – $5 million – by pro-voucher groups and individual supporters since 2003 occurred in the first 19 months of the 2011-12 election cycle when Republican Governor Scott Walker, the lieutenant governor and 13 state Senate seats were targeted for recall because of the governor’s successful plan to slash public employee collective bargaining rights (see Bar Chart). In the previous four, two-year election cycles, campaign contributions and outside election spending by voucher advocates had ranged from $751,925 to $1.6 million....

Those persistent, generous campaign contributions and millions of dollars more in outside election spending by mostly out-of-state interests are keys to the program’s survival and growth....

Nearly two-thirds of the $2.8 million from school choice backers came from individuals outside the state. The Democracy Campaign found that $1.8 million or 63 percent came from contributors in California, Arkansas, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Virginia, Wyoming, Texas and Missouri among others compared to about $1 million, or 37 percent, from Wisconsin contributors.

Topping the list of school choice contributors (Table 2) to Wisconsin candidates were billionaires Richard and Betsy DeVos of Grand Rapids, Michigan who contributed $337,330 from 2003 through mid-2012 to Wisconsin candidates for statewide office and the legislature.

The DeVos family has backed the school choice cause nationwide for several years. Richard DeVos Jr. is a former unsuccessful candidate for Michigan governor, and his father of the same name founded Amway Corporation. Betsy DeVos is heavily involved with American Federation for Children and founded its predecessor All Children Matter which spent about $2.4 million on outside activities in Wisconsin elections from 2004 through 2008. Walker was the top recipient of the couple’s contributions at $252,600, including $250,000 during his recall election when state election laws allowed the governor and other officeholders targeted for recall to collect unlimited contributions from individuals.

Behind the DeVos family are Robert and Patricia Kern, owners of Generac Power Systems in Waukesha who contributed $302,700. Most of that, $200,000, went to Walker during his recall contest. Like many other school choice supporters, the Kerns have contributed mostly to Republican candidates and conservative candidates. The couple’s Kern Family Foundation supports school voucher and other alternative education programs, pastoral training and engineering education. Robert Kern was a major backer – to the tune of $250,000 – of All Children Matter between 2005 and 2007.

Rounding out the top three contributors were John and Josephine Templeton who oversee the Templeton Foundation in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania and contributed $150,200 to Wisconsin candidates. In addition to school choice, the Templetons are long-time supporters of Republican and conservative candidates and causes across the country like the Cato Institute and numerous state efforts to ban same-sex marriage. They gave $100,000 to help pay Prosser’s recount expenses after his 2011 reelection, $50,000 to Walker for his recall campaign and $200 to two GOP legislative candidates.

In addition to spending by individuals and groups whose key issue is school vouchers, powerful lobbying groups like the Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce, the Metropolitan Milwaukee Chamber of Commerce and two Milwaukee police and firefighter unions also back the program. WMC, the state’s largest business group, represents a wide array of powerful special interests like business, manufacturing, construction, road building, banking, natural resources, health care that made $63 million in campaign contributions to candidates for statewide office and the legislature from 2003 through mid-2012, including $20.2 million to the governor.

WMC and two conservative ideological groups – Wisconsin Family Action and Americans for Prosperity – which also back school voucher programs, have spent $24.2 million on outside spending since 2003 to help elect dozens of legislative and statewide candidates. These groups, which keep secret their fundraising and spending on election activities, spent an estimated $8.65 million on outside electioneering activities to help Walker win the 2010 general and 2012 recall elections..."

http://millermps.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/money-behind-walkers-voucher-expansion/

