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Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

  • Total voters
    32
Starbuck said:
What is America, especially where immigrants (legal or otherwise) are clueless about?
For starters, our actual economic system (before the progressives decided we need to become a western european utopia)


Calling Massachusetts anything other than highly educated is rather absurd. Even in the worst school districts, education is valued in MA, and on the whole I'd argue that it's a relatively successful state. Especially considering the extreme lack of natural resources available to its population.

I'm from MA. I assure you, it's overstated, and the numbers are fixed and trumped by an extremely corrupt public school system. Teachers editing standardized tests numbers in the hundreds per year to boost numbers. I'm sure the media doesn't bring that up. Sharks don't eat sharks. As for economically, businesses are leaving in droves north of the Border to NH and down to Texas due to our asinine tax policies. The only reason Bio/Med companies stick around is because they get to pluck the best and brightest out of our Ivy leagues and MIT.

Numbers and facts:

CBP budget = $11+ billion per year.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's ridiculous. Privatize it. Cost effectivity.
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And there you have it.
 
Starbuck said:
I do understand that no-one is ever, nor should they be, hard-line for any one political party.

However, I do feel that a non-liberterian approach to immigration enforcement, really bleeds over into almost every other facet of the political ideology that is libertarianism.
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My concern is financial. I don't hold hate that the right has. This isn't a 'murica thing, this is a we are basically broke thing. We can't afford anyone else at the table right now. Pure numbers.
 
Starbuck said:
If there's one thing I value, it's honesty.

Fair enough.



Fiscally speaking, I'd argue just the opposite. The way I see it, our military/ defense industrial complex is likely the most damaging fiscal activity of our government. Historically speaking, our largest influxes of immigrants have come at times of global catastrophe.

This is about the only area, where I get all "flag wavy" and see the United States as that beacon of hope. The text on the Statue of Liberty has always struck a chord with me.
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Our military budget is insane. 100%. Foreign military aid, the foreign military bases we have...all unnecessary. Our blue water navy and ridiculous air superiority is enough to keep anyone at bay. It's all posturing and $$ keeping that machine running. We don't need 3/4 of it to remain the most terrifying military force this world has ever seen.

That text still means something, but at the time our country was still being ran in the way that it was originally designed. We are a shadow of our former selves now, and we don't have the means to support that ideology. I wish we could. We simply don't have the resources.

I think we agree on most levels ideologically, and mentally I remain Libertarian through and through, but the money required is immense. It will be as big of a disaster as our military budget is.
 
MichaelJR said:
And there you have it.
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  1. Our economic system is relatively simple. . . capitalism. What's not to understand, and from everywhere I've been that seems to be the system at work there also. Hell, there's hardly anywhere in the world that doesn't operate on the same (interchangeable) economic system.

  3. Funny thing is, I also grew up in MA. Having lived-in and worked in other parts of the country since leaving ten years ago, I'd say that MA schools measure up pretty well to the rest of the nation. I'm pretty sure the public education I received in MA has helped me quite a bit, it's not perfect, but seems to do pretty well. And as for the state on whole, education is a very critical industry, along with research and finance. MA has taken a strong hold on these profitable industries, and it matters not why they stay, so long as they do. I'm pretty sure its the market keeping all of those revenue generating businesses in the state.

  5. Privatizing border patrol won't help the cost, look at health care. . . some times futile efforts should simply be stopped.
 
MichaelJR said:
Our military budget is insane. 100%. Foreign military aid, the foreign military bases we have...all unnecessary. Our blue water navy and ridiculous air superiority is enough to keep anyone at bay. It's all posturing and $$ keeping that machine running. We don't need 3/4 of it to remain the most terrifying military force this world has ever seen.
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These are sad facts, beyond that I've never seen the need for us to even remain the most terrifying military force this world has ever seen anyway? I've read plenty of books and studied plenty of papers, and don't ever recall that being one of the goals set forth by the founders.

