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Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

Multiculturalism or Melting pot?

  • Multiculturalism

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Melting pot

    Votes: 21 63.6%

  • I can't make up my mind

    Votes: 1 3.0%

  • Other

    Votes: 7 21.2%
  • Total voters
    33
MoSurveyor said:
I think it's a little of both.

The social base - "freedom, justice, and the American Way" LOL! - has to stay pretty homogeneous or we're no longer a country. (That's not to say there's can't be gradual change!) Everyone has to believe in and accept the same basic principles of freedom and law because that's our foundation in the West.
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Who gets to decide what those norms are? I think you're well-intentioned but I believe you're wrong here. An adult has a right to believe whatever he wants politically and any attempt to force others to think the way you do is misplaced.
 
Northern Light said:
I see the point in the OP of parent cultures being displaced, and I don't think it has to do with the method but rather the speed of immigration. Really, in most developed places, immigration has no rhyme or reason. Globalization has caused a huge influx of foreigners into the more prosperous regions, without adequate time to let the parent cultures adjust. It's really quite disruptive.
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What's disruptive is people like you who have a closed-minded attitude toward other cultures. If you would accept these immigrants as they are you wouldn't have these problems.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Every American citizen is 100% American. Just because they don't talk, look, or act like you doesn't mean they're any less "American" than you are.
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I am, a first generation of immigrants. And I now what I am talking about.
 
loader said:
I am, a first generation of immigrants. And I now what I am talking about.
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So am I. I was born in Sweden. If you're an American Citizen then you're 100% American. You're not less American just because you were born somewhere else.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I don't have time for this kind of bigotry. Certain people are just going to be hateful I guess...
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I enjoy the Catholic Church even if I don't really believe in much of it. I respect it more than the protestant faiths, anyway. That being said, they are all part of the flock, nay? We don't get to keep only those that are the best and brightest. We take the label for all of those who at least at base value subscribe.
 
Fiddytree said:
I enjoy the Catholic Church even if I don't really believe in much of it. I respect it more than the protestant faiths, anyway. That being said, they are all part of the flock, nay? We don't get to keep only those that are the best and brightest. We take the label for all of those who at least at base value subscribe.
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That has nothing to do with anything and I find your attempt to ridicule the Christian Faith to be infantile and underhanded. Go find a thread in the philosophy forum and talk about spaghetti monsters or something. This thread is about immigration and I'd like to keep it that way.
 
Peter Grimm said:
LOL no they weren't. When did Jesus say "love thy neighbor, and then put him in a concentration camp."

Oh that's right, he didn't.
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Ignorant of history, huh? Not at all surprised.
 
Peter Grimm said:
That has nothing to do with anything and I find your attempt to ridicule the Christian Faith to be infantile and underhanded. Go find a thread in the philosophy forum and talk about spaghetti monsters or something. This thread is about immigration and I'd like to keep it that way.
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I have respect for the Christian faith. Bad deeds were done by plenty of Christians over the centuries. You deal with it, and you still label them Christians. That being said, I didn't really start the tangent. That was you with the all-too-easy Nazi remark.

You could have easily responded to the many other posts of mine about the melting pot or multiculturalism, but aside from your rather long and sympathetic response regarding outsiders (it still doesn't quite solve the overarching dilemma multiculturalism poses with regard to dominant culture), you were more than willing to move onto Nazi's (albeit, rather incorrectly).
 
Peter Grimm said:
Not at all. Now quit trying to derail a thread about immigration.
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I'm not, I'm not the one ignoring the fact that Hitler was a self-professed Catholic, that the Nazis marched around with belt buckles that said "God With Us" or that the Catholic Church smuggled Nazi war criminals out of Germany following WWII on Red Cross Visas. This is all undeniable historical fact. You want to pretend otherwise.
 
Fiddytree said:
I have respect for the Christian faith. Bad deeds were done by plenty of Christians over the centuries. You deal with it, and you still label them Christians. That being said, I didn't really start the tangent. That was you with the all-too-easy Nazi remark.

You could have easily responded to the many other posts of mine about the melting pot or multiculturalism, but aside from your rather long and sympathetic response regarding outsiders (it still doesn't quite solve the overarching dilemma multiculturalism poses with regard to dominant culture), you were more than willing to move onto Nazi's (albeit, rather incorrectly).
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First, there is no dilemma regarding multiculturalism outside that which the bigots create themselves. If people in general were more accepting of other cultures rather than instinctively trying to subdue anyone who is different from them, we wouldn't have any dilemma at all.

It's an ugly fact of human nature, and we see it manifest itself in other forms such as racism, intolerance to other social classes, genders, etc. However, in all these cases, it's the bigots that need to be reformed, not the victims.

Same exact thing with immigration.

