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Should the minimum wage be raised?[W:30]

Should the minimum wage be raised?


  • Total voters
    46
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

I am willing to bet they dont.

So you're saying, all Chinese workers wish their companies would fail so that they would have no job? Really? So that means all Chinese workers are being forced to work there and need liberation from you?
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Then what reason is there for someone to work at all if what they are to be paid does not provide them with what they need? It would be better to simply live off public assistance or to get involved with illegal activity to make a living. The whole point of raising the minimum wage to a livable wage is to get people off public assistance and encourage people to enter the workforce. Corporations should be paying their workers, not tax payers.

That is sadly not historically accurate. The whole point of the minimum wage was to reduce the numbers of social 'undesirables', such as blacks and asians, by keeping them from being able to afford to have and raise families.

I am not even talking about illegal migrant workers, I am talking about legal workers. If we were to deregulate the minimum wage, companies would simply recruit legal workers from overseas on work visas to come to the US and work for them. By raising the minimum wage and making it a living wage, we will encourage Americans that would normally not think about working a lower paying job think about taking the job. Which would lower our unemployment rate drastically and open up jobs americans want to do.

This is also sadly historically incorrect. What you do when you raise the cost of hiring Americans is relatively increase the advantage of hiring non-Americans. That's why we have 50% unemployment among many of our inner-city youth, yet illegal immigrants with similar (or worse) language skills and education can find employment.

The point is to get them off of that. It is much more expensive to us to have them on government assistance then it would be to raise minimum wage $5 or $6 an hour.

No - you do not decrease the cost of government assistance by increasing the number of people on it, which is what increasing the MW would do.

Automated_self_checkout.png


See that machine on the dude's right? That's what a minimum wage job looks like, at $15 an hour.
 
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Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Then you would be hard-put to explain the masses of people ruthlessly competing for those jobs. It is not uncommon for people to have to bribe their way in.


The mistake people always make when discussing early-industrial conditions is to compare them to post-industrial conditions. When the comparison being made by those involved is between industrial conditions and agricultural conditions.

Many of these people are forced into working in these places. A quick google search can probably really enlighten you to some of the crap they are forced to do and why they are there. The information is out there if you are wanting to learn. If you don't and would rather live in your own box then so be it. Noone can force you to educate yourself.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Many of these people are forced into working in these places. A quick google search can probably really enlighten you to some of the crap they are forced to do and why they are there. The information is out there if you are wanting to learn. If you don't and would rather live in your own box then so be it. Noone can force you to educate yourself.

:shrug: you will certainly find plenty of examples of abuse. That's what happens when you get government affiliates running or owning business - they become immune to the regular rule of law.

Which changes the fact that people pour into the cities looking for and competing for these jobs not a whit. It's not for nothing that the big push now is to find a way to move industry inland along China's two major river systems - it's because they are having to compete (and starting to lose) with Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, et. al.; because the people there want those jobs as well, because the alternative (again) is generally subsistance farming.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Then what reason is there for someone to work at all if what they are to be paid does not provide them with what they need? It would be better to simply live off public assistance or to get involved with illegal activity to make a living. The whole point of raising the minimum wage to a livable wage is to get people off public assistance and encourage people to enter the workforce. Corporations should be paying their workers, not tax payers.



I am not even talking about illegal migrant workers, I am talking about legal workers. If we were to deregulate the minimum wage, companies would simply recruit legal workers from overseas on work visas to come to the US and work for them. By raising the minimum wage and making it a living wage, we will encourage Americans that would normally not think about working a lower paying job think about taking the job. Which would lower our unemployment rate drastically and open up jobs americans want to do.


The point is to get them off of that. It is much more expensive to us to have them on government assistance then it would be to raise minimum wage $5 or $6 an hour. If the minimum was at least 24-26k a year, it would greatly reduce the number of people on government assistance. Again, let companies pay workers salaries instead of us tax payers. Some of the largest, most profitable companies in the world pay their workers here in the US the least.