Contributions* From School Voucher Supporters
To Candidates For Statewide Office And The Legislature
Name City State Employer Amount
Richard & Betsy DeVos Grand Rapids MI Alticor/Windquest $337,330
Robert & Patricia Kern Waukesha WI Generac Power Systems $302,700
John & Josephine Templeton Bryn Mawr PA Templeton Foundation $150,200
Dennis & Sandy Kuester Milwaukee WI M&I Bank $128,600
John & Christy Walton Jackson WY Walmart $122,100
Terry & Mary Kohler Sheboygan WI Windway Capital $117,875
Foster & Lynnette Friess Jackson WY Friess Associates $117,200
George & Susan Mitchell Whitefish Bay WI School Choice Wisconsin $115,500
William & Susan Oberndorf San Francisco CA SPO Partners $114,950
Jim & Lynne Walton Bentonville AR Walmart $109,600
San & Joanne Orr Wausau WI Wausau Paper $104,267
Roger Hertog New York NY Retired $100,000
Bruce Kovner New York NY Caxton Alternative Management $100,000
Howard Fuller & Deborah McGriff Milwaukee WI Marquette University/ New Schools Venture Fund $88,980
Richard & Sherry Sharp Richmond VA V-10 Capital Partners $88,300
John & Laura Fischer San Francisco CA Pisces $79,500
Virginia James Lambertville NJ Retired $67,550
Michael W. Grebe Milwaukee WI Bradley Foundation $61,700
Rex Sinquefield Westphalia MO Show-Me Institute $55,000
David & Julia Uihlein Milwaukee WI Uihlein Wilson Architects $54,900
William & Patricia Hume San Francisco CA Basic American Foods $40,400
John Bryan Lake Oswego OR Eos Inc. $35,500
David & Ann Brennan Akron OH White Hat Management $31,000
H. Fisk Johnson Racine WI S.C. Johnson & Sons $30,000
Andrew & Janice Fleckenstein Waukesha WI Fleck Foundation $27,700
Arthur Dantchik Gladwyne PA SIG Financial Holdings $24,500
Peter Denton Palm Beach FL Retired $24,100
George Hume San Francisco CA Basic American Foods $23,500
Alice Walton Millsap TX Walmart $21,950
Greg & Carrie Penner Menlo Park CA Walmart $20,000

*Table show contributors who gave $20,000 or more to statewide officeholders from 2003 through June 2012 and to current legislators and legislative leadership committees from 2003 through July 2012.

Money Behind Walker’s Voucher Expansion | Larry Miller's Blog: Educate All Students!

"....In just a couple of months, the Fighting Chance PA PAC already has doled out $225,000 to pro-voucher state lawmakers and other political committees in Harrisburg. Its biggest donation to an individual lawmaker, $25,000, was handed to obscure GOP Rep. Jim Christiana of Beaver County on May 9 — one month before Christiana introduced a bill that would support scholarships for Catholic and other nonpublic schools but would cost the state as much as $75 million.

Ironically, the money that the PAC has raised hasn't come from any source traditionally tied to the Archdiocese: The entire $395,000 has come from three wealthy Bala Cynwyd-based hedge-fund founders — and their Students First PA PAC — who have spent millions since 2010 on Pennsylvania candidates who support vouchers and school choice.

Still, public-education advocates see the dovetailing of the PAC's mission and its generous political gift-giving with aggressive lobbying by Archdiocese officials and allied groups as another sign that Philadelphia's relatively new Archbishop Charles Chaput is living up to his reputation as one of America's most political Catholic leaders....

Pennsylvania lawmakers are pushing ahead with a tax-credit expansion despite a New York Times report last month that found the program here dripping with political influence. The Times cited scholarship programs such as the Bridge Educational Foundation — chaired by a prominent Harrisburg lobbyist and run by the wife of Gov. Corbett's 2010 campaign manager, which works with lawmakers to identify target schools, and receives money from firms seeking to curry favor with state government such as the gas-drilling XTO Energy, which gave $650,000 over three years.

Sponsor Christiana — who hails from Monaca, Pa., the Ohio River town also in the news this month as site of a large proposed Shell ethane-cracking plant — said in a telephone interview that it's critical to help kids in low-performing schools.

"The reality is that Harrisburg has to do something different to give these kids an opportunity," said Christiana, explaining why he introduced his measure.

