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Are you pro life or pro choice?

Are you pro life or pro choice?


  • Total voters
    87
I would prefer to live in a society where every child is planned, and has a loving and caring set of parents who can raise that child in peace and safety.

I would prefer to live in a society where a woman's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (right to fulfill her potential in life) is respected, and respected above a fetus that is not even born and may not ever reach term.

And no matter what the law currently is...it's obvious that our rights are not. As our health, futures, and very lives are constantly minimized and placed 2nd to the unborn.
 
The poll question is flawed, and as usual people don't understand the proper way to ask these questions.

The two categories are:
Pro-life vs. Pro-abortion
Pro-choice vs. Anti-choice

You can be pro-life (for yourself) yet pro-choice for others. You can also be pro-life and anti-choice.

Likewise, you can be pro-abortion (for yourself, i.e. if I ever get pregnant I'm having an abortion), yet pro-choice or anti-choice for others.

I am pro-life and pro-choice.
 
What? No of course not. Legalizing abortion is the ethical evil of our time that society needs to fix, just like when slavery was legal.

No, religion is the evil that society needs to fix. When do you think that'll happen?
 
1.)I laugh too every time people try to compare SSM bans to interracial marriage bans since they are factually different and based on emotional hyperbole.

2.) Slavery and abortion are not the same issue.
3.) But legalized slavery was an ethical evil at the time it was legal, just like abortion is now.
4.) It is our modern day "slavery" issue that absolutely needs to be corrected.

1.) so you laugh at the facts, rights, laws, court cases, court precedence and all the judges that decided they are the same? awesome i find that funny that you laugh at that too

but they are based on FACTS and not hyperbole lol

if you disagree PLEASE by all means provide ONE single FACT that makes it a different issue, since again,; facts, rights, laws, court cases, judges and court cases already say they are the same. EQUALITY.

2.) correct they are not

What fact do you have that makes all thoise things wrong besides you simply dont like it, id LOVE to read it
FACTS prove your post wrong and support mine, let me know when this changes

3.) OPINION
4.) No FACTS support this like i said NONE they are different and not a like

let me know what you come up with id love to read it
 
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Very pro-life.

Legalized elective abortion is the ethical evil of our time like slavery was in the 1800's.
Yet, without an alternative, abortions will happen regardless of legality - they occurred before any laws were made about them, and they will continue to occur even if laws are made against them.

But in worse conditions, and with higher chance for death or permanent damage to the mother.
 
No, religion is the evil that society needs to fix. When do you think that'll happen?
When humans are no longer humans as we currently know them.
 
I don't know anybody who believes we should force someone to become a parent... even the staunchest pro-lifers don't believe that.

Maybe not an active and engaged parent, possibly an absentee parent, but biologically/genetically a parent none-the-less.

So see my comments about orphanages, foster parents, and adoption agencies.
 
I always laugh when somebody compares abortion to slavery, or Hitler of the killing of jews since they are factually different, its simply a failed straw man appeal to emotion based on nothing but hyperbole.

Only it you arrogantly assume everyone thinks like you or your opinion is somehow fact or absolute. The reality is that for someone who views a conceived fetus as a human life, and worthy of the rights therein, it absolutely is comparable.
 
Maybe not an active and engaged parent, possibly an absentee parent, but biologically/genetically a parent none-the-less.

So see my comments about orphanages, foster parents, and adoption agencies.

What's so bad about that?

Nobody's forcing anybody to become a biological parent either. If you don't want to get pregnant use protection. If you happen to get pregnant give it up for adoption. I don't see what's wrong with that.
 
Only it you arrogantly assume everyone thinks like you or your opinion is somehow fact or absolute. The reality is that for someone who views a conceived fetus as a human life, and worthy of the rights therein, it absolutely is comparable.

nope
I view the ZEF as a human life, i dont know anybody that doesnt
I view it worthy rights, i have stated this over and over again. In fact if it was up to me it would be legislated to grant SPECIFICALLY the ZEF rights and like all rights it would have to be decided when and how they conflict with the rights of others what is to be done.
I do NOT support person hood at conception though because that would simply negate the rights of the mother to extremely.

and since there is no factually way to grant equal rights to the ZEF and the woman something in the middle should be decided on.