I know, I have seen them. I have lived in the Philippines where I have personally seen and talked to people working on less than $200 a month. Living in homes with no electricity or plumbing. Many families with members who are nearly starving to death and suffering from disease. Yes, I have seen it, and it is not something you want in your city or town. That is the difference between a country where the government is simply unable to help the people and a country where it can.





Yes. Is it perfect, no. But its better they exist then if the did not. Imagine not having something like the food and drug administration around. Who would hold companies responsible for selling harmful products to people? Who would encourage them to modify products for consumer safety in mind and deter them from just looking at the bottom line?



While I don't like that the government bailed out big business, I have yet to decide if it was really the wrong thing to do. When I look at the results from that, the companies that were bailed out paid back the money and are now back on track making profit and employing US workers. If the car industry and banking industry had tanked, our unemployment rate would have taken a big hit and I am not sure if american companies would have been the ones that would have taken up the slack. We could have seen an increase of foreign companies, especially in the car industry, take up that slack which would have left US workers in the wind.

And the military industrial complex is a rediculous tin foil hat theory. We left the industrial age decades ago.



I did not say they served the people more than the corporations, I said that it is the only power we have over them. I would rather have some leverage then none at all. But you are correct, there probably should be more government regulations on companies.

Well, you just answered my question. If you remove the minimum wage and companies refuse to pay them more then they make sitting on their asses...then they will continue to sit on their asses. So the corporations are going to have to pay them enough to get them off the couch...which guarantees that they will be paid (probably) not far from the present minimum wage...which was (more or less) my original point.

But all minimum wage-type jobs are not the same, some are worth more pay then others...and they should be paid differently...not lumped together because of some arbitrary government mandate.

But ALL arguments come down to one thing for me...I simply do not believe how much an employer pays his/her employee is ANY of the government's business (outside of income tax reasons). It is a private business...not a public one. If the employee does not like the pay...quit. If they cannot find a job that pays enough to survive...the government will take care of them.

As I said; no well respected, international human rights organization (that I am aware of) states that a full time job must provide the necessities of life...not even the U.N..
This notion that a company owes an employee a 'living wage' does not exist in either international law or in accepted human rights policies (except by those who want more money for zero extra effort).

You want a higher minimum wage...fine. But saying you are owed one by business is simply not true.
 
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Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Exactly! You favor minimum wage for Chinese workers because you don't want them to have those jobs! For third world countries the only advantage they can offer is cheap, you take that away from them and they have nothing to offer at all.

I favor minimum wage laws for Americans. The Chinese working in outsourced American factories for 22 - 33 cents an hour for 80 hour work weeks is an example why minimum wage laws are a must.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

I favor minimum wage laws for Americans. The Chinese working in outsourced American factories for 22 - 33 cents an hour for 80 hour work weeks is an example why minimum wage laws are a must.

Yes, you nailed it. The only thing keeping our low end workers from 22 cent an hour slave labor jobs is a minimum wage. :roll:
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Yes, you nailed it. The only thing keeping our low end workers from 22 cent an hour slave labor jobs is a minimum wage. :roll:

That is the only reason factories outsource to other countries.So the idea that companies are simply going to pay a worker what they are worth if minimum wage laws are repealed is absurd.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

That is the only reason factories outsource to other countries.So the idea that companies are simply going to pay a worker what they are worth if minimum wage laws are repealed is absurd.

How many workers are even paid minimum wage? Most people aren't. Why am I not paid minimum wage? Why aren't all engineers, for instance, paid the bare minimum at $7/hour? Do you think there might be some other factors at hand?
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

How many workers are even paid minimum wage? Most people aren't. Why am I not paid minimum wage? Why aren't all engineers, for instance, paid the bare minimum at $7/hour? Do you think there might be some other factors at hand?

Because you have choices. People working for minimum wage have 2 choices, work for minimum wage, or live on the street.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Because you have choices. People working for minimum wage have 2 choices, work for minimum wage, or live on the street.

People working for minimum wage do not have access to the various state and federal welfare, housing and other programs?
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Because you have choices. People working for minimum wage have 2 choices, work for minimum wage, or live on the street.