Campaign records show that more than 38 percent of the campaign cash that the Republican has raised so far in 2012 has come from three pro-voucher groups — the political-action committee of pro-school-choice Wal-Mart, which gave $2,500; $25,000 from the Students First PAC linked to the hedge-fund partners of Bala's Susquehanna International Group, and $25,000 from the new Fighting Chance PA PAC...."

Big money behind push for education tax credit program - Philly.com

Harry Bradley was one of the original charter members of the far right-wing John Birch Society, along with another Birch Society board member, Fred Koch, the father of Koch Industries' billionaire brothers and owners, Charles and David Koch....The Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation contributed $1,175,000 to DonorsTrust and Donors Capital Fund between 2009 and 2011.

A report by the Center for Public Integrity exposes a number of DonorsTrust funders, many of which have ties to the Koch brothers. One of the most prominent funders is the Knowledge and Progress Fund, a Charles Koch-run organization and one of the group's largest known contributors, having donated nearly $8 million from 2005 to 2011. Other contributors known to have donated at least $1 million to DonorsTrust include the Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation, Donald & Paula Smith Family Foundation, Searle Freedom Trust, Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, and the John M. Olin Foundation.[10]

Since its inception in 1999, DonorsTrust has been used by conservative foundations and individuals to discretely funnel nearly $400 million to like-minded think tanks and media outlets.[10] According to the organization's tax documents, in 2011, DonorsTrust contributed a total of $86 million to conservative organizations. Many recipients had ties to the State Policy Network (SPN), a wide collection of conservative state-based think tanks and media organizations that focus on shaping public policy and opinion. In 2013, the Center for Media and Democracy released a special report on SPN. Those who received DonorsTrust funding included media outlets such as the Franklin Center and the Lucy Burns Institute, as well as think tanks such as SPN itself, the Heartland Institute, Illinois Policy Institute, Independence Institute, Mackinac Center for Public Policy, South Carolina Policy Council, American Legislative Exchange Council, Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs, and the Cascade Policy Institute.[11]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Lynde_and_Harry_Bradley_Foundation


"...The John Birch society opposed aspects of the 1960s civil rights movement and claimed the movement had communists in important positions. In the latter half of 1965, the JBS produced a flyer entitled "What's Wrong With Civil Rights?", which was used as a newspaper advertisement.[15][16] In the piece, one of the answers was: "For the civil rights movement in the United States, with all of its growing agitation and riots and bitterness, and insidious steps towards the appearance of a civil war, has not been infiltrated by the Communists, as you now frequently hear. It has been deliberately and almost wholly created by the Communists patiently building up to this present stage for more than forty years."[17] The society opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, claiming it violated the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and overstepped individual states' rights to enact laws regarding civil rights. The society opposes "one world government", and it has an immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It opposes the United Nations, the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), and other free trade agreements...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

"....In July and August of 2011, the Center for Media and Democracy and The Nation exposed efforts by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) to privatize education through charters, vouchers, watering down teacher certification, breaking teacher unions, increasing testing, discrediting public schools, and eroding local control. In September, they were awarded the Sidney Award for Investigative Journalism.

ALEC Exposed in Minnesota - Handout provided at the Parents United Legislative Kick-Off.
One Year Later: The First ALEC Protest in Cincinnati - A good history of efforts to expose ALEC’s legislative influence, PR Watch, April 27, 2012.
117 ALEC Members Voted Out of Office in 2012, PR Watch, November 23, 2012

ALEC is a national group that brings together state legislators and corporations to draft model bills that can then be introduced at the state level. Corporations can veto proposals and ideas that aren’t to their liking—and can propose measures then written into model bills. Those model bills are introduced in multiple places creating consistent messages across the country. One state strategy is to introduce a lot of bills so education proponents can’t do away with all of them at one time.

“All of those pieces of legislation and those resolutions really err toward a goal, and that goal is the advancement of an agenda that seems to be dictated at almost every turn by multinational corporations.”
—John Nichols, The Nation ...""

Parents United for Public Schools | ALEC Education Agenda

"National School Choice Week, a pet project of big corporations and conservative billionaires like the Koch brothers, kicked off Monday with celebratory forums throughout the country. Billing itself as a social justice movement committed to “ensuring effective education options for every child,” “school choice” has actually become a deeply divisive wedge issue for the right. But the folks at School Choice Week would prefer that you didn’t know that.

