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adults and responsibility

where does the main issue lie?

  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21

Slartibartfast

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In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.
 
Unfortunately, since the 60s, we've liberalized the nation to such a degree that everyone has unreasonable expectations and a distinct lack of responsibility for their own lives. They expect someone else to solve all the problems and look to the government for freebies and handouts because they're too lazy to do it themselves.

This is a massive, massive problem.
 
If I had to pick one I'd go with "misplaced expectations".

Using your example of the 401(k), a lot of people don't take full advantage of the plan. That may be because they don't think they can afford the contributions or because they are leery of the ultimate benefit but both of those are, in my opinion, due to misplaced expectations. People figure that they "need" that extra $100/mo to pay their cable bill instead of saving for their retirement. They also don't understand that the funds in the 401(k) are invested in other stuff so they let it sit instead of looking for other options and opportunities.

If you put $10k/yr into a 401(k) with a 2% employer match and an average rate of return of 4% you'll have well over half a million dollars in 30 years and that ain't chump change.
 
Unfortunately, since the 60s, we've liberalized the nation to such a degree that everyone has unreasonable expectations and a distinct lack of responsibility for their own lives. They expect someone else to solve all the problems and look to the government for freebies and handouts because they're too lazy to do it themselves.

This is a massive, massive problem.

What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
 
If I had to pick one I'd go with "misplaced expectations".

Using your example of the 401(k), a lot of people don't take full advantage of the plan. That may be because they don't think they can afford the contributions or because they are leery of the ultimate benefit but both of those are, in my opinion, due to misplaced expectations. People figure that they "need" that extra $100/mo to pay their cable bill instead of saving for their retirement. They also don't understand that the funds in the 401(k) are invested in other stuff so they let it sit instead of looking for other options and opportunities.

If you put $10k/yr into a 401(k) with a 2% employer match and an average rate of return of 4% you'll have well over half a million dollars in 30 years and that ain't chump change.

that might fit under insufficient education, but then again, you can lead a horse to water ...
 
Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.

And you don't see how this could result in the very problems he described?

Looking out for "number one" is all well and good, but there has to be some room in the equation for notions like "civic duty" and collective identity as well. By and large, our current society lacks this, precisely because of the amount of emphasis we put on "individualism" above all else.

This has caused innumerable problems, and created a sense of unjustifiable entitlement among much of our population.

After all, what's good for the individual isn't necessarily good for society in general. A lot of times, even what an individual thinks is good for themselves turns out to often be anything but on a long term basis.

Most human beings are hardly what you could describe as being "wise" or "careful," in case you haven't noticed. :lol:
 
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In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.

Knowledge and education would be a step forward. Unfortunately, common sense is not a purchasable commodity.

People have been inundated through the years with the idea that programs funded by the government will be there to catch you when you fall, or retire. Unfortunately, people didn't also learn that they were supposed to be supplemental programs, in addition to your own planning and saving.

People started shirking the responsibility of planning for themselves, and started with the 'I deserve syndrome' of wanting material things right now, and lost sight of the fact they had to be paid for at some point. Certain systems put into place to help those who had sudden, overwhelming completely unforeseeable situations arise, became the norm in filing bankruptcy, and people still didn't learn.

The government, IMO, has done nothing to actually educate people about financial matters, and instead throws a finger out there pointing to the corporate world as the monster under the bed, when in reality, it's the lack of knowledge and understanding that has driven most people further and further into the financial hole.

It is individual responsibility that will eventually bring this country back into the realm of the Great Nations. Not government spending, not government handouts or programs. The individual, learning about being responsible for their own actions and welfare.
 
that might fit under insufficient education, but then again, you can lead a horse to water ...

That's kind of what I'm saying. People's expectations of their 401(k) earnings is often unrealistic. They look at the results after a year and say "well, it's really not doing anything" and then they stop contributing. Under the scenario I put up after 10 years you'd only have a $20k gain so I can see the frustration but in 15 years it turns into a $50k gain and after 20 years it's a $100k gain. After 30 years you'd be close to doubling your contributions and that's at a rather modest rate of return.

The expectation shouldn't be for an immediate benefit, it should be for a long term benefit.
 
In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.
A lot of the problem with people cashing out retirement plans today has to do with the age at which they entered. There are three levels of risk to any retirement plan and the age of the individual has a lot to do with accumulation, as does the back end structure of any retirement plan. The risk levels are low, moderate, and high(and they have similar growth potential in relationship to the risk). The basic idea is that a person who has more time can take less risk overall, a person closer to retirement needs to take more risk, and in either case inflation protection should be built into any retirement plan(which includes taking small bites of the account rather than a lump sum payout).