As for the Nazi's, I simply meant that Nazis were intolerant of anyone who was unlike them. Cephus' response mirrored that intolerance by suggesting that everyone should conform to the American way. That the Nazis simply eliminated anyone who didn't conform whereas Cephus would like to forcefully integrate them matters little.... that would be like saying it's a poor analogy because the Nazi's spoke German and Americans don't.
 
Cephus said:
I'm not, I'm not the one ignoring the fact that Hitler was a self-professed Catholic, that the Nazis marched around with belt buckles that said "God With Us" or that the Catholic Church smuggled Nazi war criminals out of Germany following WWII on Red Cross Visas. This is all undeniable historical fact. You want to pretend otherwise.
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I'm just not interested in the debate since it has nothing to do with the OP.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I'm just not interested in the debate since it has nothing to do with the OP.
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In other words, you've got nothing. That's alright, I didn't expect you to be able to back up your words anyhow. Back to the thread then, especially since you're the one that derailed it in the first place.
 
Peter Grimm said:
First, there is no dilemma regarding multiculturalism outside that which the bigots create themselves. If people in general were more accepting of other cultures rather than instinctively trying to subdue anyone who is different from them, we wouldn't have any dilemma at all.

It's an ugly fact of human nature, and we see it manifest itself in other forms such as racism, intolerance to other social classes, genders, etc. However, in all these cases, it's the bigots that need to be reformed, not the victims.

Same exact thing with immigration.

As for the Nazi's, I simply meant that Nazis were intolerant of anyone who was unlike them. Cephus' response mirrored that intolerance by suggesting that everyone should conform to the American way. That the Nazis simply eliminated anyone who didn't conform whereas Cephus would like to forcefully integrate them matters little.... that would be like saying it's a poor analogy because the Nazi's spoke German and Americans don't.
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Cultural pluralism, which the American system, and darn near what most self-expressed multiculturalists actually believe, merely states that one can keep portions of one's cultural identity, if it acknowledges and adapts to the dominant cultural system. Ie. Those who espouse multiculturalism in the United States typically mean that the government, institutions, and social workings of the country may be dominant, but if we include and respect the differences of one's former homeland, we can have a more harmonious and democratic way of life. Multiculturalism in its most strident form, makes no such move toward accepting the traditional hegemonic social underpinnings.

Ethnic bigotry may have some or quite a lot to deal with it, but in many ways, this is also highly overstated.

As for the Nazi's, I simply meant that Nazis were intolerant of anyone who was unlike them. Cephus' response mirrored that intolerance by suggesting that everyone should conform to the American way. That the Nazis simply eliminated anyone who didn't conform whereas Cephus would like to forcefully integrate them matters little.... that would be like saying it's a poor analogy because the Nazi's spoke German and Americans don't.
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No. It's a bad analogy because the Nazi's actually did not agree with Cephus's point of view. Would you honestly see a good Nazi accepting the notion that "maybe if we incorporate the tribal songs of Africa into our artistic heritage, we can strengthen the Reich's cultural righteousness"? How well can Nazi Germany accept reading Confucius in good, character building German schools? Perhaps when they read philosophy, the prideful Germans would enjoy reading Spinoza. Really, the Nazi regime was about promoting white, non-Jewish Germanic heritage, not incorporating numerous cultures into a superculture.
 
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Fiddytree said:
Cultural pluralism, which the American system, and darn near what most self-expressed multiculturalists actually believe, merely states that one can keep portions of one's cultural identity, if it acknowledges and adapts to the dominant cultural system. Ie. Those who espouse multiculturalism in the United States typically mean that the government, institutions, and social workings of the country may be dominant, but if we include and respect the differences of one's former homeland, we can have a more harmonious and democratic way of life. Multiculturalism in its most strident form, makes no such move toward accepting the traditional hegemonic social underpinnings.

Ethnic bigotry may have some or quite a lot to deal with it, but in many ways, this is also highly overstated.
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Any degree of trying to force one's beliefs on another is inhumane. No adult human being has that right morally and, per our constitution, thankfully they don't have it legally either. Forced immersion is unethical as well as illegal.

Bigotry is very real and cannot be overstated, it's a fundamental part of human nature. You simply deal with it by trying to educate the bigots that there's nothing wrong with brown skin, there's nothing wrong with people speaking Spanish in the grocery store, you're not owed anything because your family was on the Mayflower, etc.



Fiddytree said:
No. It's a bad analogy because the Nazi's actually did not agree with Cephus's point of view. Would you honestly see a good Nazi accepting the notion that "maybe if we incorporate the tribal songs of Africa into our artistic heritage, we can strengthen the Reich's cultural righteousness"? How well can Nazi Germany accept reading Confucius in good, character building German schools? Perhaps when they read philosophy, the prideful Germans would enjoy reading Spinoza. Really, the Nazi regime was about promoting Germanic heritage, not incorporating numerous cultures into a superculture.
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The point was simply that the belief that only a certain cultural norm is acceptable is shared by Cephus and the Nazis. Only their methods of eliminating diversity differ. No need to get in to it any more than that.

