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Are you pro life or pro choice?

Are you pro life or pro choice?


  • Total voters
    87
Interesting, but you didnt address this, and the fact that you believe your personal value judgement should apply to everyone (implied...I realize you said you wouldnt force it on women)


Hi, Lursa.

you never told me what was hypocritical which leads me to assume you have no depth to your statement. I know you're better than that!
 
What would you label me if I voted to pass a bill intended to allow bank robberies, but claimed I miself was against them???

Probably call me pro-bank robbery.

weird this doesn't change the fact your example was completely laughable and failed.
nope not the same at all
bank robberies are factually against the law and they factual violate rights in one direction
and there is no right to conduct them

but to answer your question, if people voted that id call them idiots
id label them pro anarchy, anti-rights and anti-freedom

your example fails again
 
They were completely valid quotes and 100% on target. Denial? Really? Well no problem, everyone else can read them too.

Alright, let's address them.

"In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, 1.) increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, 2.) and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers." 1. There is no causal relationship between having a teen mother and ending up in jail 2. There is no way to statistically measure the lost tax revenue due to lower educational attainment because a.) we don't know future tax rates b.) having a baby does not preclude getting an education and therefore... the author pulled this 11 billion figure out of his ass.

"Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence." Misleading stat because a higher percentage of teen pregnancies occur in minority neighborhoods. Graduation rates in those neighborhoods are generally lower than the national average. Why that matters - teen pregnancy is caused by socioeconomic factors. Lower graduation rates are also caused by socioeconomic factors. Therefore, teen pregnancy does not lead directly to lower graduation, it merely correlates because both occur to a greater extent in the same poor minority neighborhoods

"The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult." Again you have a case where correlation doesn't imply causation. I would argue that socioeconomic factors are more in play.


And I also want to live in a world where people respect life...women's lives....women LIVING and breathing and participating in society and deserving of respect you choose to deny them (just by minimizing the risks of pregnancy and childbirth and their futures). Women with rights.

More ignorance: no birth control is 100% unless it's surgical. So married couples shouldnt have sex after they cant afford more kids? Or in between? Or couples that dont want kids at all? Or people that wish to enjoy sex? Otherwise...the women must jeopardize their lives and futures....TOTAL disrespect.

Yeah...it's just IMO but I believe women's lives are indeed more worth of respect than fetuses.

How is it disrespectful to women to disallow abortion? You know that there are women who do not believe in abortion as well, are they equally disrespectful to their own gender, or is this just a convenient argument you can use on me due to my gender?

Part of what makes a woman a woman is that for a period of time, she will have two bodies within her instead of just one. I hear pro-choice folks talk about a fetus like it's a parasite and I know that cannot be what God intended. Life is precious.

More anecdotes: One of the most successful and amazing women I have ever met had her first child at age 16, and her second child at age 19. She is a purchasing manager for us and is attending college in the evenings, completely paid for by us as we value our employees continuing education. Her husband drives a truck which he now owns himself, and they live a comfortable low-six figures middle class life.

The point is, having a baby at a young age made her more focused and determined to succeed, and she did succeed with everything she set out for herself to do.

So you can throw statistics at me but I've shown you how they can be fudged, and you won't convince me that it's not possible to succeed professionally while raising a family at a young age.
 
weird this doesn't change the fact your example was completely laughable and failed.
nope not the same at all
bank robberies are factually against the law and they factual violate rights in one direction
and there is no right to conduct them

but to answer your question, if people voted that id call them idiots
id label them pro anarchy, anti-rights and anti-freedom

your example fails again

The problem you're not able to see is that pro-life view abortions exactly the same as you view bank robberies. wrong, immoral, and [should be] against the law. so when you say they shouldn't be against the law you are essentially saying you are pro abortion. the definition of "pro" is "in favor" or in favor of abortion, which is what you're saying...is it not?
 
1.)The problem you're not able to see is that pro-life view abortions exactly the same as you view bank robberies. wrong, immoral, and [should be] against the law. so when you say they shouldn't be against the law you are essentially saying you are pro abortion. the definition of "pro" is "in favor" or in favor of abortion, which is what you're saying...is it not?

thats no problem at all because how pro-life views things doesnt matter to how pro-choice does or choices their label, this is a fact lol

can i then say there are pro-choice people that view you as anti-choice or anti-rights etc etc and that just makes it magically so?

no because that logic would be equally as mentally retarded

the reality is and facts are, bank robberies ARE FACTUALLY against the law and abortion is not

we arent discussing fantasy

so no its not essentially the same by any stretch of the honest imagination lol

once again you are wrong :shrug:
 
thats no problem at all because how pro-life views things doesnt matter to how pro-choice does or choices their label, this is a fact lol

can i then say there are pro-choice people that view you as anti-choice or anti-rights etc etc and that just makes it magically so?