Then there is tax deferred versus income based investment. A deferred plan is only taxed as income, so if a person leaves money into an account and draws a monthly or quarterly payout whatever is left will gain tax deferred until it then becomes income. My guess is that people hurting now were either not given good advice and did not take the appropriate risks, or they didn't put enough in, didn't take the plans, or, like what happened to a few of my family members, took a large hit during one of the two bubbles but because of their closeness to retirement couldn't build it back up.

I don't think that it's "just" irresponsibility but I think that plays a role "somewhere", whether that was the financial planner or the retiree is hard to tell.
 
And you don't see how this could result in the very problems he described?

Looking out for "number one" is all well and good, but there has to be some room in the equation for notions like "civic duty" and collective identity as well. By and large, our current society lacks this, precisely because of the amount of emphasis we put on "individualism" above all else.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly advocate a sense of community. I believe that anyone who wants the benefits of society needs to make his contribution. I shiver a little bit, though, when I read phrases like 'collective identity'.

This has caused innumerable problems, and created a sense of unjustifiable entitlement among much of our population.

After all, what's good for the individual isn't necessarily good for society in general. A lot of times, even what an individual thinks is good for themselves turns out to often be anything but on a long term basis.

Most human beings are hardly what you could describe as being "wise" or "careful," in case you haven't noticed. :lol:

I believe that no-one can tell me 'what's good for society'. That's a road that spirals into disaster. I believe that society is healthiest, the community strongest, when the rights of individuals come first. 'What's good for society' will naturally follow.
 
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that might fit under insufficient education, but then again, you can lead a horse to water ...
I will give you a perfect example. A potential client years ago "took a walk" after I spent about three days putting together health coverage for him. I got the numbers to less than 300$ and a moderate deductible which should have been more than affordable for a dual income family with no children, the guy overextended, everything he and his wife owned carried a debt and they couldn't afford the premium. The sad thing is, should one of them fallen ill, they would have been in a financial catastrophe and everything would have evaporated anyway, but, like you stated "you can lead a horse...........".
 
That's kind of what I'm saying. People's expectations of their 401(k) earnings is often unrealistic. They look at the results after a year and say "well, it's really not doing anything" and then they stop contributing. Under the scenario I put up after 10 years you'd only have a $20k gain so I can see the frustration but in 15 years it turns into a $50k gain and after 20 years it's a $100k gain. After 30 years you'd be close to doubling your contributions and that's at a rather modest rate of return.

The expectation shouldn't be for an immediate benefit, it should be for a long term benefit.
I think it comes from "permanent employee" mentality, not an insult, but some people think like an employee when in their finances should think like an "employer". Lots of households plan for the month, when the smarter plan is to plan for the year, then when the year is done, plan for five, then ten. Successful businesses don't shutter because they are only making a small initial profit, likewise savvy investors learn to wait out lean returns until the big payoff.
 
Don't get me wrong, I strongly advocate a sense of community. I believe that anyone who wants the benefits of society needs to make his contribution. I shiver a little bit, though, when I read phrases like 'collective identity'.

Patriotism, Christendom, Pax Romana, etca, etca. I see no problem with such concepts, so long as they are not taken to irrational extremes.

The current problem, unfortunately, is that much of the Western World seems to have taken exactly the opposite approach. They simply do not care about anything beyond their own (often shallow, hedonistic, and self-serving) petty desires. They have little to no allegiance to anything other than themselves.

I believe that no-one can tell me 'what's good for society'. That's a road that spirals into disaster. I believe that society is healthiest, the community strongest, when the rights of individuals come first. 'What's good for society' will naturally follow.

We will have to wait and see. I would not, however; say that current trends give me much hope where such matters are concerned. :lol:
 
I will give you a perfect example. A potential client years ago "took a walk" after I spent about three days putting together health coverage for him. I got the numbers to less than 300$ and a moderate deductible which should have been more than affordable for a dual income family with no children, the guy overextended, everything he and his wife owned carried a debt and they couldn't afford the premium. The sad thing is, should one of them fallen ill, they would have been in a financial catastrophe and everything would have evaporated anyway, but, like you stated "you can lead a horse...........".

I am not in the best situation either, after spending nearly 15 years building a life, only to start over with basically nothing this time last year.

while things are working out for me pretty nicely (got a good place to live, decent job, starting a new family, etc) I got a lot of other things I need to continue to work on. What this means is that I am going back to college in an attempt to increase my income in a degree that fits well with my experience. However, I am fortunate in that I am able to. What concerns me is those who never got the break I did. For most people, what I went through is the start of a downward spiral. I will say that I put a ton of work into my life over the last year, but I also had plenty of fortunate breaks as well, nobody can do it alone (in my case, I tend to go pray for something, then either forget about it or convince myself it wont happen, go focus on something else only to realize later, I got exactly what I ask for, I never seem to be able to learn, I am like the worst religious dude, ever). the sad fact is that many people are simply too poor to save for retirement these days. Probably the best thing we can do as a society is admit some level of defeat and roll back some laws and lower expectations to have a life style that is closer to the 50s, but in many communities, that's become illegal in our optimism.

