• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Learn english first

Mach said:
It's the very definition of real life management. juggling people problems. Look, I wish it were not the case, but once you manage a lot of people, especially if you aren't the one solely in charge of hiring, that's your job, like it or not.

Furthermore, everyone is a problem person to someone else, or under certain conditions.

Again, pros/cons. Struggle with English, but make it up in productivity...why is that so hard to understand?


I don't mean to say only people that trigger that get fired, only that it's the most common non-productivity related cause for me to fire someone. I can see how that could be interpreted the other way.

I'm simply pointing out that struggling with English as a second language is not in and of itself, under average circumstances, a reasonable cause for firing someone. You can, but I would think most people have a fair number of dings on their work ability, and it's expected that they make up for those in other areas, and are net-productive for the company.

I see people all the time with the white-American attitude that if someone doesn't speak English they are lazy assholes. I tend to take "can't speak good English" with a grain of salt. And what industry?...in technology, if you can't handle bad Asian accents you're in the wrong business ;)

There are times when communication is so bad they cannot do their job despite efforts to communicate and work-around. In those cases, you fire them because they cannot perform their job adequately. The speaking bad English isn't why you fire them specifically, if that makes sense. Of course if it's your business, do what you will!
Click to expand...

The OP stated that the employee that can't understand spanish is not doing the job he needs that person to do.

The fact that the person does not understand English is the problem.

I think the trick is to not hire problem people in the first place. I do not think if the person speaks another language is any problem at all if it doesn't affect their job performance.
 
Mason66 said:
I live in Mexico. I can't tell you how many times I have Heard from people that it is just too hard to learn English. That is the idea people have here so they don't even try.

On the other side I got a call from my local post office to help with an English speaking customer. He was an army officer, which he told me many times, and he was waiting for a package that was supposedly sent 1 day service from Ventura California. First off there is no such thing as 1 day service to Mexico through the US Post Office. As he was ranting he told me over and over and was very upset about the fact that the people at the Mexican Postal Service did not speak English and he did not speak any Spanish at all. I don't know why he would come to a Spanish speaking country and expect his language to be accomodated.

When I got here I had to learn Spanish because not enough people speak English. That is just the way it is, but this guy was very upset that nobody at the post office spoke English.
Click to expand...
I have heard people from other countries say that English is one of the harder languages to learn. Primarily because our grammar rules are inconsistent compared to most other languages.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
No, I don't know that, nor have I ever scolded anyone who makes an attempt but is bad at it. It's one thing to be in America for 2 years and have bad English, it's another one entirely to be here 10 years and not speak a word.

Many people don't try, plain and simple. Mastering a language is VERY hard, but learning the basic syntax with a basic vocabulary is quite easy and can be done very quickly.
Click to expand...
It's the people that don't even try that I have no patience.
 
My complaint wasnt that she wasnt an english professor. Its that she cant understand the most basic sentences.

And yes i made misrakes spelling the names of foreign countries.

And yes i failed to properly capitalize things. Im on my phone and its easier to just type without capitalizing and punctuating everything. Quite frankly, i dont give a ****.

I can still communicate effectively.
 
The Mark said:
I agree that the thread title was a bit over-the-top.

And, I agree that the thread starter might try for a bit more understanding.

But I don't recall him actually saying that the woman needed to learn english, just gain a slightly better grasp - his thread title doesn't really match the OP, in that regard.
Click to expand...

Yes the title was over the top.

My grasp is just fine. So what if mispelled two words?
 
specklebang said:
I hope that by now you read my subsequent posts and that you realize I backed off my original position because I'm here to learn and be corrected as much or more than to drop off opinions and run for cover.

But when I wrote the original post, the one you are reacting to, my dismay was that I felt the children were being diminished in opportunity because the parents were failing to prepare them to become effective in their primary language of the land and thus condemning them to a lower set of opportunities. I've noticed that Asians tend to speak English to their children and Asians seem to be the most successful group of New Americans. From this, I extrapolated an opinion that was apparently incorrect and I have no problem admitting that I am wrong.

Sorry for this one last push at anecdotal evidence but my son was born in Korea to my (then) Korean wife. Because I was an absent Father, working, working, working to get my export business going, I rarely spoke to my child (I am ashamed of this and have apologized to him and supported him fully through his adult career because I screwed up and I know it). Well, when we returned to America when he was 5, we had to spend thousands of dollars sending him to speech therapy because his early use of Korean had shaped his mouth and had made certain words/sounds hard for him to pronounce. So, I was under the impression that it was harmful to maintain another language as a child. Apparently, my personal experience was somewhat unique and most children become readily bi-lingual without these speech problems. Good. I'd rather be wrong than right about this.
Click to expand...