Diversity is an asset, not a dilemma.
 
Gardener said:
Multiculturalism as a political doctrine is predicated upon double standards and these double standards are a product of overcompensation brought on by guilt. Instead of the same standards being applied to all people, multiculturalist dogma demands that different standards apply to some, and inevitably these double standards support practices that are extremely illiberal in nature. It is really quite racialist when it gets right down to it as certain groups are afforded greater leeway when it comes to their lack of respect for human rights.

What galls me is the Orwellian nature of the multiculturalist leftists being the chief impediment to the advancement of human rights to all people by supporting knuckle-dragging backwardness that is so extremely conservative in nature as to be off the charts. Hypocrites all.
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Examples or quotes to back up these claims?
 
Peter Grimm said:
What's disruptive is people like you who have a closed-minded attitude toward other cultures. If you would accept these immigrants as they are you wouldn't have these problems.
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Whether or not I'm tolerant has little to do with an immigration policy that has no rhyme or reason, and is causing social problems in the urban centers.

Like I said, it's the influx that's the problem, not immigration itself.
 
Peter Grimm said:
So am I. I was born in Sweden. If you're an American Citizen then you're 100% American. You're not less American just because you were born somewhere else.
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Like it or not, yes, you are less American. Recent ignorant Republican rhetoric aside, you can't be the Pres if you're not a natural born citizen.
 
Canell said:
Please, choose sides. :notlook:

I for one who wants different cultures but I also think they should stay apart, not mix together in a Tower of Babylon. For example, If one wants to imigrate to a country, one should adopt the culture, not try to impose his/hers on the locals. What do you think? :)

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Doesn't have to be either adopt the culture or impose your own. There is a middle thing.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Who gets to decide what those norms are? I think you're well-intentioned but I believe you're wrong here.

An adult has a right to believe whatever he wants politically and any attempt to force others to think the way you do is misplaced.
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Essentially, the law dictates the basic structure but to some extent you should learn how those in your community treat each if you want to avoid problems. Where I grew up, for example, it was unacceptable (in most cases) to call the cops on your neighbors without first discussing the problem with them. Obviously, violent crimes and major infractions needed immediate police involvement but those were very rare and usually involved people outside the neighborhood.

I wouldn't want to force anyone to believe the same things I do. What a boring world that would be, all of us the same. That said, see above about local customs. You tread on those at your peril.


I didn't say anything at ALL about politics so why you would mention it is beyond me. Politically, you should be able to believe whatever you want without fear of retribution as long as you're not breaking the law.
 
Fiddytree said:
Cultural pluralism, which the American system, and darn near what most self-expressed multiculturalists actually believe, merely states that one can keep portions of one's cultural identity, if it acknowledges and adapts to the dominant cultural system. Ie. Those who espouse multiculturalism in the United States typically mean that the government, institutions, and social workings of the country may be dominant, but if we include and respect the differences of one's former homeland, we can have a more harmonious and democratic way of life.
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Well put! :thumbs:
 
Northern Light said:
Whether or not I'm tolerant has little to do with an immigration policy that has no rhyme or reason, and is causing social problems in the urban centers. Like I said, it's the influx that's the problem, not immigration itself.
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I would say the abandonment of many urban centers in what many call 'white flight' to the suburbs and a lack of serious career opportunities left behind once that happened is the main cause of social problems in inner cities- that is the part not of the elite 'downtown' sector. Poorer folks don't go to the high-end districts to live- care for the rich folks kids and mow the lawn, but not live.

Seems to me we store poor folks in one place and employ people in others.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The idea that they should assimilate to some arbitrary norm is patronizing and robs them of their god-given dignity.
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But it's you who went to America, America didn't come to you to tell you what to do. That said it's your duty to accept the language and the norms of that society. Don't like it? Good, go back from where you came. If you are a Mexican that has lived a decade in the U.S. and can't say a sentence in English, what American are you? (speaking hypothetically, not you exactly)
As for the "less of American"... I think that if you are bilingual (English + mother tongue) you are less of American. :) If you have British or Aussie accent, you are less of American and so on and so forth. ;)
 
There isn't even a consistent American culture yet ...
 
Canell said:
I think that if you are bilingual (English + mother tongue) you are less of American. :) If you have British or Aussie accent, you are less of American and so on and so forth. ;)
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What tosh! You seem to be equating American culture entirely with Anglo, white American culture. The strength of the US is that it is so much more than that. Monolingualism in any culture is neither desirable nor essential.
 
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