This is what worries me about a lot of the programs where we leave things to the citizenry. studies have shown that we are by nature short term thinkers and I honestly think programs like 401k are simply incompatible with human nature and a lot of the goals we have for society. as a whole, humans suck at liberty and always will. Its unfortunate and i wish it wasn't the case, but i also believe that no amount of education, reeducation, pointing out moral failings, or any other purely informational tactics will ever amount to squat. I would love to take your view of humanity, but I think it is simply unrealistic and parts of the human experience will never achieve the levels of responsibility and ownership that many conservatives expect. Nor has it ever truly occurred in history when people take more than a passing glance.

all in all, my POV sucks, but I think its accurate. Pretty much, I believe that retirement is a thing of the past. Even a seemingly normal thing that would have been a slam dunk ten years ago, like going back to college like I am planning to do carries huge risks even for jobs that are waiting to be filled, like hard core engineering jobs.
 
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Patriotism, Christendom, Pax Romana, etca, etca. I see no problem with such concepts, so long as they are no taken to irrational extremes.

The current problem, unfortunately, is that much of the Western World seems to have taken exactly the opposite approach. They simply do not care about anything beyond their own (often shallow, hedonistic, and self-serving) petty desires. They have little to no allegiance to anything other than themselves.



We will have to wait and see. I would not, however; say that current trends give me much hope where such matters are concerned. :lol:

I know your concerns.
Not wanting to open Pandora's box, but I think the current trends that cause concern are society drifting away from solid liberal values. To engineer is human, and there's been too much 'management' of society. We need to return to basic principles and adhere to them and not try to guide and correct and supervise and administer so much.
 
I am not in the best situation either, after spending nearly 15 years building a life, only to start over with basically nothing this time last year.

while things are working out for me pretty nicely (got a good place to live, decent job, starting a new family, etc) I got a lot of other things I need to continue to work on. What this means is that I am going back to college in an attempt to increase my income in a degree that fits well with my experience. However, I am fortunate in that I am able to. What concerns me is those who never got the break I did. For most people, what I went through is the start of a downward spiral. I will say that I put a ton of work into my life over the last year, but I also had plenty of fortunate breaks as well, nobody can do it alone. the sad fact is that many people are simply too poor to save for retirement these days. Probably the best thing we can do as a society is admit some level of defeat and roll back some laws and lower expectations to have a life style that is closer to the 50s, but in many communities, that's become illegal in our optimism.
You're doing it the right way, you had a setback and are handling it. The couple in my example were just "not planning" with everything else going for them, not planning these days might was well be planning to fail.

This is what worries me about a lot of the programs where we leave things to the citizenry. studies have shown that we are by nature short term thinkers and I honestly think programs like 401k are simply incompatible with human nature and a lot of the goals we have for society. as a whole, humans suck at liberty and always will. Its unfortunate and i wish it wasn't the case, but i also believe that no amount of education, reeducation, pointing out moral failings, or any other purely informational tactics will ever amount to squat. I would love to take your view of humanity, but I think it is simply unrealistic and parts of the human experience will never achieve the levels of responsibility and ownership that many conservatives expect. Nor has it ever truly occurred in history when people take more than a passing glance.
The programs IMHO are fine, the problem is people not taking professional advice, every single one of the plans has a fund manager, and I don't think I've ever dealt with an organization that didn't have a benefits department to advise their employees. Unfortunately, some people don't take advice, but I am of the opinion that you just can't protect people from themselves. Don't get me wrong, if there were a better answer I'd be all for it, but my own experience has been that people can be their own worst enemy no matter how much you try to help, when I was the professional I would take hours of my time to present a solution to clients only for them to object on silly grounds like "Well, I was planning on getting a new Suburban this year, maybe next year" or things of that nature. Clients tended to have a plan, but it wasn't a plan for growth, more like a plan for acquisition which can be a short term gain with a harsh long term loss.


all in all, my POV sucks, but I think its accurate. Pretty much, I believe that retirement is a thing of the past. Even a seemingly normal thing that would have been a slam dunk ten years ago, like going back to college like I am planning to do carries huge risks even for jobs that are waiting to be filled, like hard core engineering jobs.
The only thing we can do is make a plan, plans aren't guarantees though.
 