They can become bilingual. The Russian families that I've observed, the kids easily switch between Russian and English. If they are exposed to both on a regular basis, they will keep it. My kids were born in Russia and came here (ages 7 & 6) not knowing any English. Now they don't really speak Russian anymore, even to each other, because my ex wife and I are native English speakers (learned a little Russian, but I'm obviously way more comfortable in English). I don't know that my Grandmother could still really speak Polish at the end of her life. My Grandfather wasn't Polish and they were married for over 65 years. Especially after her father died, there wasn't much use for Polish the last 40 years of her life.
 
If it's more entry-level work that these immigrants are hired for, and they are often from the same background, hire a bilingual manager and the company would likely do better overall.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
This is completely incorrect. There are no states in the US where you "need to learn two languages". I grew up in Texas, one of the states with the most Spanish speakers, and I at no point in my entire life have ever needed Spanish. It is not the language of the US, nor is it a requirement. Some people try to get cute and say "Well, officially the US has no language". And to that I say "Bull****."

Our constitution and laws are written in English, our police officers all speak English, we are an English speaking country. I'm an immigrant myself, but I learned my host nation's language and don't act like a lazy immigrant expecting them to learn mine.

It's lazy, disrespectful, and frankly a little dangerous when immigrants come en masse and refuse to even make an attempt to learn English.
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware, there is only one State which is officially Bilingual, that is New Mexico.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Many people don't try, plain and simple. Mastering a language is VERY hard, but learning the basic syntax with a basic vocabulary is quite easy and can be done very quickly.
Click to expand...

And it is even worse if these people are ghettoized.

I first met my wife just over 2 years after she moved to the US. Her accent was pretty bad, but she mad an honest effort, and you could tell as months then years went by that she is now very fluent in English.

Yet I have met people who have been here for decades (her parents among them) who never bothered to learn English at all. This is easier in a place like LA, where you have Spanish newspapers, radio, and television. But even when my mother-in-law lived with us in North Carolina and there was none of that at all, she still refused to learn English.

My wife already had her High School diploma when she moved to the US, but purposefully attended US High School because she knew it would improve her English. And even then she could not understand why people who were born and/or raised here did not bother to even try.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

And how do you propose to determine a person knows English or not? And what are the criteria of knowledge? Shakespeare by heart or the "street English" by teens, consisting of 150 words and 150 curses?
 
Update: two new somali workers started today on my team. Their english is very decent. Looks like i got some translators
 
radcen said:
I have heard people from other countries say that English is one of the harder languages to learn. Primarily because our grammar rules are inconsistent compared to most other languages.
Click to expand...
Our grammar rules are more vague guidelines...:2razz:

Seriously though, the English language IS one of the most convoluted on the planet - when it comes to following rules, we don't.

This is possibly in part because we gleefully take words from any language if they strike our fancy, and for that matter, make up new words out of thin air.


Edit: Hell, English is my native language, and I probably only know 75% at most of the words/rules.
 
The worst is when they put those people public facing. Whenever I encounter that I halt the business conversation, ask for management and explain why I'll never do business with the company again.
 
It should depend on the nature of the job, based on whether communicating in English is essential or not.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I know I'm in late . . . but that's what happens when I do stuff other than DP.

Yes - I feel that management is just inviting trouble when they hire people who *CANNOT communicate clearly* - and that even includes some 'Native English' speaking individuals who are just poor communicators.

How can work get done - and get done right - if people cannot so much as talk to each other? It's asinine to expect you to hobble together our own pidgin language.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
So.... i have a question. Should employers have the right to refuse employment because someone cant speak english?

Disclaimer: this is not about any specific "race" or language. Just about legal immigrants who cant speak english.

So, at work today i got really frustrated trying to communicate with someone who didnt speak very much english. Only a tiny bit. Not nearly enough to hold a conversation.
Im a leader in the workplace, so from time to time i have to ask someone to do something or for information. Its really hard to communicate with a person who cant speak english. I asked this person to not throw out the damaged products of the particular job we were doing because i have to keep count and record of them. This person didnt have a clue what i was asking and continued to throw out the damaged products.

Long story short, it made my job a lot harder and a thought hit my head; why are people who cant speak english even hired in the first place? How did this person make it through the process and interview with such little grasp on the language?