1. That is not accurate. People on minimum wage have many choices of employers, as many jobs start off at minimum wage.

2. However, you are correct that, in the absence of being able to secure employment at the minimum wage, their option is unemployment. That is, in fact, the strongest argument against the minimum wage.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Because you have choices. People working for minimum wage have 2 choices, work for minimum wage, or live on the street.

So your solution is to take the choice away from the Chinese workers by removing their edge in the market and reducing the money flowing into China? How does that help them? Then they just have one option: live on the street.

People working for minimum wage do not have access to the various state and federal welfare, housing and other programs?

I've never met anyone working a minimum age job who lived on the street. Even without assistance, in places like Texas one can get a tiny, extremely modest apartment for 200-300 bucks a month.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

People working for minimum wage do not have access to the various state and federal welfare, housing and other programs?

If you had read my earlier posts, you would have seen that I would rather companies pay employees then the tax payer. If we raised minimum wage to a living wage there would be a lot fewer people on public assistance.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

If we raised minimum wage to a living wage...
Please define the dollar amount for a federal "living wage" that would apply to all regions of the country/the entire citizenry? Thanks much.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Since you referenced it, that community is also facing its own confusing exemptions due to a recent court ruling. Have been following this closely for the same reason you mentioned... because there should be some interesting data. But now... much less of that data.

Link: SeaTac’s $15 minimum wage goes into effect



I'm not of the mind that the Feds should be involved in this at all. Could be wrong.

I like the idea of 50 states running their own little incubators and seeing what works best.

They are already doing this in terms of taxation and the population may be moving as the local tax rates drive the populations around.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

hell no, more skill equals more pay.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Completely disagree. There are people that simply do not have the money or the mind to attend higher education. Not to mention, doing so, may even put them even further into debt. As most who don't have the mind or money to attend higher education usually get worthless degree's and end up working where they are anyway. Maybe in a higher paying position, but generally not making even enough to pay off their student debt which puts them in even a worse economic situation. If we made higher education mandatory and free, there would still need to be people working at the fast food places and in lower income jobs. Those jobs will never disappear and there will always be people trying to live off those wages. The only difference would be that the person salting your fries would be an educated fry salter.

Actually the lower service jobs will disappear eventually as robots are miniaturized. The vending machine for pizza show us that there are no repetitive task jobs which can't be completed by a robot. And we may have a different idea of education. I don't see High Education, which usually means college/university, as the only educational venture. There are vocational and technical schools too. So if you mean all of these then I misunderstood you. But if you mean just college then you are wrong.

Further, I don't think there are people who can't educate themselves. If you truly believe that there are some people out there that can't get any smarter than to work as a burger flipper at Wendy's then I don't know what to say. It is untrue but it is also a sad way of looking at people. But I don't believe you. People can always learn and can always get better. As to the money, debt is sometimes needed. Plus, they can slowly educate themselves and use their own money if they save enough should they not want debt. There are always options.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Actually the lower service jobs will disappear eventually as robots are miniaturized. The vending machine for pizza show us that there are no repetitive task jobs which can't be completed by a robot. And we may have a different idea of education. I don't see High Education, which usually means college/university, as the only educational venture. There are vocational and technical schools too. So if you mean all of these then I misunderstood you. But if you mean just college then you are wrong.

Further, I don't think there are people who can't educate themselves. If you truly believe that there are some people out there that can't get any smarter than to work as a burger flipper at Wendy's then I don't know what to say. It is untrue but it is also a sad way of looking at people. But I don't believe you. People can always learn and can always get better. As to the money, debt is sometimes needed. Plus, they can slowly educate themselves and use their own money if they save enough should they not want debt. There are always options.

Thats a good 30-50 years off. Until then, we need companies to be responsible employers and pay people instead of enslave them. Why punish those who are WILLING to be productive individuals? The same people get pissed about people living on public assistence, don't want to reward people who do become a part of productive society. It just puzzles me.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

If we raised minimum wage to a living wage there would be a lot fewer people on public assistance.
Can you define the dollar amount (or as close as you think it should be) for a federal "living wage" that would apply to all regions of the country/the entire citizenry?
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

That is sadly not historically accurate. The whole point of the minimum wage was to reduce the numbers of social 'undesirables', such as blacks and asians, by keeping them from being able to afford to have and raise families.