no because that logic would be equally as mentally retarded

the reality is and facts are, bank robberies ARE FACTUALLY against the law and abortion is not

we arent discussing fantasy

so no its not essentially the same by any stretch of the honest imagination lol

once again you are wrong :shrug:

ok you're right. I'm going to switch to pro abortion. i've been wrong all along and you helped me see the troof
 
I understand what you're saying and it's a good point: one's ownership over his own body is greater than his ownership over his property, therefore the government has less right to regulate what you do with your body than it does to take your property.

I also appreciate the story about your grandfather, I'm sorry to hear that he passed away, but it is interesting to hear how euthanasia is perceived in a country where it is legal.

In America, we do legislate what you can and can't do with your own body, although, as you can see, it's a hotly contested point of debate. You have some Americans who draw the line at the same place you do, to say that you have complete ownership of your body but the government can pillage your possessions as they see fit. You have other Americans who see their possessions as an extension of themselves, and think the government have no more right to take their land or their home than they do to take their toe or your hand. Then you have people like me, who believe the greater good is what counts no matter what.

I think there are merits to all points of view. I arrived at mine after a lot of reading and traveling, but I am sure I will change my mind on things several more times before my time is up.

That is how many people reach their points of view, greater understanding usually comes with greater knowledge and experience.

I have come to my points of view partly through experience, teachings, political leanings and meeting people and sharing ideas and learning from them.

I do however do not agree with the government pillaging someones possessions ;), but there are times when the government can take possessions. One of the situations where it is legal is the "pluck them law" in which criminals are "freed" from the proceeds of their crimes (like big expensive cars, boats, villa's etc. etc. etc.). But sometimes the government also takes someones land or house but this is never without there being legal recourse (you can petition a judge etc.) and usually this only happens in extraordinary situations. Like someone owns a piece of land that is vital in building a new protection dyke against floods that threaten the lives of thousands and that person refuses to sell that land. In circumstances like that the government can forcibly procure that land, but that still can be undone by a judge.

Pillaging governments are bad news and there is a magic cure for those kinds of governments, elections :2razz:
 
ok you're right. I'm going to switch to pro abortion. i've been wrong all along and you helped me see the troof

makign a deflection just because your failed logic was proven factually wrong wont help your case.
fact remains your example still failed, especially since its illogical and its hypocritical cause you would accept it in reverse lol

but yes i know that im right

let me know when you have any facts that support your failed example ill be here
 
Interesting, but you didnt address this, and the fact that you believe your personal value judgement should apply to everyone (implied...I realize you said you wouldnt force it on women)

Here's how I would address that. How do you feel about people who throw away food? Same exact thing. You have people starving all over the world, and people throw food away like it's trash. Same thing with money. You have people living hand to mouth, you have people going bankrupt because their kid is sick, and on the other hand you have people who are so rich they buy gold plated toilet seats.

All these things to me speak to a lack of human dignity.

We send our kids off to war and watch it on TV like it's a sitcom. I want to live in a world where we value life. Not just our own, but the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that we kill, of the people in Darfur we ignore, I just want to see more respect for human dignity and for life.

I don't think abortion is murder, but it fits in to the narrative I'm talking about, I don't like our throwaway culture and I would like to see a greater respect for life and human dignity.
 
New technology says your wrong my friend.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one because IMO there is no comparison to a 2 week old zygote and a 28 week old fetus that is nearing birth.
 
makign a deflection just because your failed logic was proven factually wrong wont help your case.
fact remains your example still failed, especially since its illogical and its hypocritical cause you would accept it in reverse lol

but yes i know that im right

let me know when you have any facts that support your failed example ill be here

Ok, will do. you win this time. or is it "next time, Gadget...Next time!"
 
Ok, will do. you win this time. or is it "next time, Gadget...Next time!"

thanks it shows integrity for a person to admit when they were wrong or lost but you were playing against me.
I was just posting some facts, maybe next time we'll talk about some opinions


also gadget got nothing on agent j
 
With this logic, I could say I'm against bank robberies, but support an individuals right to conduct them.

Bad analogy....bank robbery is illegal. A better analogy would be someone who is personally against smoking but doesn't support legislation to ban smoking in public places.
 
Bad analogy....bank robbery is illegal. A better analogy would be someone who is personally against smoking but doesn't support legislation to ban smoking in public places.

That smoking analogy actually describes me. and mine wasnt a very well thought out analogy.
 