so back on point, lastly until slaves are inside another human being no its not the same and the way its used is intellectually dishonest and nothing but hyperbole

now if one wants to say they are comparably, simply because they dont like them, thats fine by me but we know thats not the comparison trying to be made

when slavery is brought up we all know how the comparison is being made or at least the ball park compassion is being made and since slaves aren't inside another human being which is HUGE fundamentally

so without explanation pointing to a reality based and factual comparison they will factually be different on premise and foundation and again unless explained in rational i will continue to always laugh when somebody compares abortion to slavery, or Hitler of the killing of jews since they are factually different, its simply a failed straw man appeal to emotion based on nothing but hyperbole.
 
agent j said:
now if one wants to say they are comparably, simply because they dont like them, thats fine by me but we know thats not the comparison trying to be made

Except the poster basically did that and YOU straw manned him. He dd not claim they were physically similar but of similar levels of evil in his mind. Your OPINION of what should be done or that a middle ground is needed is irrelevant. Your OPINION is of no use to anyone but you as is your thought process.

Yes, slavery is not physically similar...but based on a persons thought process and opinion, it's reasonable for someone to view their evilness as similar.

Rape and murder are not physically the same exact same, but I would view them similar in regards to their evilness. Someone else may disagree, but their disagreement is based off THEIR opinion and view point unique to them, just as mine is to me.

Again with your ego thinking you magically no someones intent and attempting to use that as your reasoning to straw man him. Based on digs statement, his meaning was clear...not comparing them PHYSICALLY but in terms of the level of evilness in his opinion.

You sir are the one engaging in the fallacious debate and straw man creation.
 
What's so bad about that?

Nobody's forcing anybody to become a biological parent either. If you don't want to get pregnant use protection. If you happen to get pregnant give it up for adoption. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Because it is not your decision to make. It is not your body and you do not have the right to force your decisions,hang-ups and religious views upon people who clearly do not agree with you on this issue. Hence the name for people who do not want to force their views upon people is pro-choice.

Being pro-choice does not make someone pro-abortion. I agree that the adoption option has to be raised with pregnant women who want to terminate but in the end, the decision should purely be with the one who is pregnant. Sure there have to be limits and promotion of protection. But the last people who have the right to speak about that are conservatives. Conservatives were blasting and spewing their vile at women who wanted birth control in the health care provisions. They were being called whores who want to prostitute themselves on the states dime.

And I think the opposition to including safe sex as more than just abstaining from sex is also largely a conservative issue (even though there might also be plenty of democrats who oppose true sex education for high school kids).

Solving the problem of abortion will be helped by a less backward view of protection against pregnancy (condoms but more importantly the pill) and teaching kids about safe sex while stressing that it is better for them to start having it at a later age and to show and tell with boys and girls who have experienced the negative results of having unprotected sex too young.
 
Because it is not your decision to make. It is not your body and you do not have the right to force your decisions,hang-ups and religious views upon people who clearly do not agree with you on this issue. Hence the name for people who do not want to force their views upon people is pro-choice.

Being pro-choice does not make someone pro-abortion. I agree that the adoption option has to be raised with pregnant women who want to terminate but in the end, the decision should purely be with the one who is pregnant. Sure there have to be limits and promotion of protection. But the last people who have the right to speak about that are conservatives. Conservatives were blasting and spewing their vile at women who wanted birth control in the health care provisions. They were being called whores who want to prostitute themselves on the states dime.

And I think the opposition to including safe sex as more than just abstaining from sex is also largely a conservative issue (even though there might also be plenty of democrats who oppose true sex education for high school kids).

Solving the problem of abortion will be helped by a less backward view of protection against pregnancy (condoms but more importantly the pill) and teaching kids about safe sex while stressing that it is better for them to start having it at a later age and to show and tell with boys and girls who have experienced the negative results of having unprotected sex too young.

Let's focus on the first part of your response. You say it's not my decision to make. That's a libertarian argument. If we were all consistently libertarian, I would buy "it's not your decision" as a valid justification. The reality is, though, we are not.... far from it.

The government takes your property in spite of the fact that there are those who would say it's not yours to take. The government mandates that you cannot sell your kidney on ebay, in spite of the fact that it's your kidney. The government tells you that you can't smoke crack cocaine, in spite of the fact that it's your life.

The fact is, we get in each other's business all the time. We aren't libertarians. Therefore the libertarian argument to justify abortion just isn't very strong. If we as a society deem abortion to be destructive to society as a whole, we have every right to regulate it.
 
