Is the U.S.A. de facto an empire?

Canell said:

The Holy Roman Empire lasted 844 years. I don't think the Emperor was in total control all the time. In fact:

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The HRE was neither holy or roman either. So it's a triple lie!

Just kiding.

It was holy because the emperor was crowned by the Pope.
It was Roman because the Emperor called himself Kaiser which is a germanization of the word Caesar.
And it was an Empire because the Emperor, while being absolute monarch of a single state, had the power to legislate and command many nations outside of his own in many respects, that is, the member nations of the HRE.


The Romans had client states too... Egypt was subservient to Rome for a long time even though no roman governor was present all the time... but it was under Rome. Judeea was allowed to have jewish elites like the pharisees but nobody denied that Rome wasn't ruler there. So yeah... examples can continue.

Not a traditional technical empire but it is an empire. We control many overseas lands such as Jamaica and American Somoa not to mention many other small islands.

shrubnose said:

First, I have a question: What countries does the USA totally control besides the USA?

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Classification of current U.S. territories

Incorporated unorganized territories
Palmyra Atoll is privately owned by the Nature Conservancy and administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior. It is an archipelago of about 50 small islands about 1.56 square miles (4 km²) in area that lies about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) south of Honolulu. The atoll was acquired by the United States in the 1898 annexation of the Republic of Hawaii. When the Territory of Hawaii was incorporated on April 30, 1900, Palmyra Atoll was incorporated as part of that territory. However, when Hawaii became a state in 1959, Palmyra Atoll was explicitly separated from the state, remaining an incorporated territory but receiving no new organized government.

Unincorporated organized territories
Guam
Northern Mariana Islands (commonwealth)
Puerto Rico (commonwealth)
United States Virgin Islands

Unincorporated unorganized territories
American Samoa, technically unorganized, but self-governing under a constitution last revised in 1967
Baker Island, uninhabited
Howland Island, uninhabited
Jarvis Island, uninhabited
Johnston Atoll, uninhabited
Kingman Reef, uninhabited
Petrel Islands, uninhabited
Serranilla Bank, uninhabited
Midway Islands, no indigenous inhabitants, currently included in the Midway Atoll National Wildlife Refuge
Navassa Island, uninhabited (claimed by Haiti)
Wake Atoll consisting of Peale, Wake and Wilkes Islands[4], no indigenous inhabitants, only contractor personnel (claimed by the Marshall Islands)

Classification of former U.S. territories & administered areas

Former unincorporated territories of the United States
Line Islands (?–1979): Disputed claim with United Kingdom, all U.S. claims ceded to Kiribati upon its independence.
Panama Canal Zone (1903–1999): sovereignty returned to Panama under the Torrijos-Carter Treaties; the U.S. retains a military interest
Corn Islands (1914-1971): leased for 99 years under the Bryan-Chamorro Treaty but were returned after the abrogation of the treaty in 1970.
Roncador Bank (1856-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Quita Sueño Bank (1869-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Serrana Bank (?-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Philippine Islands (1902–1935); Commonwealth of the Philippines (1935–1946): Full independence in 1946.
Phoenix Islands (?–1979): Disputed claim with United Kingdom, all U.S. claims ceded to Kiribati upon its independence.

Former unincorporated territories of the United States under military government
Puerto Rico (April 11, 1899-May 1, 1900): civil government operations began
Philippines (April 11, 1899-July 4, 1901): civil government operations began
Cuba (April 11, 1899-May 20, 1902): sovereignty granted as Republic of Cuba
Guam (April 11, 1899-July 1, 1950): civil government operations began

Areas formerly administered by the United States
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands (1947–1986): included the Compact of Free Association nations (Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Palau) and the Northern Mariana Islands
Ryukyu Islands (1952–1972): returned to Japanese control, included some other minor islands under the Agreement Between the United States of America and Japan Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands.[5]

Other zones
Austria and Vienna (1945–1955)
Berlin (1945–1990)
Germany (1945–1949)
Guantánamo Bay (1903-) Nominal Cuban sovereignty, de facto sole US control.
Japan (1945–1952)
Rhineland (1918–1921?)
South Korea (1945–1948)
Iraq (March 20, 2003–June 28, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo..._United_States

We have an economic and military imperialist country.

