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Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason

  • yes

    Votes: 59 48.0%
  • no

    Votes: 64 52.0%

  • Total voters
    123
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

An employer shouldn't be allowed to fire people for any reason.Because an employer can fire a person because he or she is different race,different political leaning, about to retire,wants to replace with a newer cheaper worker or some other ****ty reason under the guise they just felt like firing that person.The only reasons a company should be allowed to fire an employee is if that employee is not doing their job right, the company is going under or if that employee's job is going to be done by a machine.
And if an employee quits a job without notice and without sufficient cause, that employee should be forced to compensate his employer for damages. Seems fair.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

Oh, you want to ban certain thought?

Sure. Why not? I'd love to be able to ban people from thinking of paedophilia, torture, abuse. Wouldn't you?

Or does your absurd political slant mean you'd rather the world suffer so you can be 'free'?
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

How about firing because the employee refused to do something which violates the law? Or violates moral or religious principles?

So if you proposition sex to one of your female employees and she turns you down, you should have the right to fire her?

You make a good point. I'll amend my position. So long as it is not in violation of the law. However, if it were not against the law and that were the reason then I'd be okay with it. Why? Because it's my company. I'm not saying this would make me a good employer, I'd be a complete asshole for firing someone for that. But still, my company means my risk. There would certainly be consequences. A smart business owner wouldn't get in that position to begin with.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

Just remember, the same people that claim businesses only care about profit are the same people that claim they will forgo profit for racist or sexist reasons. These people are not to taken seriously.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

Sure. Why not? I'd love to be able to ban people from thinking of paedophilia, torture, abuse. Wouldn't you?

Nope, i would never support thoughts being criminal.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

Nope, i would never support thoughts being criminal.

How childish.

Anyway, it doesn't matter -- this is all beside the fact.

You must agree that it can't be legal to fire people for being black, or gay, or Muslim, right?
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

I think an employer should have to tell you why they terminate you and it should be truthful, as best as can be determined. If they fire you for being unpleasant to be around, then that is valid to me.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

Sure. Why not? I'd love to be able to ban people from thinking of paedophilia, torture, abuse. Wouldn't you?

Or does your absurd political slant mean you'd rather the world suffer so you can be 'free'?

How does your absurd political slant propose to "ban" people from thinking certain things?
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

How childish.

You mean "waaaaaaaaah he isn't thinking in a way i like, throw him in jail"?
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

True, but then there is no one to help protect your job, so same result..

There is someone to protect my job. That would be me. Don't need a club for that either.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

How does your absurd political slant propose to "ban" people from thinking certain things?

I don't. If I could, somehow, prohibit people from thinking of paedophilia, rape, etc., then I would -- but no one can do that. It's a moot point.

The whole argument is a strawman that Scatt is putting up to avoid explaining why he or she doesn't think laws protecting people from discrimination are a good idea.

But that's okay -- I can spoil the ending for you, because it'll take a while to get it out of Scatt: The reason is, Scatt is absurdly conservative and probably believes that America is under siege from liberals attempting to impoverish the white middle-class male in favour of immigrants of various ethnicities, sexual preferences and religions.

In other words, Scatt is a bigot -- a racist, a homophobe, and most likely a Christian fundamentalist. And this person doesn't like laws that protect those mildly dissimilar to him or her.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

And if an employee quits a job without notice and without sufficient cause, that employee should be forced to compensate his employer for damages. Seems fair.

Who gets to show what actual damages the loss of that one employee did to a company? The employer? With their money and team of lawyers against a single employee? And who decides what is sufficient cause? Plus, what if there are extenuating circumstances where a person can't help but quit without notice? Most employees cannot afford a lawyer, especially if there are circumstances where they had to quit their job, while most employers, especially those that would employ the most people, can easily afford a team of lawyers to crucify a former employee.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

You make a good point. I'll amend my position. So long as it is not in violation of the law. However, if it were not against the law and that were the reason then I'd be okay with it. Why? Because it's my company. I'm not saying this would make me a good employer, I'd be a complete asshole for firing someone for that. But still, my company means my risk. There would certainly be consequences. A smart business owner wouldn't get in that position to begin with.
I like the way you've amended your position, but asking an employee for sex is not against the law. If your daughter's boss asks her to have sex and she turns him down because he's a creepy old man, you're okay with your daughter losing her job and no longer being able to provide for her family?

I understand the desire to remove problems for an employer, but the problem is how power is so often used inappropriately. Those who complain about government interference don't seem to understand government interference usually occurs because someone abused the lack of regulation.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

I don't. If I could, somehow, prohibit people from thinking of paedophilia, rape, etc., then I would -- but no one can do that. It's a moot point.

I cannot speak for Scatt so I cannot say the intention there, but I don't think you can prohibit a person from acting any more than you can from thinking. The government spends billions on dollars attempting to prevent people from ingesting certain substances, but has utterly failed. They have certainly created a large prison population from the fight, but drug use has increased. The prohibition of alcohol was an utter failure. Every government on the face of the planet has prohibited murder for all of human history, but that has not ceased to exist.

So while you may find it ideal to prohibit someone from discriminating in an "evil" manner, it is no less a pipe dream than preventing someone from thinking those things.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

I cannot speak for Scatt so I cannot say the intention there, but I don't think you can prohibit a person from acting any more than you can from thinking. The government spends billions on dollars attempting to prevent people from ingesting certain substances, but has utterly failed. They have certainly created a large prison population from the fight, but drug use has increased. The prohibition of alcohol was an utter failure. Every government on the face of the planet has prohibited murder for all of human history, but that has not ceased to exist.

So while you may find it ideal to prohibit someone from discriminating in an "evil" manner, it is no less a pipe dream than preventing someone from thinking those things.

You seem like an intelligent fellow, so I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt here. Respectfully, I think you're committing a logical all-or-nothing fallacy. It is true that the prohibition on murder hasn't stamped it out entirely -- but that's not to say that murder being illegal hasn't prevented a lot of it from happening! Imagine if it were legal to murder. Preposterous, I know, but surely you can agree that there would be a lot more of it in such a world?

Secondly, if murder were legal, there would be no legal recourse for those disadvantaged by murder -- upset your father's employer decided to murder him? Tough luck, but murder's legal.

Discrimination can't be stamped out entirely, but making it illegal and providing an avenue for legal action against those suspected of undertaking discriminatory action goes a long way to lessening its impact.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

How about firing because the employee refused to do something which violates the law? Or violates moral or religious principles?

The first is likely illegal, depending on what's being asked, but the second, sure, why not? No one has a right to have a job. So long as what is being asked is not illegal, I see no problem with an employer terminating an employee for refusing to do the job they were hired to do.

So if you proposition sex to one of your female employees and she turns you down, you should have the right to fire her?

That's outrightly illegal, therefore no. Yeah, I know that wasn't aimed at me, but there you go.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

The first is likely illegal depending on what's being asked,
But that's the point of this thread, is it not? Giving employers freedom to hire/fire for any reason?

but the second, sure, why not?
See next statement.

That's outrightly illegal, therefore no. Yeah, I know that wasn't aimed at me, but there you go.
It's not outright illegal, it's not even sort of illegal. If I'm a boss, and I go to my employee and say "Hey, I think you're sexy, let's go back to my office and tear one off" and she refuses, then nothing illegal has happened. If I then fire her because I'm embarrassed or mad or whatever, then nothing illegal has happened. If I made a condition of her employment (and getting paid) her having sex with me, then yes, that's probably illegal. But simply asking for sex and getting mad/embarrassed about it is not.

So are you okay with a woman being fired because he boss tried to have sex with her and was refused (a moral and sometimes religious position)?
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

But that's the point of this thread, is it not? Giving employers freedom to hire/fire for any reason?

For any reason that doesn't violate existing law, yes.

It's not outright illegal, it's not even sort of illegal. If I'm a boss, and I go to my employee and say "Hey, I think you're sexy, let's go back to my office and tear one off" and she refuses, then nothing illegal has happened. If I then fire her because I'm embarrassed or mad or whatever, then nothing illegal has happened. If I made a condition of her employment (and getting paid) her having sex with me, then yes, that's probably illegal. But simply asking for sex and getting mad/embarrassed about it is not.

So are you okay with a woman being fired because he boss tried to have sex with her and was refused (a moral and sometimes religious position)?

It's absolutely illegal, you need to look into sexual harassment laws. Companies loose billions of dollars every year in civil lawsuits over sexual harassment.

Try again.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

It is true that the prohibition on murder hasn't stamped it out entirely -- but that's not to say that murder being illegal hasn't prevented a lot of it from happening! Imagine if it were legal to murder. Preposterous, I know, but surely you can agree that there would be a lot more of it in such a world?

Legality is nothing more than the codification of social norms. Murder, even if it were not prohibited, would not be more common because it would still be considered immoral by the vast majority of the population. Supposing murder was not declared illegal (not the same thing as being legal, mind you), it would not detract from the ability of potential victims to deter and counter attempts at murder.

Discrimination is really no different. Despite a million laws against it, people will always discriminate against other people because it is a basic part of human nature to do so. Suppose you were the hiring manager at a distribution warehouse and needed to hire a forklift driver. Would you hire the person who had three years forklift experience or the person with no forklift experience? Obviously the one with experience. You have just discriminated on the basis of forklift driving experience.