1.)Except the poster basically did that and YOU straw manned him.
He dd not claim they were physically similar but of similar levels of evil in his mind.
2.) Your OPINION of what should be done or that a middle ground is needed is irrelevant. Your OPINION is of no use to anyone but you as is your thought process.
3.)Yes, slavery is not physically similar...
4.)but based on a persons thought process and opinion, it's reasonable for someone to view their evilness as similar.
5.)Rape and murder are not physically the same exact same, but I would view them similar in regards to their evilness.
6.) Someone else may disagree, but their disagreement is based off THEIR opinion and view point unique to them, just as mine is to me.
7.)Again with your ego thinking you magically no someones intent and attempting to use that as your reasoning to straw man him.
8.)Based on digs statement, his meaning was clear...not comparing them PHYSICALLY but in terms of the level of evilness in his opinion.
9.)You sir are the one engaging in the fallacious debate and straw man creation.

weird you did something different, maybe you accidentally nicked my name or something in the qoute because this doesnt come up in my who quoted me, i also notice no blue dot and my name is is small letters?
anyway no biggie just saying

1.) did what, the posted did nothing of the sort accept say they are the same the abortion is todays slavery which is a complete irrational and illogical joke

the statement made was "Legalized elective abortion is the ethical evil of our time like slavery was in the 1800's."
again since a slave(one human being) isnt inside another human being how are they ethically alike?

in one case we are talking about ONE life on an individual level and how they weren't treated as persons even though they qualified in every other way and they were beatin, bread and used for slaves

in another we are talking about TWO lives, not one. and its a collision of right to life since one life is in the other

not the same ethically. One is always a threat, maybe very small maybe very large but a threat to life but its presence and location. If he would like to expand more then fine but that would take ASSUMING more than he actually said and it would also make the comparison pretty silly.

2.) no it was very relevant as to the point i want you to know that your FALSE assumption that it would only take a person thinking a ZEF is human life and worthy of rights makes it a reality they are comparable.

that describes me and in reality that makes your assumption not true.
3.) correct
4.) and like i said i simply dont see it, i see no logic, facts, or reasoning to compare the two since on an individual level its ONE life vs Two and a slaver is not inside a person.
5.) i agree, gross assaults on ONE person or life that are both against the law. I see the clear reason behind that
6.) true and they would be hard pressed to say why they disagree with your explanation of " similar in regards to their evilness. " They would have to make a different comparison all together to place them different.
7.) no, im simply going by the exact words that were written, the only one that guessed and assumed at intent was you. I went by the words. spo there was no strawman. again if he wants to ADD to his words he is free but anything else is assumption.
8.) i agree it was clear and this is why i addressed at such and never said they were physically the same.

the level of evilness was related to ethics, unless his ethics ignores the fact that abortion deals with right to life of TWO vs slavery which is one i can only go by his words. ANd if thats the case again he can clear add to his statements and clear his statement up and if the addition makes the comparison reasonable i bet id agree.
9.) also already pointed out and as i have explained, you are mistaken, i simply went by his words and nothing else.
 
nope
I view the ZEF as a human life, i dont know anybody that doesnt
I view it worthy rights, i have stated this over and over again. In fact if it was up to me it would be legislated to grant SPECIFICALLY the ZEF rights and like all rights it would have to be decided when and how they conflict with the rights of others what is to be done.
I do NOT support person hood at conception though because that would simply negate the rights of the mother to extremely.

and since there is no factually way to grant equal rights to the ZEF and the woman something in the middle should be decided on.

so back on point, lastly until slaves are inside another human being no its not the same and the way its used is intellectually dishonest and nothing but hyperbole

now if one wants to say they are comparably, simply because they dont like them, thats fine by me but we know thats not the comparison trying to be made

when slavery is brought up we all know how the comparison is being made or at least the ball park compassion is being made and since slaves aren't inside another human being which is HUGE fundamentally

so without explanation pointing to a reality based and factual comparison they will factually be different on premise and foundation and again unless explained in rational i will continue to always laugh when somebody compares abortion to slavery, or Hitler of the killing of jews since they are factually different, its simply a failed straw man appeal to emotion based on nothing but hyperbole.

Well, I see a ZEF as a possibility for a human life and alive (like any cell in ones body is alive) but not a human life or human being. And the only one with rights in that early part of the pregnancy is the woman who is carrying that ZEF.

There can never be equal rights for the ZEF or the woman, the rights in the early part of the pregnancy should rest solely with the woman. It is always one or the other that has the rights, sharing those rights are impossible to achieve.
 
What's so bad about that?

Nobody's forcing anybody to become a biological parent either. If you don't want to get pregnant use protection. If you happen to get pregnant give it up for adoption. I don't see what's wrong with that.

It's very disrespectful IMO to minimize what women deal with during a pregnancy or raising a child they arent prepared for. I posted this elsewhere (so it doesnt necessarily apply to you, it's just an explanation):

Lursa said:
Again you minimized IMPORTANT life choices for a woman as 'conveniences.' Do you tell your kids that their education is just an inconvenience and it doesnt really matter? College, job training, developing a career, developing the discipline to go into a job every day, all just inconveniences? Or are those the things that parents ENABLE and teach their kids so that they can go out and be successful in life?

How about raising the kids she already has? Are less money and time devoted to them just inconveniences for those kids? (60% of women getting abortions already have at least one child). And yes, maintaining a peaceful & secure home where the parents get along IS important to current and *future* children, so maintaining a stable domestic relationship is much more than an inconvenience.

You completely diminish women and their right to pursue happiness...to live their future and make the most of it.

And of course there are the very real risks to her life or lifelong health:

Again, the minimization of the risks to women.

Deaths in childbirth on the rise in the US:

Why are so many U.S. women dying during childbirth? : News

From the article:

"the rate hovers around 15 deaths per 100,000 births"

"each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death."

"The rate of severe complications during and after delivery have also doubled in the last decade, according to a 2012 federal study. Near-misses, where a woman nearly dies, increased by 27 percent."

"Deaths from stroke are also on the rise. A recent CDC study shows pregnancy-related strokes increased by 50 percent in 2006-2007, compared with 1994-1996."


They are not all predictable or preventable. That's total BS.

No stranger or government has ANY right to demand that a woman take these risks if she does not want a child.
 
Let's focus on the first part of your response. You say it's not my decision to make. That's a libertarian argument. If we were all consistently libertarian, I would buy "it's not your decision" as a valid justification. The reality is, though, we are not.... far from it.

The government takes your property in spite of the fact that there are those who would say it's not yours to take. The government mandates that you cannot sell your kidney on ebay, in spite of the fact that it's your kidney. The government tells you that you can't smoke crack cocaine, in spite of the fact that it's your life.

The fact is, we get in each other's business all the time. We aren't libertarians. Therefore the libertarian argument to justify abortion just isn't very strong. If we as a society deem abortion to be destructive to society as a whole, we have every right to regulate it.

Your property is something entirely different than your body. You are talking about possessions where I am talking about the integrity of your body and your right to decide what happens inside your body. If you are idiotic enough to want to remove your kidney and you find a doctor that is willing to do it, be my guest. If you however want to do it to sell it, then the government may interfere because that is not meddling with the integrity of your body but with trade laws and rules.

The government has made the ownership of crack cocaine illegal because it is their right to make illicit drugs illegal. That is also not interfering with the integrity of your body but with regulating the use and abuse of controlled substances.

Forbidding an abortion is interfering with the integrity of the body and the steward of that body (the woman) to decide what happens inside her body.
 
It's very disrespectful IMO to minimize what women deal with during a pregnancy or raising a child they arent prepared for.

I think to terminate a pregnancy minimizes that a lot more. You're taking the gift of life and saying "no thanks." That can't be right.
 
Pro-life personally, but I vote pro-choice.

I will never have an abortion but I don't see any good that comes from jailing a mother for getting one
 
I think to terminate a pregnancy minimizes that a lot more. You're taking the gift of life and saying "no thanks." That can't be right.

WHat 'gift?' Someone has to recognize a gift. It may never even BE born. So of course it should not come before the woman...a fetus reducing a woman to a 2nd class citizen?
 
1.)Well, I see a ZEF as a possibility for a human life and alive (like any cell in ones body is alive) but not a human life or human being.
2.) And the only one with rights in that early part of the pregnancy is the woman who is carrying that ZEF.

3.)There can never be equal rights for the ZEF or the woman
4.) the rights in the early part of the pregnancy should rest solely with the woman.
5.) It is always one or the other that has the rights, sharing those rights are impossible to achieve.

1.) its not a possibility, it is factually human(adj) life
depending on the stage it is also factually a human being (fetus)
2.) correct, thats how it factually is now and thats the way i would want it to stay in general when you say "early part"

and i say in general because i totally support double murder for a person that kills a pregnant woman

3.) correct this is a FACT
4.) i agree with this opinion
5.) correct this is a fact
 
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