Van Basten said:

No. We don't have colonies across the globe and haven't made sport of conquering far away land rampantly like the Romans.

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em•pire (ěm'pīr') Pronunciation Key
1.
a. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority. (THE USA)
b. The territory included in such a unit.
2. An extensive enterprise under a unified authority: a publishing empire.
3. Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control: "There is a growing sense that the course of empire is shifting toward the . . . Asians" (James Traub).

em•pire
–noun
1. a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

Empire | Define Empire at Dictionary.com


Classification of current U.S. territories

Incorporated unorganized territories
Palmyra Atoll is privately owned by the Nature Conservancy and administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior. It is an archipelago of about 50 small islands about 1.56 square miles (4 km²) in area that lies about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) south of Honolulu. The atoll was acquired by the United States in the 1898 annexation of the Republic of Hawaii. When the Territory of Hawaii was incorporated on April 30, 1900, Palmyra Atoll was incorporated as part of that territory. However, when Hawaii became a state in 1959, Palmyra Atoll was explicitly separated from the state, remaining an incorporated territory but receiving no new organized government.

Unincorporated organized territories
Guam
Northern Mariana Islands (commonwealth)
Puerto Rico (commonwealth)
United States Virgin Islands

Unincorporated unorganized territories
American Samoa, technically unorganized, but self-governing under a constitution last revised in 1967
Baker Island, uninhabited
Howland Island, uninhabited
Jarvis Island, uninhabited
Johnston Atoll, uninhabited
Kingman Reef, uninhabited
Petrel Islands, uninhabited
Serranilla Bank, uninhabited
Midway Islands, no indigenous inhabitants, currently included in the Midway Atoll National Wildlife Refuge
Navassa Island, uninhabited (claimed by Haiti)
Wake Atoll consisting of Peale, Wake and Wilkes Islands[4], no indigenous inhabitants, only contractor personnel (claimed by the Marshall Islands)

Classification of former U.S. territories & administered areas

Former unincorporated territories of the United States
Line Islands (?–1979): Disputed claim with United Kingdom, all U.S. claims ceded to Kiribati upon its independence.
Panama Canal Zone (1903–1999): sovereignty returned to Panama under the Torrijos-Carter Treaties; the U.S. retains a military interest
Corn Islands (1914-1971): leased for 99 years under the Bryan-Chamorro Treaty but were returned after the abrogation of the treaty in 1970.
Roncador Bank (1856-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Quita Sueño Bank (1869-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Serrana Bank (?-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Philippine Islands (1902–1935); Commonwealth of the Philippines (1935–1946): Full independence in 1946.
Phoenix Islands (?–1979): Disputed claim with United Kingdom, all U.S. claims ceded to Kiribati upon its independence.

Former unincorporated territories of the United States under military government
Puerto Rico (April 11, 1899-May 1, 1900): civil government operations began
Philippines (April 11, 1899-July 4, 1901): civil government operations began
Cuba (April 11, 1899-May 20, 1902): sovereignty granted as Republic of Cuba
Guam (April 11, 1899-July 1, 1950): civil government operations began

Areas formerly administered by the United States
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands (1947–1986): included the Compact of Free Association nations (Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Palau) and the Northern Mariana Islands
Ryukyu Islands (1952–1972): returned to Japanese control, included some other minor islands under the Agreement Between the United States of America and Japan Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands.[5]

Other zones
Austria and Vienna (1945–1955)
Berlin (1945–1990)
Germany (1945–1949)
Guantánamo Bay (1903-) Nominal Cuban sovereignty, de facto sole US control.
Japan (1945–1952)
Rhineland (1918–1921?)
South Korea (1945–1948)
Iraq (March 20, 2003–June 28, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo..._United_States

We have an economic and military imperialist country.