AlterNetOn their website, you can find photographs and videos of shiny happy children of all races and ethnicities. And you’ll see that Bill Cosby is a major supporter. And since he has a doctorate in education and has acted as a philanthropist on behalf of many African-American schools, many will see his endorsement as an important mark of legitimacy.

But there are a few serious problems with the school choice movement. Though it attracts mainstream conservatives like Cosby, as well as Democrats like President Barack Obama, it is not, at its core, a bipartisan endeavor. Its most important backers are rightwing organizations like the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Prosperity and other groups supported by billionaire rightwing ideologues like the Koch brothers. They want to dismantle public education altogether and run schools as businesses, judged as “successes” or “failures” based on abstract data taken from high-stakes standardized test scores..."

vesper said:

You can doubt it all you want but it's working here in Ohio and mostly benefitting low income to middleclass families.
I find your "real intent" of vouchers to be absolutely absurd.
Not all charter schools are equal and in my state they are rated to help a parent determine which school they select for their child.
Normally the voucher does not pay for the total tuition.
The one receiving the voucher still pays taxes that support the public school district.
The voucher can be used on a public school or a private school
There are a growing number of teachers who are just fine with not having to put up with a union. In fact many of them think they are a big part of the problem with public education.
You know public schools have been complaining for years over the large class sizes. By allowing choice the classroom sizes decrease in public schools
And what in sam hill business is it of anyone if a parent wants to send their child to a religious school? Remember, these parents are still paying taxes. Some parents choose religious schools for their children and they are not religious but simply because some tend to offer a more liberal arts education where their little munchkins actually learn the art of critical thinking. They are also known to be intolerant to bad behavior and provide a more safe atmosphere for children to learn.

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Look at the people funding the voucher campaign and you will see that they have an anti-union, pro-corporate, privatization agenda, both on this issue, and the other initiatives and legislation that they support. Many of them are also racist and anti-democratic.

Vouchers probably will reduce public school class sizes, especially the schools in low income areas. That will cause those schools to lose most of their funding because it is provided on a per-student basis. Putting those schools in a death spiral, reducing the choices available to students in that area.

The problem with vouchers and religious schools is that it is a scam to bypass the first amendment prohibition on government funding for religions by funneling money previously used for public schools into religious organizations. It is also a problem that some religious schools misrepresent religious doctrine as scientific fact, misinforming kids and handicapping them when they attend college science classes. Parents are entitled to send their kids to religious schools, but they should do it with their ownmoney, not the taxpayers.

Cephus said:

Neither. I gave my preference. I don't have to pick one from your stacked deck.

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Well, good luck with that.

mac said:

Then why do you insist on only applying them to private schools?

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I don't insist to use them on private schools.

mac said:

Well, good luck with that.

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Don't need luck, already have reality. Thanks.

mac said:

The tuition is $XX....that's what the voucher would pay. The schools fundraise to pay for extras and improvements. And, as you indicated, fundraising engenders parental involvement. Now, there is also fundraising in public schools...

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Public schools may do some fund raising for extras but they don't do it for the everyday business of running the school. Private schools are not that way at all. Most private schools get basic educational funding (not just for "extras") from private sources. Comparing private tuition rates to public expense per student is dishonest unless you can guarantee those private donations will continue at the same level, which you can't do.


And, once again, your tuition doesn't include transportation costs as public expenses do.

mac said:

Again, it doesn't matter if they do. The tuition is $XX and that's what the voucher is applied to.

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Of course it matters. If the donations don't keep up with the huge influx of students - and they won't - then tuition must rise. Again, comparing private tuition to public expenses is a dishonest comparison.

Hard Truth said:

"Look who’s deploying some of his considerable financial clout to influence who we Hoosiers elect as superintendent of public instruction this fall. It’s billionaire New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who donated $40,000 last month to the re-election campaign of Republican Superintendent Tony Bennett.