I realize that it sounds silly, but this is because the term "discrimination" has taken on a negative connotation in today's world of political correct hysteria. Discrimination is how every individual chooses a mate, who to associate with, which products to purchase, which job to pursue. In short, every aspect of life is determined through discrimination.

When a person discriminates in a manner offensive to another, it is certainly distasteful, but why should the behavior be prosecuted? So a business only wants to hire black actors and display black programs and even go so far as to call his channel Black Entertainment Television. So what? Anyone who finds that offensive will not contribute money towards that venture and he will have to gamble his success on the hopes of enough people who are similarly bigoted as himself. So a business wants to hire only people who believe in the Catholic faith and only allow customers who similarly follow the Catholic faith and even goes so far as to call his business a Catholic church. So what? Those who don't believe in the Catholic faith will not give money to his venture.

So goes for people who hate whites, Latinos, Asians, Arabs, men, women, children, blondes, redheads, disabled people, and any other factor you may deem distasteful. By denying a person the ability to be open about their biases, you force them under the surface where they can fester and become violent. Prohibition and southern reconstruction are excellent examples of this.

But once again, the lack of legislation prohibiting an action does not imply legality. The appropriateness of an action is determined by social convention and only sometimes further codified into law (in many cases law is actually in contradistinction to social convention and is largely ignored).
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

For any reason that doesn't violate existing law, yes.
...I don't think you understand what I meant.

It's absolutely illegal, you need to look into sexual harassment laws. Companies loose billions of dollars every year in civil lawsuits over sexual harassment.

Try again.
I literally just slapped my forehead after reading your post. It is not illegal for a man to ask a woman to bed. For you to claim it is is beyond absurd. Furthermore, we're discussing this thread under the idea employers can fire for ANY REASON they wish.

I will not try again, I tried quite well the first time. Perhaps you ought to try again.
 
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Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

I have to think in the context of "Does the owner/employer" have the right to fire anyone they want and I think they should have that right. It changes in the Corporate context and I don't think so in that case because of too many middlemen.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

It's not outright illegal, it's not even sort of illegal. If I'm a boss, and I go to my employee and say "Hey, I think you're sexy, let's go back to my office and tear one off" and she refuses, then nothing illegal has happened. If I then fire her because I'm embarrassed or mad or whatever, then nothing illegal has happened. If I made a condition of her employment (and getting paid) her having sex with me, then yes, that's probably illegal. But simply asking for sex and getting mad/embarrassed about it is not.

Oh I don't think you can claim nothing illegal happened, that would be up to the jury and the evidence presented. More likely you'd take a plea deal, because going to court is very expensive, and it would undoubtedly be very embarrassing. Who has more to lose, the employee or the business owner? If you have deep pockets, you're quite the juicy target too.

You make sexual advances on a direct report at work, and then you do it in the office? You better have a good legal team if she (or he) decides it was harassment. Your interpretation of the events are just one side....

And if you FIRE the person when they reject your sexual advances, I would bet on the prosecution.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

I literally just slapped my forehead after reading your post. It is not illegal for a man to ask a woman to bed. For you to claim it is is beyond absurd.

Considering your absurd ignorance on the subject matter, I find that laughable.

Sexual Harassment
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

I don't. If I could, somehow, prohibit people from thinking of paedophilia, rape, etc., then I would -- but no one can do that. It's a moot point.

Except you support thought crime laws.
 
Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

1.)Yes, but then the law would not mean anything.
2.)All the boss has to say is 'she told me to 'f' off, so I fired her' (whether it was true or not) and he gets around the law.
3.)IMO, making a law that makes it illegal to fire someone strictly because they are pregnant would open up a whole can of worms.
4.) And as far as I am concerned, there are too many laws as is.
5.)Besides, all the woman has to do is tell the press that she was fired and that she is a pregnant woman who desperately needs her job. No boss that does not want terrible publicity is going to fire a pregnant woman unless he/she has one heck of a good reason. Just let market forces give this woman job security...not yet another law.
6.)And finally, I think the government is involved in our lives FAR too much as it is - telling private businesses who they can and cannot fire is, IMO, none of the government's business.
7.)But, each to their own.

1.) no the law would be doing exactly what it is supposed to, you cant fire her for ONLY being pregnant
2.) no, then she could sue and he would have to prove it etc pay court costs
3.) it already exists
4.) this i agree, all the stores in PA are breaking the law that dont have places to tie up my horse but im fine with discrimination laws
5.) this could happen now without the law. and it should be a "heck of a good reason" to fire someone :shurg:
Poor excuses dont make a law unworthy, discrimination laws are good ones they protect rights.
6.) in general its not and the government doesnt get involved they only get involved when they are protecting rights which is their job
7.) this is true but i side with rights
 
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