I think that employers should be allowed to deny employment to those who cant speak english. Im not saying they shouldnt be allowed to hire them, but i think they deserve a choice in this matter. What do you think?
Click to expand...

they can deny them here and probably can there too, but because of the employees language gap they probably get them on the cheap
 
The Mark said:
Our grammar rules are more vague guidelines...:2razz:

Seriously though, the English language IS one of the most convoluted on the planet - when it comes to following rules, we don't.

This is possibly in part because we gleefully take words from any language if they strike our fancy, and for that matter, make up new words out of thin air.


Edit: Hell, English is my native language, and I probably only know 75% at most of the words/rules.
Click to expand...

Well said. It wasn't until I started learning another language that I realized just how poorly our language is structured. Not only are the rules arcane and often fungible, but it seems there's exceptions for every rule. It's as if our language was designed to be just as impossible to navigate as our federal government.

The only other language I know right now (and then not well enough to be truly conversational) is Tagalog. It's got its own quirks, but its rules are so easy. If one pronounces a word, even a poor Tagalog speaker like myself almost immediately knows how to spell it just from how it's pronounced. There are no equivalents to 'he', 'she', 'his', or 'hers' - it's all gender-neutral unless one is referring specifically to a person or a group of same-gender persons. The structure of the sentences reminds one of how Yoda sometimes spoke: the word order of "Malakas ka na" is directly translated to "Powerful you have become".

It's really interesting, learning a different language, learning to think in different ways, seeing what's similar, what's radically different. I think second languages should be required of all our K-12 students, the earlier the better.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Yes - I feel that management is just inviting trouble when they hire people who *CANNOT communicate clearly* - and that even includes some 'Native English' speaking individuals who are just poor communicators.
Click to expand...

We ran into that exact same problem when I was at Hughes Aerospace in the early 1990's. We were hiring techs by the score for a major computer upgrade project, all temps sent from agencies based upon their claimed skills. And our minimum contract for these techs was at least 2 weeks unless they were shown to not have the skills as advertised.

One guy who we got was from central LA. And while his technical skills were excellent, he could not talk "normal English", but Eubonics. Even our supervisor (who was Black) tried to tell him that he had to speak more standard English or we could not put him in the field, but he resisted every attempt, saying that it was "racism". Needless to say we kept him in the warehouse for the 2 weeks required, then ended his contract.

When you work in a professional Corporate environment, "I be doin' this" is not acceptable. Especially for somebody born and raised in the US.
 
Every immigrant should be required to take and pass an English language course...
 
Oozlefinch said:
When you work in a professional Corporate environment, "I be doin' this" is not acceptable. Especially for somebody born and raised in the US.
Click to expand...

I hear dat, homey G.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I hear dat, homey G.
Click to expand...

Many of us have our own little dialects, from where we are from, to what we have done.

In the Marines, I earned the nickname of "Corporal Mother-F" (I think you can fill in the rest). This is because I was one of the foulest speaking individuals in my platoon, swearing constantly.

However, I did not speak that way all the time, and it shocked my wife the first time she walked up behind me at base and heard how I talked there. But I always knew what was appropriate where, and when. I can also speak in other "dialects", from LA Street and even Alabama-Southern.

But I do not use any of these at work, instead keeping to proper English, because that is what is expected of me (although if I am on the phone with our techs from Alabama for long enough, I will find myself slipping back into a drawl without even realizing it).
 
Phil_Osophy said:
Update: two new somali workers started today on my team. Their english is very decent. Looks like i got some translators
Click to expand...

That's the spirit.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Every immigrant should be required to take and pass an English language course...
Click to expand...

I had to take and pass a German language test in order to stay in Germany, and I'm married to a German. It's just common sense.

Hard Truth said:
It should depend on the nature of the job, based on whether communicating in English is essential or not.
Click to expand...

I guess you'd have a point if that worker never has to communicate with a colleague or superior. Maybe someone who sits in an isolated box and never talks to anybody. Any situation other than that, they need to be able to communicate with their coworkers.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I had to take and pass a German language test in order to stay in Germany, and I'm married to a German. It's just common sense.
Click to expand...

America is one of the few (if there are even any others) countries that bends over back wards to appease foreigners. English, luckily, is a pretty universal language but when I have been in France, Italy, Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Mexico, etc. I try to speak the language when possible, or have an interpreter. If I moved there I would certainly learn the local language.
 
Bodhisattva said:
America is one of the few (if there are even any others) countries that bends over back wards to appease foreigners. English, luckily, is a pretty universal language but when I have been in France, Italy, Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Mexico, etc. I try to speak the language when possible, or have an interpreter. If I moved there I would certainly learn the local language.
Click to expand...

That's because you're not a lazy asshole.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom