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Do you support school choice?

Do you support school choice?


  • Total voters
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but many of the parents of those special needs kids do not want them in enclaves with other special needs kids
they want them with 'regular' students in 'regular' schools, to 'mainstream' them
why would a FOR PROFIT school allow students who are much more expensive to educate, attend at the same voucher value as a student who did not need extraordinary and expensive resources, if they are allowed to exclude such special needs/high cost students [as is the circumstance today]

Not all private schools are "for profit". :shrug:
 
Revenue (tuition) and production costs are actually never equal or maybe I should say only in rare cases.
For public schools the cost per student is taken from the expenses of the school and it's enrollment. You can't "fudge" cost per student when that's your data. Private schools seldom publish their budget and financing.
 
You keep interchanging tuition and operating cost but they're not usually synonymous in private schools. For example, it's a well known fact that Catholic schools are highly subsidized by the Church, so comparing Catholic school tuition to public school cost, instead of comparing Catholic school cost to public school cost, isn't a valid comparison. You really need to make sure the Catholic church is willing to subsidize millions and millions of non-Catholic children before you use their tuition rates as "cost". The same applies to virtually all private schools in America. I think you'll find most of them are supported through other means than just tuition, so to use private school tuition statistics you would need the consent of all contributors and philanthropists that donate to private schools. Good luck getting that because I'd bet they're not willing.


I would also note your private school "tuition" most likely does not include transportation costs.

There are several private schools in my area, not all Catholic, and all roughly the same tuition.
 
Really? The motive behind any school that has to make a profit is profit. That is why I think these schools choose the number of students they take in with expensive issues and get rid of those that they know need more.

Yeah, really. You're acting like the only recipient of the voucher is a private, for profit, school. These vouchers are also used to send students to better performing public schools, charter schools and magnate schools. Not just private and parochial schools.

Now, as to "for profit schools" if there is a market, someone will find a way to make it profitable.
 
Yeah, really. You're acting like the only recipient of the voucher is a private, for profit, school. These vouchers are also used to send students to better performing public schools, charter schools and magnate schools. Not just private and parochial schools.

Now, as to "for profit schools" if there is a market, someone will find a way to make it profitable.

That was the topic of the discussion. Links were used to show which states had these vouchers. If you want to change the topic feel free. My state does not do private vouchers. Mostly school choice is for other public schools and charters in the area.
 
Privatization and voucher schemes are based on the notion that it impossible to effectively educate most poor and other challenging children, and that it is acceptable to give up on the effort. The problem of educational failure will never be solved with that attitude and such practices.

You are so off base you're on the football field. The voucher system is based upon the idea that regardless of income a child has a chance at a better school. If it was about not educating the poor then why would a voucher go to the poor to allow them to attend a better school. And by better I am talking about a school that fits their needs.

That is just one of the reasons classroom teachers are left with fewer and fewer resources to help the most needy students.

And yet more and more money thrown down the black hole is getting us where precisely? It's certainly not better grades and more educated students. Of course I have to wonder bout how all those teachers are getting left with fewer and fewer resources while upper level education admin types are getting larger and larger salaries, not to mention union officers.

why would a FOR PROFIT school allow students who are much more expensive to educate, attend at the same voucher value as a student who did not need extraordinary and expensive resources, if they are allowed to exclude such special needs/high cost students [as is the circumstance today]

Why do people start charities and run them? Because they care. Even charities have to run at a profit since to do otherwise would cause the charity to shut down. Just because the school is designed to run in a financial manner to keep running in the future, it doesn't mean that the people running it aren't seriously out to help the children.

Mostly school choice is for other public schools and charters in the area.

That's a hell of a lot better than any of the states I've been in over the years. I'll take that as a start.
 
That was the topic of the discussion. Links were used to show which states had these vouchers. If you want to change the topic feel free. My state does not do private vouchers. Mostly school choice is for other public schools and charters in the area.

I think you need to re-acquaint. Vouchers, in many of the proposed systems, are not just for sending your kid to private school.
 
There are several private schools in my area, not all Catholic, and all roughly the same tuition.
And you know for a fact the non-Catholic schools get no outside donations? I'd like to see these non-Catholic school budgets but I bet they don't publish them.
 
