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Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

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Peter Grimm

Peter Grimm

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The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.

Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.

My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
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I would divest the two from each other.
 
Good to both.
 
I think that even though they may help ensure positive ends, it is irrational to adopt either ideology.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
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Like everything in life, it depends on the application. If one supports the country with too high a level of moral certainty, than one may not question the morality of individual decisions. That can be dangerous.

Alternatively, one can care too little and be too critical as well, without realizing that no nation is anywhere close to perfect.

The best balance I have found is simple honesty. America is a great country, but it can do a lot of things better. Our medical system has been in shambles for decades with prices too high and outcomes too low. Our education system needs serious work. Our Ginii numbers are way off. Stuff like that. On the other hand, we have a ton of natural and cultural resources that are the envy of other nations. Our military is da bomb.
 
tacomancer said:
Like everything in life, it depends on the application. If one supports the country with too high a level of moral certainty, than one may not question the morality of individual decisions. That can be dangerous.

Alternatively, one can care too little and be too critical as well, without realizing that no nation is anywhere close to perfect.

The best balance I have found is simple honesty. America is a great country, but it can do a lot of things better. Our medical system has been in shambles for decades with prices too high and outcomes too low. Our education system needs serious work. Our Ginii numbers are way off. Stuff like that. On the other hand, we have a ton of natural and cultural resources that are the envy of other nations. Our military is da bomb.
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Why is our military "da bomb?" I guess attacking other countries in offensive wars makes us the bomb?

I personally think nationalism and patriotism are for fools. Any soldier who puts his life on the line and doesn't even get paid well for it is a sucker, in my opinion. You ever see these politicians sending their own kids out to the front lines? Not gonna happen.

Politicians are greedy and self-serving. They don't care about you so you don't owe them a thing. But maybe I'm just cynical.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Why is our military "da bomb?" I guess attacking other countries in offensive wars makes us the bomb?
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In terms of power and flexibility, none other comes close.

Peter Grimm said:
I personally think nationalism and patriotism are for fools. Any soldier who puts his life on the line and doesn't even get paid well for it is a sucker, in my opinion. You ever see these politicians sending their own kids out to the front lines? Not gonna happen.
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This view surprises me, given your self labelled lean. I can perfectly well understand the motivations of a soldier and while you may characterize them as fools, most of them would do what they do for you (and for them too) anyway, I am sure.

Peter Grimm said:
Politicians are greedy and self-serving. They don't care about you so you don't owe them a thing. But maybe I'm just cynical.
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I agree with this with very few exceptions, such as Ron Paul or Elizabeth Warren.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
Click to expand...

They are two different things, and not universally bad but they can be in certain aggregate amounts.
 
Peter Grimm said:
You think one is good and the other bad? They kind of go hand-in-hand in my opinion but go ahead and expound if you wish.
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I would view nationalism (which imbues in its' adherent a belief in the inherent inferiority of the other) as a negative, and patriotism (which imbues in its' adherent instead an appreciation for the fine things that generations before have bequeathed him) as a positive.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Any soldier who puts his life on the line and doesn't even get paid well for it is a sucker, in my opinion.
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Reminds me of my John Stuart Mill.

You ever see these politicians sending their own kids out to the front lines? Not gonna happen.
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So, of course, you voted for John McCain, whose son at the time was a Lance Corporal in the Marine Corps Infantry?
 
tacomancer said:
In terms of power and flexibility, none other comes close.
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Yeah, that's true enough.


tacomancer said:
This view surprises me, given your self labelled lean. I can perfectly well understand the motivations of a soldier and while you may characterize them as fools, most of them would do what they do for you (and for them too) anyway, I am sure.
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That's the company line. Not sure I buy it. Most of them are just dumb kids who don't know any better so they sign up. When the bullets are flying, I doubt they give a damn about you or me, they just want to get home.

It's old politicians sending naive pseudo-children off to war while keeping their own kids safe at Harvard, then we cry our crocodile tears and thank them for their service. If you really care about those kids don't send them to an Arab land to die. The oil ain't worth it.


tacomancer said:
I agree with this with very few exceptions, such as Ron Paul or Elizabeth Warren.
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Yeah, there's always an exception. Too bad Ron Paul is bat**** crazy. I guarantee if you ran an IQ test on Ron Paul he'd test off the charts. Genius that is. But he's bat**** crazy.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
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I never had much use for either, myself, though I don't at all begrudge someone else's desire to feel patriotic and even nationalistic about their country.
 