The programs IMHO are fine, the problem is people not taking professional advice, every single one of the plans has a fund manager, and I don't think I've ever dealt with an organization that didn't have a benefits department to advise their employees. Unfortunately, some people don't take advice, but I am of the opinion that you just can't protect people from themselves. Don't get me wrong, if there were a better answer I'd be all for it, but my own experience has been that people can be their own worst enemy no matter how much you try to help, when I was the professional I would take hours of my time to present a solution to clients only for them to object on silly grounds like "Well, I was planning on getting a new Suburban this year, maybe next year" or things of that nature. Clients tended to have a plan, but it wasn't a plan for growth, more like a plan for acquisition which can be a short term gain with a harsh long term loss.

I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin here. The brain is pretty much wired to look to short term risks and pleasurable gains. In tribal times, such behaviors would keep us alive. our love of sugar and sweet foods is a great example, in nature that's hard to come by, but not any more, so as humans we regress to the LCD (as we always do) and make ourselves fat. In more complex societies, its a detriment. The problem is that humanity only has some much autonomy and will power from its own instincts, thus I believe any successful social engineering, like 401k or whatever we come up with in our future needs a bit of pokeyoke to account for our natures. We are too optimistic about ourselves and our abilities. The ideal of human choice is misunderstood, I think, because its based on philosophical grounds from 400-500 years ago and not modern neuroscience, which is painting a far different picture.
 
I know your concerns.
Not wanting to open Pandora's box, but I think the current trends that cause concern are society drifting away from solid liberal values.

That would depend upon how one defines the term. ;)

I take it that you are referring to the word in its more "classical" form? If so, that is an idea I can absolutely get behind.

I believe that some of the ideology's premises are flawed (which is a large part of the reason for our current conundrum in the first place), but its intentions are undeniably noble. The same cannot be said for many of its more modern aberrations.

To engineer is human, and there's been too much 'management' of society. We need to return to basic principles and adhere to them and not try to guide and correct and supervise and administer so much.

I agree. Less intervention in public matters is often more. Our society will ultimately sink or swim on its own merits.

Frankly, it is pretty damn hard to successfully "supervise and administer" public attitudes and cultural ideas anyway. Far more interested regimes than our own have tried and failed miserably. :lol:
 
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And you don't see how this could result in the very problems he described?

Looking out for "number one" is all well and good, but there has to be some room in the equation for notions like "civic duty" and collective identity as well. By and large, our current society lacks this, precisely because of the amount of emphasis we put on "individualism" above all else.

This has caused innumerable problems, and created a sense of unjustifiable entitlement among much of our population.

After all, what's good for the individual isn't necessarily good for society in general. A lot of times, even what an individual thinks is good for themselves turns out to often be anything but on a long term basis.

Most human beings are hardly what you could describe as being "wise" or "careful," in case you haven't noticed. :lol:

Mr. Thomas. Your predestined mission in life must surely be to enlighten humanity about its darkness and its hopeless state of futility. How do you wake up knowing that humanity's journey offers nothing more than a bleak, sterile, and pointless existence?
 
Mr. Thomas. Your predestined mission in life must surely be to enlighten humanity about its darkness and its hopeless state of futility. How do you wake up knowing that humanity's journey offers nothing more than a bleak, sterile, and pointless existence?

I speak only the pragmatic truth. Human beings do best when working towards something greater than themselves.
 
I speak only the pragmatic truth. Human beings do best when working towards something greater than themselves.

but tend to only do so en masse for relatively short periods of time. at least historically speaking.
 
That would depend upon how one defines the term. ;)

I take it that you are referring to the word in its more "classical" form? If so, that is an idea I can absolutely get behind.

I believe that some of the ideology's premises are flawed (which is a large part of the reason for our current conundrum in the first place), but its intentions are undeniably noble. The same cannot be said for many of its more modern aberrations.



I agree. Less intervention in public matters is often more. Our society will ultimately sink or swim on its own merits.

Frankly, it is pretty damn hard to successfully "supervise and administer" public attitudes and cultural ideas anyway. Far more interested regimes than our own have tried and failed miserably. :lol:

I'm not sure what 'classical' means, exactly- I only know what my father and my experience have taught me.
'Less is more', yes, that pretty much sums up what I want of government in my life.
Cheers.
 
I speak only the pragmatic truth. Human beings do best when working towards something greater than themselves.

Well, Mr. Thomas. I'll perfunctorily ponder your "pragmatic truth". But my sense of skepticism enhances many times fold when somebody implies that they are the bearer of "truth" in any capacity.
 
What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.

Well, unless we're talking about e-cigs, baby formula, Happy Meals and sodas over 16 ounces. ;)
 
but tend to only do so en masse for relatively short periods of time. at least historically speaking.

True, but some cultures seem to be better suited towards producing those kinds of feelings than others. To use US history as just one example, "manifest destiny" lasted for well over 100 years.

Besides a few notable exceptions which weren't even particularly long lived, the only thing many people (especially of the younger generation) really seem to get worked up over these days is banal rabble rousing and the threat of impending benefit cuts.
 
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