Bloomberg, as mayor, has championed some of the same policies that Bennett has pushed in Indiana: more charter schools, test-based evaluations of teachers, etc. But it’s not like Bennett needs the money. He’s sitting on more than a half million dollars, and there’s no way his Democratic opponent, Glenda Ritz, will ever come close to that.

Ritz, an elementary school teacher in Washington Township schools on the north side of Indianapolis, did get $30,000 last month from the political action committee of the Indiana State Teachers Association. Well, it’s a start.

Bennett, meanwhile, got June campaign contributions of $25,000 from Merrillville hotel developer Dean White, $50,000 from charter school founder Christel DeHaan and $25,000 from Gov. Mitch Daniels’ Aiming Higher PAC.

On June 29, the same day he recorded the Bloomberg donation, Bennett also got $25,000 from Hoosiers for Economic Growth. As School Matters reported previously, the money behind HEG doesn’t come from Hoosiers and it has nothing to do with economic growth. HEG gets most of its funding, including all $275,000 it reported receiving this year, from the American Federation for Children, a school-voucher advocacy organization headed by Michigan conservative activist Betsy DeVos.

Much of AFC’s money – including $1.2 million in early 2012 – has come from three investment managers affiliated with Philadelphia firm Susquehanna International Group, Joel Greenberg, Arthur Dantchik and Jeff Yass, according to the organization’s Indiana campaign finance reports. In previous years, AFC got more than $1.5 million from Alice Walton, whose family owns Wal-Mart, and $1 million from New York hedge-fund manager Julian Robertson.

Strange, isn’t it? These people hand out six-figure checks like candy at a Fourth of July parade.

AFC in turn has bankrolled pro-voucher organizations in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Indiana. In 2010, Hoosiers for Economic Growth funneled its share into the campaigns of Republican legislative candidates. Republicans took full control of the Statehouse and delivered for their supporters by approving in 2011 what was then the most extensive school voucher program in the country."
Bloomberg, voucher advocates putting up money for Bennett | School Matters

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My question was not about who is funding what, however.

MoSurveyor said:

Public schools may do some fund raising for extras but they don't do it for the everyday business of running the school. Private schools are not that way at all. Most private schools get basic educational funding (not just for "extras") from private sources. Comparing private tuition rates to public expense per student is dishonest unless you can guarantee those private donations will continue at the same level, which you can't do.


And, once again, your tuition doesn't include transportation costs as public expenses do.

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Well if public schools aren't managing the money to fund the schools adequately when they are spending considerably more per capita than are the charter, most parochial and private schools, that certainly isn't a good argument for keeping the money with them is it? Most especially those who do a crappy job of educating kids. Let the money follow the child and you'll see education improve in a huge big hurry. Including in many of the currently failing schools who will up their game and do a better job to keep that money flowing their way.

AlbqOwl said:

Well if public schools aren't managing the money to fund the schools adequately when they are spending considerably more per capita than are the charter, most parochial and private schools, that certainly isn't a good argument for keeping the money with them is it?

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You don't know how much those private schools are spending, that's the whole point, and in those rare cases when you've got an actual, published budget it doesn't include things like transportation, which is included in the costs for public schools. You want people to believe tuition alone is covering the actual cost of private school education but that's a lie made up to advance your cause.

AlbqOwl said:

Most especially those who do a crappy job of educating kids. Let the money follow the child and you'll see education improve in a huge big hurry. Including in many of the currently failing schools who will up their game and do a better job to keep that money flowing their way.

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I have as yet to see a private school forced to accept every student that applies, so your assumptions are based on crap statistics. What becomes of all the kids that aren't accepted to non-public schools? Who pays for them and what education, if any, will they get? You never discuss them, you just rattle on about metrics based on crap statistics and dishonesty.

MoSurveyor said:

Public schools may do some fund raising for extras but they don't do it for the everyday business of running the school. Private schools are not that way at all. Most private schools get basic educational funding (not just for "extras") from private sources. Comparing private tuition rates to public expense per student is dishonest unless you can guarantee those private donations will continue at the same level, which you can't do.