Bodhisattva said:

Classification of current U.S. territories

Incorporated unorganized territories
Palmyra Atoll is privately owned by the Nature Conservancy and administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior. It is an archipelago of about 50 small islands about 1.56 square miles (4 km²) in area that lies about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) south of Honolulu. The atoll was acquired by the United States in the 1898 annexation of the Republic of Hawaii. When the Territory of Hawaii was incorporated on April 30, 1900, Palmyra Atoll was incorporated as part of that territory. However, when Hawaii became a state in 1959, Palmyra Atoll was explicitly separated from the state, remaining an incorporated territory but receiving no new organized government.

Unincorporated organized territories
Guam
Northern Mariana Islands (commonwealth)
Puerto Rico (commonwealth)
United States Virgin Islands

Unincorporated unorganized territories
American Samoa, technically unorganized, but self-governing under a constitution last revised in 1967
Baker Island, uninhabited
Howland Island, uninhabited
Jarvis Island, uninhabited
Johnston Atoll, uninhabited
Kingman Reef, uninhabited
Petrel Islands, uninhabited
Serranilla Bank, uninhabited
Midway Islands, no indigenous inhabitants, currently included in the Midway Atoll National Wildlife Refuge
Navassa Island, uninhabited (claimed by Haiti)
Wake Atoll consisting of Peale, Wake and Wilkes Islands[4], no indigenous inhabitants, only contractor personnel (claimed by the Marshall Islands)

Classification of former U.S. territories & administered areas

Former unincorporated territories of the United States
Line Islands (?–1979): Disputed claim with United Kingdom, all U.S. claims ceded to Kiribati upon its independence.
Panama Canal Zone (1903–1999): sovereignty returned to Panama under the Torrijos-Carter Treaties; the U.S. retains a military interest
Corn Islands (1914-1971): leased for 99 years under the Bryan-Chamorro Treaty but were returned after the abrogation of the treaty in 1970.
Roncador Bank (1856-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Quita Sueño Bank (1869-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Serrana Bank (?-1981): claimed under Guano Islands Act was ceded to Colombia in September 7, 1981 by treaty.
Philippine Islands (1902–1935); Commonwealth of the Philippines (1935–1946): Full independence in 1946.
Phoenix Islands (?–1979): Disputed claim with United Kingdom, all U.S. claims ceded to Kiribati upon its independence.

Former unincorporated territories of the United States under military government
Puerto Rico (April 11, 1899-May 1, 1900): civil government operations began
Philippines (April 11, 1899-July 4, 1901): civil government operations began
Cuba (April 11, 1899-May 20, 1902): sovereignty granted as Republic of Cuba
Guam (April 11, 1899-July 1, 1950): civil government operations began

Areas formerly administered by the United States
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands (1947–1986): included the Compact of Free Association nations (Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Palau) and the Northern Mariana Islands
Ryukyu Islands (1952–1972): returned to Japanese control, included some other minor islands under the Agreement Between the United States of America and Japan Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands.[5]

Other zones
Austria and Vienna (1945–1955)
Berlin (1945–1990)
Germany (1945–1949)
Guantánamo Bay (1903-) Nominal Cuban sovereignty, de facto sole US control.
Japan (1945–1952)
Rhineland (1918–1921?)
South Korea (1945–1948)
Iraq (March 20, 2003–June 28, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo..._United_States

We have an economic and military imperialist country.

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That's just, like ... your opinion man.

shrubnose said:

That's just, like ... your opinion man.

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I think that by definition the USA does fall into the category of an Empire. It is not as dominant over other people's as were the Romans or Brits... but it is an Empire none the less.

Bodhisattva said:

I think that by definition the USA does fall into the category of an Empire.

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It is not as dominant over other people's as were the Romans or Brits... but it is an Empire none the less.

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I don't know and I really don't care why you have a grudge against the USA, But I believe that eventually you will discover that pursuing that grudge will not help you to live a better life.

Canell said:

So, is it? :2razz:

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By no means. There'll be no new empires in the shadow of the bomb, unless by global assent.

Canell said:

So, is it? :2razz:

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Yes. But different than any other in history. We are an Empire of Democracy. We are chief among the democratic powers and armored not by client states but by democratic hegemony and peace.

shrubnose said:

I don't know and I really don't care why you have a grudge against the USA, But I believe that eventually you will discover that pursuing that grudge will not help you to live a better life.

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I literally have no idea why you would make an assumption that I have a grudge against America or how you could correlate thinking the USA is an Empire is something negative. My life is pretty chill though and I would say it is just about as good as life can get minus the crazy ex-wife.

Gardener said:

I might be tempted to use the term hegemony, but not empire.

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ya hegemony is alot closer. policing the world spreading democracy, sounds about right

Canell said:

So, is it? :2razz:

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Perhaps an economic empire, but that is just good business.

Gathomas88 said:

It was, technically speaking, a Constitutional Monarchy. Additionally, I was under the impression that the English Monarchy only gained the "imperial" moniker after taking over India, anyway.

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Ah, good, you know your history!

It was (and is) indeed a constitutional monarchy, but it was (and is) also a democracy. That's not to say it's a democratic republic, like France or the US, but the fact of monarchy in the United Kingdom is that it now largely serves the role of figurehead and rallying point -- the United Kingdom is fully democratic, and lots of people (myself included) think it's the oldest democracy in the world. Obviously, this point is debated between Britain, France, Switzerland and the US, who all claim to be the oldest, owing to their different definitions of democracy -- but there is at least a certain for the claim that the UK was a democracy during the time of empire.

As for that term -- empire -- you're right in thinking that the British Monarchy only started calling itself an Imperial bloodline after India in 1857, styling themselves Emperor or Empress of India, etc. etc., but the political institution of empire has a much longer history in Britain.

Again depending on definition, you could reliably argue for the existence of the British Empire since the Acts of Union in 1707 brought de facto sovereignty of the English Parliament over the Scottish Parliament.

Overseas empire far precedes this date, however, as the English (and then British) were establishing colonies in the Americas since the Chesapeake Bay Colony, Jamestown, Williamsburg, etc. (You know Pocahontas and all, eh?)

So, to wind up an increasingly long and pedantic post, Britain was an empire long before the monarch started calling him/herself Emperor or Empress, and India was only the most lucrative of British Imperial conquests, certainly not the first!

Canell said:

The Holy Roman Empire lasted 844 years. I don't think the Emperor was in total control all the time. In fact:

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Voltaire pointed out that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. He was right on all counts.

Rainman05 said:

No, it's not an empire. Military occupation in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq don't make a nation an empire especially since the political government hasn't been usurped from the people, but rather, given back to the people.

If the USA would decide to conquer Mexico, then it would be an empire. Or annex Iraq or Afghanistan...
Democratic empires can exist Gathomas. The Roman Republic was an empire... but it was also a democracy (until you know, it stopped being).

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lol do you actually believe what you say? If you drop the dollar or work too hard on your own currency america invades you, friends excluded.

Meh. We are a Soft Power Empire.

With troops and bases all over the world, I don't see how you could call it anything but an empire.

EDIT: Here's a link to the image since the text is so small.
http://www.bilder.beofnf.de/amerika/us military bases.jpg

Canell said:

So, is it? :2razz:

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No, the United States as it operates currently is a entity that falls under a new, as of yet, unnamed category.

Sherman123 said:

Yes. But different than any other in history. We are an Empire of Democracy. We are chief among the democratic powers and armored not by client states but by democratic hegemony and peace.

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Thats not really completely accurate. Puerto Rico being chief among the obstacles to that definition as the U.S has in its history annexed many territories and claimed them in an imperialist manner. Such as the aquisition of Florida during the Spanish war, Hawaii, etc.... Whether it can be reclassified as it has not shown those tendencies toward annexation recently is a matter for debate, but the many wars and conflicts it has engaged in over the last 50 years within sovereign nations could well be an argument for it still being an imperialist power.

The U.S is also not technically a Democracy, though it is Democratic.... though this is an argument for debate....

