Is minimum wage a lot?

JohnWOlin said:

No and I think a good solution to get the people that would rather rely on welfare off of it is to gradually raise the wage every year starting with a big jump to $9 an hour and end with $12 an hour by 2016.

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It's like they say 6 in one or half dozen in another. Force the government to pay the poor via social services or force small businesses to pay the poor via the minimum wage.

It's all just a big show. Humans take care of other humans. We just do. Even these people who are pretending that they passionately hate poor people. They really don't. They would probably be willing to take money out of their own pocket if they ever seen someone who was genuinely hungry. They just pretend that they hate poor people.

People in our country will continue to maintain survival regardless of the political winds. Sometimes harsh language has to be used to promote a specific political ideology. None of it really matters as much as it seems. When your political ideology isn't applied this doesn't lead to utter and complete destruction. It's just fun to feel that way for some reason.

sawdust said:

I had to tell an employee that the amount of money he made wasn't predicated on his ability to spend it. In truth it was dependent on his ability to make himself indispensable to the company.

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Did he laugh?

vasuderatorrent said:

Did he laugh?

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No and he didn't get a raise either. As I remember he wasn't worth what I was paying him when he asked. I had a manufacturing company by the way and everyone was well above minimum wage.

vasuderatorrent said:

Assuming a 40 hour work week, is minimum wage a lot of money?

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Anyone who says that it is a lot of money is wrong. This isn't a subjective question.

If you are asking whether the minimum wage should be raised, from the perspective of economics, I still say no.

vasuderatorrent said:

I haven't heard them complaining. I hear people complaining on their behalf. These scum are called politicians. A burger flipper has no power to change minimum wage.

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There are plenty of people complaining on their behalf. They're called liberals. Sorry, not impressed.

Federalist said:

You're making stuff up. I haven't offered any economic theories in this thread.

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I may have put forth an hypothesis but no theories. That would have to be something like changing to communism. I didn't do that. In fact, I've said regulated capitalism was the best thing, yet.


Every change in the laws governing the market is an hypothesis that is shown as true or false over time. Yes, you've made several radical suggestions for changes in the laws that govern our economy. Those are what (I assume) you're calling "theories".

Federalist said:

That won't identify anyone whose person or property is assaulted or damaged by the act of offering to pay below a fixed price. There is no identifiable victim, which makes it victimless crime. It is unethical for the government to punish someone for an act that results in no identifiable victim, since such punishment is, in fact, an initiation of aggression.

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May as well start dumping lead back into the water supply. I'm sure it's virtually impossible to identify single victims of lead poising and proving it came from the water. I mean, hell, they could have been chewing on old-fashioned pencils for all we know - at least, I'm sure that's what the lead dumpers will claim in court. Doesn't matter that the incidences of lead poising "just happened" to rise a month after lead was being dumped in the water. It's just a Cosmic Coincidence!!!

Let's go back to dumping hazardous particulates into the air, too. Same story for that, isn't it? Too much wood smoke, too much bar-b-q, too much whatever you want to claim because we can't prove it didn't happen. Can't blame the particulates from ACME factory because you can't prove it in court.

If you can't pin it down to one person with one cause then it must not be a real injury, so we shouldn't do anything about it. It's that kind of dumb-ass attitude that almost killed Lake Erie and sent Los Angeles citizens to the hospitals for years with respiratory problems. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Federalist said:

Nope, ownership means one has the enforceable right to use something. It does not simply mean one "has" something.

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You keep applying modern definitions to ancient ideas and continue to be wrong.

Federalist said:

Yet you can't point to any real example other than in your imagination.

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Plenty of examples of market manipulation by companies and conglomerates with virtual monopolies in the late 1800's. You might want to look up the behavior of Standard Oil for the kind of actions we have now outlawed It's a good example.

Federalist said:

Capitalism can't exist in the absence of secure property rights and individual liberty. What you refer to as "unfettered capitalism" is really lawless chaos, and your use of the term is disingenuous.