I cannot see why a person cannot be both. Someone can be against abortion on a personal level but support the right of other people to choose differently.
 
You all have the freedom to be pro-abortion because you weren't aborted.

But don't call it pro-choice. Because it doesn't give the babies a choice.

Needless to say, based on what I just said, it's obvious how I voted.
 
Could you elaborate on that seemingly diametric contradiction?

It's beyond simple my friend.

#1) I would never have an abortion
#2) I do not support a government agency or legal bureaucracy telling me what I can or can't do regarding my reproductive rights.

Choice is very simple.

I'll do what I think is best for me.
You do what you think is best for you.

I won't tell/force you to do something you don't want to do.
You won't tell/force me to do something I don't want to do.


Surely you can understand that.
 
You all have the freedom to be pro-abortion because you weren't aborted.

But don't call it pro-choice. Because it doesn't give the babies a choice.

Needless to say, based on what I just said, it's obvious how I voted.

That somewhat conflicts with your "libertarian" standing because libertarians want the government out of peoples business, so why do you try to interfere with what goes on inside the bodies of someone else?

Because forcing a woman to carry a baby to term she does not want to carry is very dictatorial and totally not libertarian.
 
Bad analogy....bank robbery is illegal. A better analogy would be someone who is personally against smoking but doesn't support legislation to ban smoking in public places.

Well someone hasn't read the thread.

:-/
 
I find it sadly ironic that the same people who are "militantly anti-choice" also appear to be the same people who don't care about "collateral damage" deaths of children when drone strikes are used. Even more shocking when it's in countries we're not officially at war with.

They also seem to be the same people who justify the attack on Iraq in 2003, and our continued military presence and use of weapons on multiple fronts in the ME regardless of the actual "threat" to the mainland USofA.

Some are even supportive of the idea of attacking Iran.


In many regards - there are quite a few "pro-life" people here (maybe not all) who would be much better described as "selectively pro-life" .
 
Seriously? Explain how being pro choice isn't the same as pro abortion?

Uh, well, people who are pro-choice don't care whether any given woman aborts or not. That's up to her. That's why it's called "pro-choice." "Pro-abortion" implies that they believe a woman should abort. That is not an accurate description of the position.
 
I find it sadly ironic that the same people who are "militantly anti-choice"
Nobody is anti-choice.

People calling themselves "pro-choice" is the height of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty. They really don't want the child to have any choice whatsoever.

Just kill the ****ing baby whether they like it or not. After all, It's just a clump of cells like you or me. Do you think I should be able to choose to kill you on a whim?
 
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Nobody is anti-choice.

People calling themselves "pro-choice" is the height of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty. They really don't want the child to have any choice whatsoever.

Just kill the ****ing baby whether they like it or not. After all, It's just a clump of cells like you or me. Do you think I should be able to choose to kill you on a whim?

Wow... in one single post you've managed to completely display a level of ignorance, arrogance, and confusion so deep the Marianas Trench looks like a suburban rain gutter.
 
Pro-choice, but with some serious reservations. Late term, not down with that. If it has discernible human features...it's a human. If it's that far along, see it thru and get the adoption process going.

Just a little info:

Less than 1.5 percent of all legal abortions in the USA take place at or after 20 weeks gestation,
The risk to the woman's life is greater during an abortion at or after 20 weeks gestation.

Also the abortion operation is much more complicated and the doctor needs to be highly trained ...
therefore the risk to fetus or to the woman's life or health has to be greater if the pregnancy were allowed to continue than if an abortion is given.

Less than .1 ( that is point 1 or one tenth of of one percent ) of all legal abortions in the USA take place at or after 24 weeks gestation ( the limit viability ).

There are only 4 doctors in the USA who perform legal late term abortions and only a small handful of states that allow late term abortions in extreme cases.

These cases are where the woman's life is at risk, irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued , where the fetus would be stillborn or where the fetus is so malformed it would only live a few hours or minutes.

Kansas is one of a small handful of states tha allows late term abortions in these extreme cases.
Dr Tiller was one of a small handful ( I think he was of 3 in 2008 ) doctors who performed legal late term abortions.

OB/GYNs from all the USA would sent their patients with these extreme cases to Dr. Tiller in Kansas in 2008.

Kansas kept a record of all abortions that took place at or after 22 weeks gestation ( 24 2weeks is the limit of viability ) .

There were 323 abortions in 2008 that took place in Kansas in 2008 at or after 22 gestation.

192 fetuses were not viable. They would be stillborn or they were so malformed they would only live a few minutes or hours.

131 were because there would be irreparable damage to a major bodily function.


They were extreme cases.
 
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