I see jingoism as bad, but not necessarily nationalism or patriotism.

Worse than jingoism to me are the attitudes that are so morally relativistic and reactive as to represent it's near opposite. If people cannot see that Western liberalism IS better than some of the knuckle-dragging backwardness that passes for culture in much of the world, they are even worse than the "America, love it or leave it" types.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Yeah why is that? I disagree, but I have yet to hear a good argument FOR nationalism so I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.
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Nationalism is a broad concept. While people tend to think of oppressive regimes and international instability, it is also a stabilizing force and a force for self-determination. Without nationalism, it becomes immensely difficult for groups around the world to see themselves as being able to (or justified in) self-rule. When rule is established, nationalism continues its stabilizing presence, though it too can descend into exaggeration. Nevertheless, the notion that one group finds themselves unique or modestly to moderately superior is hardly in of itself a bad thing. Rather, it is quite common and can even be good.
 
However righteous are one's intentions, such as xenophobia, misplaced confidence and lethal apathy are but a step away. I don't require any national identity to embrace higher ideals. No one country's greater or worse than any other, in my view. Especially if we're conceding potentialities. A country's greatness is defined by the vision and attitude of its people. Not its momentary influence or material resources.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Yeah, that's true enough.

That's the company line. Not sure I buy it. Most of them are just dumb kids who don't know any better so they sign up. When the bullets are flying, I doubt they give a damn about you or me, they just want to get home.

It's old politicians sending naive pseudo-children off to war while keeping their own kids safe at Harvard, then we cry our crocodile tears and thank them for their service. If you really care about those kids don't send them to an Arab land to die. The oil ain't worth it.
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interesting point

Peter Grimm said:
Yeah, there's always an exception. Too bad Ron Paul is bat**** crazy. I guarantee if you ran an IQ test on Ron Paul he'd test off the charts. Genius that is. But he's bat**** crazy.
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I agree he is crazy, but I also think he is sincere.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
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Patriotism and individuality aren't mutually exclusive. Patriotism is essentially the same concept as family and community, on a grand scale, and doesn't imply that one supports everything that one's nation does, which results from government action. I consider myself patriotic, although I don't support our having gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I consider myself devoted to family and friends, although I don't agree with everything they do at all times.
 
There's nothing wrong with patriotism and nationalism is small to moderate doses. As with anything, extremes are usually fraught with problems and negative actions.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
Click to expand...



I agree.

I think 'nationalism' and 'patriotism' are words that politicians trundle out every time they want to get the ignorant masses to back them on something they otherwise could not justify.


Note - I guess we can agree on some things...;)
 
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Peter Grimm said:
The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
Click to expand...

Ideologies are like clothing. It depends on how you wear them.

If you don't have good sense and morals and no concept of honor and humanity, nationalism is probably one of the worst things that could happen to you and everybody else.

Problem is, nationalism exerts the most attraction on people who lack good sense and morals and have a diminished concept of honor and humanity.
 
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Morality Games said:
Ideologies are like clothing. It depends on how you wear them.

If you don't have good sense and morals and no concept of honor and humanity, nationalism is probably one of the worst things that could happen to you and everybody else.

Problem is, nationalism exerts the most attraction on people who lack good sense and morals and have a diminished concept of honor and humanity.
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I equate nationalism with foolishness and gullibility. They get you to blindly follow orders for flag and country when all you're doing is serving their interests and lining their pockets, rather than your own.

John Kerry won two purple hearts, George W Bush's daddy hid him away in the Coast Guard away from all the action. Who was more willing to send your kids off to war? People sent their kids to fight and die for president bush but he did not do the same when it was his time.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I equate nationalism with foolishness and gullibility. They get you to blindly follow orders for flag and country when all you're doing is serving their interests and lining their pockets, rather than your own.

John Kerry won two purple hearts, George W Bush's daddy hid him away in the Coast Guard away from all the action. Who was more willing to send your kids off to war? People sent their kids to fight and die for president bush but he did not do the same when it was his time.
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That's the same as saying there's some good and some evil. That'll be true regardless of political system or ideology; humans distill their fallibility into everything they do or make.

It's one reason I roll my eyes when people talk about term limits, as if the wicked won't find another angle to exploit the system.
 
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