Lastly, the U.S has a major issue with the term Empire and Imperialism, obviously stemming from its own birth. The U.S at a governmental level would be keen to never be seen with such a label and as such, regardless of the evidence would always resist such a labelling. If it walks like a duck my friend....

phattonez said:

With troops and bases all over the world, I don't see how you could call it anything but an empire.

EDIT: Here's a link to the image since the text is so small.
http://www.bilder.beofnf.de/amerika/us military bases.jpg

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The U.S. is not an empire in the traditional sense. While we may conquer foreign lands, we do not retain ownership for very long. We do, however, as you pointed out, export our influence and might across the globe. We similarly do that with our values and goods. Some of what we do is par the course of being a superpower, but some of what we do stems from our original days sailing the high seas expanding the reach and power of this nation often at the peril of foreigners and their resources.

Jango said:

The U.S. is not an empire in the traditional sense. While we may conquer foreign lands, we do not retain ownership for very long. We do, however, as you pointed out, export our influence and might across the globe. We similarly do that with our values and goods. Some of what we do is par the course of being a superpower, but some of what we do stems from our original days sailing the high seas expanding the reach and power of this nation often at the peril of foreigners and their resources.

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Whereby, in most peoples' mind the idea of malign intent has more to do with the way they are and think, than with what the Americans are really thinking.

Hdreamz said:

Thats not really completely accurate. Puerto Rico being chief among the obstacles to that definition as the U.S has in its history annexed many territories and claimed them in an imperialist manner. Such as the aquisition of Florida during the Spanish war, Hawaii, etc.... Whether it can be reclassified as it has not shown those tendencies toward annexation recently is a matter for debate, but the many wars and conflicts it has engaged in over the last 50 years within sovereign nations could well be an argument for it still being an imperialist power.

The U.S is also not technically a Democracy, though it is Democratic.... though this is an argument for debate....

Lastly, the U.S has a major issue with the term Empire and Imperialism, obviously stemming from its own birth. The U.S at a governmental level would be keen to never be seen with such a label and as such, regardless of the evidence would always resist such a labelling. If it walks like a duck my friend....

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A few things:

1. The fact that the US has historically behaved in a less than purely liberal fashion does not diminish the reality that we are a liberal hegemony. Our method of 'Imperial' rule is the exportation of democracy and the cementing of democratic peace. This was achieved by our exertions over the past century and include everything from our interventions in the Americas, the struggles of the World Wars, and the global campaigns of the Cold War. The fruits of these victories are evident in areas as far flung as Europe, East Asia, and South America.

Today our power rests upon our military, economic, and political clout, but our security and the friendliness of our relations is secured by the democratic world order we have created.

2. Whatever our past transgressions there is no evidence of such 'imperial' rule today. Puerto Rico is a vibrant democracy that has been free to choose its destiny and associations for decades, nor do we hold any colonial possessions.

3. We are a democratic state, let's not resort to the school house arguments of 'we're not a democracy, we're a Republic!'. We have democratic government and popular self-rule and can be popularly (and universally...) referred to as a democracy.

The way the government works is obsolete.

It needs to be daily citizen voting vs state vs the whole.

As in every damn single person can be alerted to what the daily vote is on and all 3 battle it out. We dont even really need a president. How about make the figure head the voice of "The Whole" for a week and have it be based on a weeks worth of merit.

Technology man...

Most people are against the war. Therefore if 51% of americans vote to end the war then its a no go if all 3 cant settle.

Jango said:

The U.S. is not an empire in the traditional sense. While we may conquer foreign lands, we do not retain ownership for very long. We do, however, as you pointed out, export our influence and might across the globe. We similarly do that with our values and goods. Some of what we do is par the course of being a superpower, but some of what we do stems from our original days sailing the high seas expanding the reach and power of this nation often at the peril of foreigners and their resources.

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Greece in many ways did the same thing. Was Greece (Macedon) not an empire at the time of Alexander the Great?

Yes, unfortunately.

We have a military presence in 150+ countries. We have over 50,000 troops in Germany, 30,000 troops in Japan, 28,000 in Korea, and many more elsewhere. If that's not an empire, I don't know what is.