And you know for a fact the non-Catholic schools get no outside donations? I'd like to see these non-Catholic school budgets but I bet they don't publish them.

Oh, I didn't say that. Most private schools are fund raising constantly, so?
 
Right, and about 3 other states are similar. 4 Total.
You said it was rare, I just looked up my own and found out it wasn't so rare after all.
 
Oh, I didn't say that. Most private schools are fund raising constantly, so?
Then what you've been comparing as expense per student isn't expense per student at all. The low tuition you've been quoting relies on charity that you can't in any way guarantee will continue at those levels when millions of poor children become part of that system. Don't expect poor mothers to bake a hundred dollars worth of goods to sell or even expect them to attend rallies to raise money. Don't expect poor children to sell candy bars around their neighborhood, they most likely won't. If poor parents and children were that involved in their inner-city schools we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
Oh, I didn't say that. Most private schools are fund raising constantly, so?

So are most of the public schools at least the ones I went to and the ones my kids attended in 4 different states. What's your point?
 
You are so off base you're on the football field. The voucher system is based upon the idea that regardless of income a child has a chance at a better school. If it was about not educating the poor then why would a voucher go to the poor to allow them to attend a better school. And by better I am talking about a school that fits their needs....

Many schools will cost more than the vouchers will cover. Prosperous families will be able to pay the extra cost, the poor will not. Poor children will continue to be relegated to less expensive private and/or public schools. The public schools will be worse than ever because so much money will be funneled to the private schools. Poor children will be worse off than ever and more prosperous families will get a nice discount for a private school funded by tax payers and the poor.
 
Many schools will cost more than the vouchers will cover. Prosperous families will be able to pay the extra cost, the poor will not. Poor children will continue to be relegated to less expensive private and/or public schools. The public schools will be worse than ever because so much money will be funneled to the private schools. Poor children will be worse off than ever and more prosperous families will get a nice discount for a private school funded by tax payers and the poor.

The wealthy can afford to put their children wherever they wish. The poor at least can use a voucher system to choose a school better than the terrible one their child currently is required to attend. And, with the money following the child instead of being assigned to a school, some will be able to put their child in a good parochial or private school that would have been beyond their means without such choice being made to them. And by this means the better and best schools will prosper. The terrible schools will not and will hopefully close.

For the life of me, I can't understand why the leftists/statists/progressives/political class/liberals are so gung ho to deny people a choice in where their child will attend school. What is so scary about that to them?
 
The wealthy can afford to put their children wherever they wish. The poor at least can use a voucher system to choose a school better than the terrible one their child currently is required to attend. And, with the money following the child instead of being assigned to a school, some will be able to put their child in a good parochial or private school that would have been beyond their means without such choice being made to them. And by this means the better and best schools will prosper. The terrible schools will not and will hopefully close.

For the life of me, I can't understand why the leftists/statists/progressives/political class/liberals are so gung ho to deny people a choice in where their child will attend school. What is so scary about that to them?


I doubt that the vouchers will enable many of the the poor to afford a better school. Vouchers will drive up the price of all private schools since all but the poorer families will be able to pay more than they could previously and there will be more people trying to get into a limited number of schools. Free market competition should not be applied to education because public education should be provided to all on an equal basis and many families will not have the ability to travel far out of their neighborhoods to where the good schools are located. There is a lot of money being spent by for-profit education companies advocating for these changes because they are hoping to increase their profits dramatically.

I don't trust the whole voucher scheme because the real intent is to bust unions, restore racial segregation, get taxpayers to fund religious education and to destroy the public school system so that education can be run by profiteers.
 
Then what you've been comparing as expense per student isn't expense per student at all. The low tuition you've been quoting relies on charity that you can't in any way guarantee will continue at those levels when millions of poor children become part of that system. Don't expect poor mothers to bake a hundred dollars worth of goods to sell or even expect them to attend rallies to raise money. Don't expect poor children to sell candy bars around their neighborhood, they most likely won't. If poor parents and children were that involved in their inner-city schools we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

The tuition is $XX....that's what the voucher would pay. The schools fundraise to pay for extras and improvements. And, as you indicated, fundraising engenders parental involvement. Now, there is also fundraising in public schools...
 
So are most of the public schools at least the ones I went to and the ones my kids attended in 4 different states. What's your point?

My point is the charity part of the argument is moot, as you've reiterated.
 
And you know for a fact the non-Catholic schools get no outside donations? I'd like to see these non-Catholic school budgets but I bet they don't publish them.

Again, it doesn't matter if they do. The tuition is $XX and that's what the voucher is applied to.
 
I think you need to re-acquaint. Vouchers, in many of the proposed systems, are not just for sending your kid to private school.

:dohUm, yeah, I know since the schools in my state don't use vouchers for private school. I mentioned that more than once.
 
I doubt that the vouchers will enable many of the the poor to afford a better school. Vouchers will drive up the price of all private schools since all but the poorer families will be able to pay more than they could previously and there will be more people trying to get into a limited number of schools. Free market competition should not be applied to education because public education should be provided to all on an equal basis and many families will not have the ability to travel far out of their neighborhoods to where the good schools are located. There is a lot of money being spent by for-profit education companies advocating for these changes because they are hoping to increase their profits dramatically.

I don't trust the whole voucher scheme because the real intent is to bust unions, restore racial segregation, get taxpayers to fund religious education and to destroy the public school system so that education can be run by profiteers.

Well okay. Thanks for giving an honest opinion about that. That shows more guts that most of your ideological brethren here have shown. But you'll have to show some evidence for the purpose of the vouchers being to bust unions, restore racial segregation, fund religious education, and destroy the public school system, and benefit profiteers.

I could have sworn the majority of us supporting school vouchers--I would guess maybe 100% of us--approve of school choice because it helps all kids get a better education than they could otherwise. And we pretty much are unified that the status quo that you describe as 'providing to all on an equal basis' has put the cost of our education near the top in the world while putting us way down near the bottom of the barrel in effectiveness of that education. We simply think it is time to do it differently and achieve better results.
 
Well okay. Thanks for giving an honest opinion about that. That shows more guts that most of your ideological brethren here have shown. But you'll have to show some evidence for the purpose of the vouchers being to bust unions, restore racial segregation, fund religious education, and destroy the public school system, and benefit profiteers.

I could have sworn the majority of us supporting school vouchers--I would guess maybe 100% of us--approve of school choice because it helps all kids get a better education than they could otherwise. And we pretty much are unified that the status quo that you describe as 'providing to all on an equal basis' has put the cost of our education near the top in the world while putting us way down near the bottom of the barrel in effectiveness of that education. We simply think it is time to do it differently and achieve better results.

Change can be effective if done right, or destructive if done wrong. Results should be interesting but MA is doing something right.
 
I doubt that the vouchers will enable many of the the poor to afford a better school. Vouchers will drive up the price of all private schools since all but the poorer families will be able to pay more than they could previously and there will be more people trying to get into a limited number of schools. Free market competition should not be applied to education because public education should be provided to all on an equal basis and many families will not have the ability to travel far out of their neighborhoods to where the good schools are located. There is a lot of money being spent by for-profit education companies advocating for these changes because they are hoping to increase their profits dramatically.

I don't trust the whole voucher scheme because the real intent is to bust unions, restore racial segregation, get taxpayers to fund religious education and to destroy the public school system so that education can be run by profiteers.

You can doubt it all you want but it's working here in Ohio and mostly benefitting low income to middleclass families.
I find your "real intent" of vouchers to be absolutely absurd.
Not all charter schools are equal and in my state they are rated to help a parent determine which school they select for their child.
Normally the voucher does not pay for the total tuition.
The one receiving the voucher still pays taxes that support the public school district.
The voucher can be used on a public school or a private school
There are a growing number of teachers who are just fine with not having to put up with a union. In fact many of them think they are a big part of the problem with public education.
You know public schools have been complaining for years over the large class sizes. By allowing choice the classroom sizes decrease in public schools
And what in sam hill business is it of anyone if a parent wants to send their child to a religious school? Remember, these parents are still paying taxes. Some parents choose religious schools for their children and they are not religious but simply because some tend to offer a more liberal arts education where their little munchkins actually learn the art of critical thinking. They are also known to be intolerant to bad behavior and provide a more safe atmosphere for children to learn.
 
:dohUm, yeah, I know since the schools in my state don't use vouchers for private school. I mentioned that more than once.

Then why do you insist on only applying them to private schools?
 
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