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Obviously the South and early America had some issues with that. When, exactly, do you think we became a capitalist country?!?

sawdust said:

I had to tell an employee that the amount of money he made wasn't predicated on his ability to spend it. In truth it was dependent on his ability to make himself indispensable to the company.

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No such thing as "indispensable". There's just replacement cost. Plenty of bodies available at this time.

ethanUNC said:

Anyone who says that it is a lot of money is wrong. This isn't a subjective question.

If you are asking whether the minimum wage should be raised, from the perspective of economics, I still say no.

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Houses cost $25,000 in Laurinburg, North Carolina. Houses cost a lot more in Raleigh, North Carolina. If your mortgage was $149.89 per month you could make it work on the additional $921.37 left over. If your rent is $1,100 per month, you would be required to live off of credit cards as much as possible with a minimum wage income.

Living in Laurinburg, North Carolina is not the same as living in Raleigh, North Carolina. If you have a job, a non-working spouse and 2-3 kids with at least one kid under the age of 6 while living in Laurinburg, you would live a very luxurious life on minimum wage.

In Raleigh, you'd be screwed. Living in an area with affordable housing is not the same thing as being wrong. Your geographic doesn't invalidate your opinion.

Cephus said:

There are plenty of people complaining on their behalf. They're called liberals. Sorry, not impressed.

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The people making minimum wage aren't saying jack squat. That's what I meant. We agree on that. I wasn't trying to impress you. It sounds like you agree with me. The people making minimum wage aren't saying jack squat.

vasuderatorrent said:

The people making minimum wage aren't saying jack squat. That's what I meant. We agree on that. I wasn't trying to impress you. It sounds like you agree with me. The people making minimum wage aren't saying jack squat.

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I don't think I'd say they're silent on the issue but they aren't the most vocal proponents, no. I will agree with you there.

MoSurveyor said:

May as well start dumping lead back into the water supply. I'm sure it's virtually impossible to identify single victims of lead poising and proving it came from the water. I mean, hell, they could have been chewing on old-fashioned pencils for all we know - at least, I'm sure that's what the lead dumpers will claim in court. Doesn't matter that the incidences of lead poising "just happened" to rise a month after lead was being dumped in the water. It's just a Cosmic Coincidence!!!

Let's go back to dumping hazardous particulates into the air, too. Same story for that, isn't it? Too much wood smoke, too much bar-b-q, too much whatever you want to claim because we can't prove it didn't happen. Can't blame the particulates from ACME factory because you can't prove it in court.

If you can't pin it down to one person with one cause then it must not be a real injury, so we shouldn't do anything about it. It's that kind of dumb-ass attitude that almost killed Lake Erie and sent Los Angeles citizens to the hospitals for years with respiratory problems.

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Wow, you're all over the map. Try to focus. We were talking about minimum wage laws. And you remain impotent to identify anyone whose person or property has been assaulted or damaged by the act of offering to pay below the fixed price. It is a victimless crime.

MoSurveyor said:

You keep applying modern definitions to ancient ideas and continue to be wrong.

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Nope. Capitalism cannot exist under a "might makes right" environment. Private ownership of the means of production is predicated on the concept of ownership and property rights.

Your use of the term "unfettered capitalism" describes something that isn't capitalism and is disingenuous.

Yes. The minimum wage is perfect for newbs and students.

Federalist said:

Wow, you're all over the map. Try to focus. We were talking about minimum wage laws. And you remain impotent to identify anyone whose person or property has been assaulted or damaged by the act of offering to pay below the fixed price. It is a victimless crime.

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Just like pollution. You can't point to one person and prove it was ACME's pollution that injured them so we should just let ACME do what they want and damn the consequences for the public.

Federalist said:

Nope. Capitalism cannot exist under a "might makes right" environment. Private ownership of the means of production is predicated on the concept of ownership and property rights.