I remember being on patrol in SE Asia, listening to some Captain give a speech about why Singapore should be happy to live under American protection from China. I kept thinking how absurd this whole venture was, why were a bunch of US ships running around selling our protection to a nation that doesn't really need it, from a nation that isn't really attacking anyone? The answer: $$$$

MichaelJR said:
That text still means something, but at the time our country was still being ran in the way that it was originally designed. We are a shadow of our former selves now, and we don't have the means to support that ideology. I wish we could. We simply don't have the resources.
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I agree that it sounds financially daunting, to allow open borders. However, I promise that it is the opposite. People are like water, or any other natural phenomenon, and in that respect it is always going to be impossible to enforce the border 100%. It's like the war on drugs, totally futile.

Our money would be better spent actually enforcing civility & laws on the local level. Return to community policing, and get away from this militarized (and expensive) occupation that we have now.

I think we agree on most levels ideologically, and mentally I remain Libertarian through and through, but the money required is immense. It will be as big of a disaster as our military budget is.[/QUOTE]
 
Starbuck said:
This is about the only area, where I get all "flag wavy" and see the United States as that beacon of hope. The text on the Statue of Liberty has always struck a chord with me.
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Some prose at that makes you feel all giddy does not necessarily make good policy.
 
Muhammed said:
Some prose at that makes you feel all giddy does not necessarily make good policy.
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I feel giddy because it is good policy. . . which just so happens to align with "American" ideals.
 
Muhammed said:
Please explain the reasoning for your answer.
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Immigration has always been a substantial boon for our innovative sectors, making up as much as half of our talent in some fields, and even in less skilled demographics immigration is a substantial force behind our economy as well. Let's not forget this is a nation of immigrants.

Unfortunately, such people are already starting to leave the US again, or cross it off their list of potential settling points. We aren't staying competitive in the majority of technical or lucrative fields, and there simply isn't as much opportunity here for the best and the brightest anymore. They can do just as well or better in their own countries, or some other developed nation.

What a huge mistake that is can be demonstrated with an iPhone. Most people assume the money for iPhones basically goes to China. Not true. China just assembles it, for the most part. And they pay their workers nothing, so they don't really take a big cut.

You know who gets a lot of money? Germany. They design and manufacture some of the parts. You know who gets almost no money? The US. We don't do stuff like that anymore.
 
I think we should change our official language to Spanish, teach Spanish in schools, force all kids to read Don Quixote in Spanish before graduating high school and grant citizenship to any citizen of Mexico, Cuba or Canada just for applying.

Let's face it. The United States culture sucks. Give me, give me, give me and give me more. I deserve it for three reasons. Number 1...... Well.... just give it to me. It's mine.

A huge influx of Mexican immigrants could offer a positive influence on our culture. I think immigration standards could remain the same for other countries. I just think it should be as simple as filing out an one page form for Mexican, Cuban and Canadians to move into our country.
 
Anti-immigration attitudes come and go, but they have mostly been rather faulty in logic. I believe in acculturation, but I also believe in a healthy amount of immigrants coming into the country. Nativism is only useful for nationalistic pride, but it should never be so much part of the public policy of the U.S.
 
Yes. I still believe in this saying "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Yes. I still believe in this saying "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"
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Sure sure, but what about scientific data which may suggest that a healthy amount of immigration is actually beneficial? Xenophobia has a limited use and can be immensely detrimental to maintain our global hegemonic power, which is why true believers in it should never have power.
 
Fiddytree said:
Anti-immigration attitudes come and go, but they have mostly been rather faulty in logic.
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I've got an anti-immigration attitude. Could you elaborate on why you would think that any of my logic is faulty? Point out a specific logical fallacy I've made or something. Let's discuss.

Also anti-immigration attitudes should come and go. For instance, during a booming economy when there is a shortage in the labor force, allowing immigration is a good policy. However, at this point in time the exact opposite is true. There is no shortage of workers, there is a shortage of available jobs. We have a depressed economy and unemployment is rampant. Especially among young males in the 18-25 demographic.
 
Muhammed said:
I've got an anti-immigration attitude. Could you elaborate on why you think any of my logic is faulty. Point out a specific logical fallacy I've made or something. Let's discuss.