This is also sadly historically incorrect. What you do when you raise the cost of hiring Americans is relatively increase the advantage of hiring non-Americans. That's why we have 50% unemployment among many of our inner-city youth, yet illegal immigrants with similar (or worse) language skills and education can find employment.



No - you do not decrease the cost of government assistance by increasing the number of people on it, which is what increasing the MW would do.

Automated_self_checkout.png


See that machine on the dude's right? That's what a minimum wage job looks like, at $15 an hour.



All you need to do to understand what a $15.00 minimum wage looks like is check yourself out at the self serve centers in the retailers of today from the gas pumps to the grocery stores.

There is a small leap from being able to electronically check myself out to them being able to assure that everything in the bag has been scanned.

The whole scanner and security arrangements could be easily purchased and administered at a far lower cost than the 20 29-hour employees that it would take to staff the register for a year.

If the minimum wage is passed at an extreme level, every time a cash register purchase is considered, the self check out option is going to be considered as well. Every time. If only 50% of the decisions are to make the switch, the impact will be dramatic.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Because you have choices. People working for minimum wage have 2 choices, work for minimum wage, or live on the street.



Another option is to continue to accept an allowance from mom and dad or keep mowing lawns and shoveling walks in the neighborhood.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

cpwill;1062740664 [img said:
http://businessillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Automated_self_checkout.png[/img]

See that machine on the dude's right? That's what a minimum wage job looks like, at $15 an hour.

Not really an accurate comparison because Wal-mart has been doing that for years and my state goes by the federal minimum wage. There is regular cash registers in that picture and by the looks of that machine it only takes credit cards, the ones at wal-mart take both cash and credit.
 
Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Not really an accurate comparison because Wal-mart has been doing that for years

You are correct. Walmart has been doing that for years. Specifically, they have been doing it for about 4 or 5 years. Since the last time we raised the minimum wage.

Do you ever wonder where all those workers who used to work the checkout lines, but were suddenly unaffordable went? Do you really think that through the magic of the desire to have a free lunch (which is what a MW Hike is), they all found higher paying jobs elsewhere?

Because I worry that instead it look something like this:

minwage1.jpg

?


The result isn't exactly unpredictable:

From the National Bureau of Economic Research:

...A sizable majority of the studies surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other important conclusions emerge from our review. First, we see very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects. Second, the studies that focus on the least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming evidence of stronger disemployment effects for these groups....


:( MW Hikes hurt poor people. On top of the economic inefficiency and the restrictions on personal freedom, that is why they should be opposed.

There is regular cash registers in that picture and by the looks of that machine it only takes credit cards, the ones at wal-mart take both cash and credit.

:shrug: So you cut your lines in 1/3 and leave one guy instead of 3 to cover the cash transactions. Since you're paying more, you can also then hire someone better at math and with greater computer skills, meaning that you fire all three of your former low-education, low-experience-labor workers, and hire one higher-earning, higher-education-higher-skills worker. Then you can train him to also do some basic trouble-shooting for the card-reading machines, and you've saved money.

Sucks, of course, for the low-income, low-education, poor, who are now all unemployed. But hey. At least none of us are morally offended by them exchanging their labor for cash anymore.
 
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Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

How many workers are even paid minimum wage? Most people aren't.

About 3.6 million actually paid at or below minimum wage.43.6 million Americans are living in poverty, which means they most likely make barely above minimum wage.



Walmart Employs 1% Of America. Should It Be Forced To Pay Its Employees More? - Business Insider
CHART OF THE DAY: 43.6 Million Americans Living In Poverty Is The Highest Number Ever Recorded - Business Insider


Why am I not paid minimum wage? Why aren't all engineers, for instance, paid the bare minimum at $7/hour? Do you think there might be some other factors at hand?

Have you ever considered that since minimum wage acts as the bottom an employer may pay someone your wages and the wages of every engineer in this country are paid more than 7$ an hour?
 
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