Your use of the term "unfettered capitalism" describes something that isn't capitalism and is disingenuous.

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Unregulated* capitalism IS a Might Makes Right environment.


*If you're so hung up on "unfettered" then I'll use "unregulated" instead - but it's the same meaning, no restrictions on business at all.



BTW - The new thread on the net neutrality reminded me that in many parts of the country there is an ISP monopoly. Anyone can lay cable lines anywhere (as long as they can buy the easement for it) but many parts of the country have only one cable line and one ISP providing service (the same applies to CTV for that matter). Those companies are usually severely regulated (and rightly so!) by a state agency because of their monopoly.

MoSurveyor said:

Just like pollution. You can't point to one person and prove it was ACME's pollution that injured them.

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This thread happens to be about minimum wage laws, and paying someone below a fixed price is a victimless crime. Nobody's person or property is violated.

Federalist said:

This thread happens to be about minimum wage laws, and paying someone below a fixed price is a victimless crime. Nobody's person or property is violated.

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The same applies to pollution. You can't prove it in court so it must not be a real injury.

MoSurveyor said:

The same applies to pollution. You can't prove it in court so it must not be a real injury.

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A person being paid below minimum wage does not have his person or property damaged in any way. When the state punishes a person for paying someone below minimum wage the state is initiating aggression.

Federalist said:

A person being paid below minimum wage does not have his person or property damaged in any way. When the state punishes a person for paying someone below minimum wage the state is initiating aggression.

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Being payed below the minimum wage is the damage inflicted.

MoSurveyor said:

Unregulated* capitalism IS a Might Makes Right environment.

*If you're so hung up on "unfettered" then I'll use "unregulated" instead - but it's the same meaning, no restrictions on business at all.

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Under a "might makes right" scenario, the strong may take what you own, violating your property rights. Private ownership of the means of production cannot exist in the absence of regulations that protect property rights and ensure that ownership actually means something.

The term "unregulated capitalism" makes as much sense as the phrase "round triangle"

BTW - The new thread on the net neutrality reminded me that in many parts of the country there is an ISP monopoly. Anyone can lay cable lines anywhere (as long as they can buy the easement for it) but many parts of the country have only one cable line and one ISP providing service (the same applies to CTV for that matter). Those companies are usually severely regulated (and rightly so!) by a state agency because of their monopoly.

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Cable companies have competition from satellite internet providers.

Unitedwestand13 said:

Being payed below the minimum wage is the damage inflicted.

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There is no damage inflicted, neither to the body or the property of the employee.

Federalist said:

A person being paid below minimum wage does not have his person or property damaged in any way. When the state punishes a person for paying someone below minimum wage the state is initiating aggression.

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Society as a whole is being damaged, just as it is with pollution. You can't pin either down to one person/one cause but the damage as a whole is still there.

Federalist said:

There is no damage inflicted, neither to the body or the property of the employee.

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There is no provable damage inflicted specifically by ACME's pollution, either, but the result is damage none-the-less.

Federalist said:

Under a "might makes right" scenario, the strong may take what you own, violating your property rights. Private ownership of the means of production cannot exist in the absence of regulations that protect property rights and ensure that ownership actually means something.

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Even in your narrow-minded scenario the only property that needs "protecting" is the means of production - and that only needs protecting from damage and destruction. If it's not destroyed then whoever takes it can still use it for production. Doesn't matter which carpenter wields the hammer, the nail will still get driven into the board.

Federalist said:

The term "unregulated capitalism" makes as much sense as the phrase "round triangle"

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Tell it to Ayn Rand and her disciples ...

When I say "capitalism", I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism—with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.
Ayn Rand - The Virtue of Selfishness (1964)

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Federalist said:

Cable companies have competition from satellite internet providers.

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Which requires phone access - another monopoly in many areas. Take your pick of which monopoly you prefer.