And anti-immigration attitudes should come and go. For instance, during a booming economy when there is a shortage in the labor force, allowing immigration is a good policy. However, at this point in time the exact opposite is true. There is no shortage of workers, there is a shortage of available jobs. We have a depressed economy and unemployment is rampant. Especially among young males in the 18-25 demographic.
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If it is more of a calculating attitude, I have more respect for that. If it is literally ascribing character or morality onto the immigrants themselves, it is really stupid. It never turns out to be accurate, it always looks bad when you want the image of being open-armed, and so forth.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
I think we should change our official language to Spanish, teach Spanish in schools, force all kids to read Don Quixote in Spanish before graduating high school and grant citizenship to any citizen of Mexico, Cuba or Canada just for applying.

Let's face it. The United States culture sucks. Give me, give me, give me and give me more. I deserve it for three reasons. Number 1...... Well.... just give it to me. It's mine.

A huge influx of Mexican immigrants could offer a positive influence on our culture. I think immigration standards could remain the same for other countries. I just think it should be as simple as filing out an one page form for Mexican, Cuban and Canadians to move into our country.
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Thanks, but I can't come up with reason one to move from Canada to the US.
Not even climate- it's pretty darned good where I live, though there's a rumour it might snow tonight.
 
Muhammed said:
Please explain the reasoning for your answer
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.
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Anyone who is in touch with reality and the daily news knows that people are coming to the USA with or without permission.

I doubt that telling them to stop coming will have any measurable effect.

The only way that the USA will ever slow down the flow of these people into the USA is by putting better security in place at the borders.

I predict that will not happen anytime soon because of the monetary and political costs involved
 
jamesrage said:
I am all for legal immigration.But it must be restricted.

1. Only those who want to be Americans should be allowed to have green cards and eventually be citizens. That means no dual or multi citizenship,they must speak English or be in the process of learning English and be fluent by they time they get their citizenship.They do not have have to speak like a grammar fag/nazi, English, text book or English teacher.

2.The number of people allowed in should be seriously controlled so that they are not used to artificially keep wages low and so that the local population can easily absorb them.



5.All immigrants must be able to financially support themselves and their children without any tax payer funded assistance.
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This and some other things in your comment are already covered by current U.S. law.

You need to do a little research.
 
Starbuck said:
"Give me your tired, your poor, 
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, 
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. 
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: 
I lift my lamp beside the golden door. "
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The Statue of Liberty has never dictated American immigration policy. You were under the impression that it did?
 
Starbuck said:
"Give me your tired, your poor, 
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, 
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. 
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: 
I lift my lamp beside the golden door. "
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A poem doesn't dictate immigration policy and that poem was written before things like welfare,foodstamps, and the immigration and nationality act of 1965 that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse or minor children were invented.
 
jamesrage said:
A poem doesn't dictate immigration policy and that poem was written before things like welfare,foodstamps, and the immigration and nationality act of 1965 that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse or minor children were invented.
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Obviously the poem doesn't dictate policy and some imported copper statue doesn't hold any legal weight.

These are the symptoms of liberty, not the causes.

And as for things like food-stamps and the nationality act of 1965, those are but minor details in the grand scheme of this country being a beacon of hope and freedom for people all around the world. This is truly a place where ANYONE can come and make something of themselves.

In my opinion that is the single most important attribute of the United States.
 
Cephus said:
The Statue of Liberty has never dictated American immigration policy. You were under the impression that it did?
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Again, symptom of liberty, not the cause.
 
Muhammed said:
How so?
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Our rich heritage of immigration and of being a melting pot, makes us stronger.

This same heritage has also made us freer and more open to all of the people in the world.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
A huge influx of Mexican immigrants could offer a positive influence on our culture. I think immigration standards could remain the same for other countries. I just think it should be as simple as filing out an one page form for Mexican, Cuban and Canadians to move into our country.
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Honestly, it's one small continent.

An extremely simple border system seems to work well within Europe. Why should it not apply here, especially where so much of our border(s) are extremely harsh, rural and difficult/ expensive to patrol. The billions spent on border protection would me much better saved or spent on local communities.
 
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