And, once again, your tuition doesn't include transportation costs as public expenses do.

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MoSurveyor said:

Of course it matters. If the donations don't keep up with the huge influx of students - and they won't - then tuition must rise. Again, comparing private tuition to public expenses is a dishonest comparison.

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It's not dishonest at all. No school is going to accept students beyond its capacity, so there is no great influx of students to existing schools, what's more likely to happen is that new private institutions will arise, and they will be no more affected than present ones.

mac said:

It's not dishonest at all. No school is going to accept students beyond its capacity, so there is no great influx of students to existing schools, what's more likely to happen is that new private institutions will arise, and they will be no more affected than present ones.

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There's only so much charity money to go around. If new schools do arise, and have no donations or charity funding, then their tuition will be much higher since their tuition would have to cover all of the costs of the school, not just what the donations and charity funding doesn't pay.


So,again, comparing private school tuition to public cost per student is dishonest.

And the tuition for private schools doesn't include transportation like public school costs do, another bit of deception in the comparisons.

MoSurveyor said:

You don't know how much those private schools are spending, that's the whole point, and in those rare cases when you've got an actual, published budget it doesn't include things like transportation, which is included in the costs for public schools. You want people to believe tuition alone is covering the actual cost of private school education but that's a lie made up to advance your cause.


I have as yet to see a private school forced to accept every student that applies, so your assumptions are based on crap statistics. What becomes of all the kids that aren't accepted to non-public schools? Who pays for them and what education, if any, will they get? You never discuss them, you just rattle on about metrics based on crap statistics and dishonesty.

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All I know is that the USA is 4th in the world in per capita spending on public education and is waaaaaaaaay down on the list of the effectiveness of that education. And it is usually the most heavily funded public schools that are doing the worst. Washington DC is a prime example. If there isn't room in a private school, that many parents could not afford even with a voucher system, with school choice at least the lower income family could get a kid out of a failing school into a better public school. And again, the people running the failing school don't want to lose their jobs if all their kids start bailing out and leaving them. So that could be a really strong incentive for them to clean up their act, start doing a better job, and keeping the local kids home.

What good parent would not choose a good local school near home rather than going through the headache of transporting their kids to a distant school, if the kids could get just as good an education in the neighborhood school?

But the failing school has no incentive to get better if it receives its full funding and the administration and teachers get paid whether they educate the kids or not.

We need to stop rewarding failing schools with more and more funding, and we need to reward good ones and encourage failing schools to become good ones. A voucher system/school choice is the most reasonable way to accomplish that.

AlbqOwl said:

But the failing school has no incentive to get better if it receives its full funding and the administration and teachers get paid whether they educate the kids or not.

We need to stop rewarding failing schools with more and more funding, and we need to reward good ones and encourage failing schools to become good ones. A voucher system/school choice is the most reasonable way to accomplish that.

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The flaw in this is thinking it's all about money. More money = good schools and less money = bad schools (and vice-versa)? This is clearly not true. Schools with the same level of funding can have vastly different outcomes. Some schools improve their outcomes without any change in funding and some schools decline in the same situation. Some very wealthy schools (state or private) can suffer specific problems and some very poor schools can still find ways to excel in specific areas.

The factors that lead to good or bad outcomes from schools (measured and real) are wide and varied and focusing on a single one (such as funding) alone is destined to failure. If a school is (or appears to be) doing poorly, someone needs to get off their backside and find out why (all the whys) and work on addressing them. Some of them can't be addressed of course. One of the biggest factors in a schools outcome is the fundamental abilities of the children who join them and the support (or lack thereof) from the parents. Of course, it could be suggested that one of the hidden aims of vouchers is to deal with this by pushing the academically weak children of disinterested parents to one side.

Vouchers won't solve the problems of "bad" schools. They'd probably make some of them much worse for what little they might improve elsewhere. Without an active desire to improve all schooling for all children that isn't going to happen. With that desire from enough people, tricks like vouchers shouldn't be necessary at all.