Minimum drop out age

Helix said:

Fining the parents sounds like a good idea. That would get them involved.

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And the parents that are already very poor? Sadly this seems to be the case in the majority of drop-outs... there is no easy answer. BUT, I do feel that dropping the age is not the way to go.

Helix said:

Yours is a legitimate argument, and I might be a biased intellectual idealist. However, I mean seriously, just graduate high school. ****, some countries force everyone to be in the army.

I think we need to SERIOUSLY redesign the structure of secondary school, though. Nothing wrong with separate academic and vocational routes, as long as the kid gets to make the decision.

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Perhaps...

Highschool could have "levels" of graduation - at one level, you can go on to higher education easily...at a lower level, you need additional schooling before doing so, or remedial classes in college. Although that's kinda the same thing, I suppose.

Still though, I think every child should be required to learn a few basic things - like personal finances, history, math, reading, writing...all the standard stuff, except perhaps for that finances bit. Could tie that in with math, probably, since they're so interrelated.

I dunno...

Chiefgator said:

And the parents that are already very poor? Sadly this seems to be the case in the majority of drop-outs... there is no easy answer. BUT, I do feel that dropping the age is not the way to go.

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a poor parent can still require a child to attend school. i've sometimes wondered about financial rewards for the parents of children who excel / improve, also.

The Mark said:

Perhaps...

Highschool could have "levels" of graduation - at one level, you can go on to higher education easily...at a lower level, you need additional schooling before doing so, or remedial classes in college. Although that's kinda the same thing, I suppose.

Still though, I think every child should be required to learn a few basic things - like personal finances, history, math, reading, writing...all the standard stuff, except perhaps for that finances bit. Could tie that in with math, probably, since they're so interrelated.

I dunno...

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those are some good ideas.

i would look at moving to a block schedule; classes meet every other day for twice as long, and would be devoted mostly to completing homework after the lecture. the teacher could then devote his or her time to tutoring the students in class. this would counteract the lack of access to home tutoring that most kids experience.

Chiefgator said:

I agree to that to a point as well. I would like to see a more "life lesson" centered curricula.
Budgeting, loans and credit cards, nutrition, cooking… those things that were taught in the old “Home Ec” classes.

But, I also feel that an academic education is not always the way to go. A kid that has no chance or desire to ever go to college should be able to take a Vocational route instead of English Lit. In the long run, learning a trade is much more effective than learning about Beowulf or The Canterbury Tales

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I agree to an extent. What bothers me about this approach though is that to be a functional citizen - to be able to understand issues and realize when smoke is being blown up your posterior - you need to possess some level of critical thinking and reasoning skills. You don't get those in vocational school.

Helix said:

those are some good ideas.

i would look at moving to a block schedule; classes meet every other day for twice as long, and would be devoted mostly to completing homework after the lecture. the teacher could then devote his or her time to tutoring the students in class. this would counteract the lack of access to home tutoring that most kids experience.

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I like that. Nothings turns kids off faster than full blocks of nothing but boring lecture. Time should be allotted for assignment work, also.

Gaius46 said:

I agree to an extent. What bothers me about this approach though is that to be a functional citizen - to be able to understand issues and realize when smoke is being blown up your posterior - you need to possess some level of critical thinking and reasoning skills. You don't get those in vocational school.

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And to that I agree... The trend that I have seen has been a focus on critical thinking in many areas. I think that is a great way to go. Rote memorization is a horrible way to learn.

I was once the an evaluator for an Aircrew position in the Navy. I had a a reputation of being the hardest evaluator out there. I was not harder, I just requred you to think. For example, instead of asking "What frequency(s) does the PRC90 survival radio have?" To which everyone had memorized, I would ask "You have survived the crash and now want to talk to the search aircraft, what frequency do you dial up?" It required a little more in-depth (and much more meaningful) knowlege that spouting off the two frequencies when you had to know that One was for SAR coordination and one was, most likely, going to be clobbered by the emergency beacon.

Sadly, many Crewmen, that flew every day, could tell you the trivia of how much a radio weighed, but not how to use it. Changing that, was one of my main goals in that position. I am happy to say that when my son took his check flight last summer, the questions there were asked were almost all "critical thinking" types.

Chiefgator said:

And to that I agree... The trend that I have seen has been a focus on critical thinking in many areas. I think that is a great way to go. Rote memorization is a horrible way to learn.

I was once the an evaluator for an Aircrew position in the Navy. I had a a reputation of being the hardest evaluator out there. I was not harder, I just requred you to think. For example, instead of asking "What frequency(s) does the PRC90 survival radio have?" To which everyone had memorized, I would ask "You have survived the crash and now want to talk to the search aircraft, what frequency do you dial up?" It required a little more in-depth (and much more meaningful) knowlege that spouting off the two frequencies when you had to know that One was for SAR coordination and one was, most likely, going to be clobbered by the emergency beacon.

Sadly, many Crewmen, that flew every day, could tell you the trivia of how much a radio weighed, but not how to use it. Changing that, was one of my main goals in that position. I am happy to say that when my son took his check flight last summer, the questions there were asked were almost all "critical thinking" types.

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Whichever one the aircraft has.

:mrgreen:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :3oops:

radcen said:

I like that. Nothings turns kids off faster than full blocks of nothing but boring lecture. Time should be allotted for assignment work, also.

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And how many times, after a lecture/class, when doing homework, did one of us have questions they wanted to ask the teacher/professor...

Promising idea, that one.

Fisher said:

No, you asked for evidence I provided it. Bellyache all you want but the entire national education model is based on the TEXAS model that used fake numbers to impose itself on the nation. My claim is not "therefore false" because you want it to be. If you are going to erect a proper strawman, you should at least develop some skill at it. There are two relatives in two different districts in my extended family who used "released to home schooling" as a way to drop out when they could not officially drop out. You provide proof you have purchased some home schooling/GED plan and you never hear from the school systems again and never have to complete the program. Sorry, you lose.

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You provided old links to news media sites, thats not evidence. And i dont care what your flunky extended family does or says. Two people are not big numbers anyways even if I did believe you. The you cry wolf and assert that these parents never hear anything at all. lmao.

Parents Arrested For Not Teaching Their Home-schooled Children Say They're Innocent | WFSU

ANd the court papers https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://wfsu.org/radio/pdfs/SOBS-MFP13100212370.pdf

An analysis of Georgia laws and home schooling. http://www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/Georgia.pdf

And this shows what states are lacking on home schooling laws and those who are not. HSLDA | Home School Laws




green - States requiring no notice: No state requirement for parents to initiate any contact.
yellow - States with low regulation: State requires parental notification only.
orange - States with moderate regulation: State requires parents to send notification, test scores, and/or professional evaluation of student progress.
red -States with high regulation: State requires parents to send notification or achievement test scores and/or professional evaluation, plus other requirements (e.g. curriculum approval by the state, teacher qualification of parents, or home visits by state officials).

Notice there not every state is like Texas.

I do have two school age children. They both attend public schools. But if circumstances changed I would like to retain my right as a parent to teach my own children legally. Of course we should all be home schooling our kids, but we circumstances do not allows allow that. At the very least parents should still teach their children even if they are in the best school that money can buy. Its the parents responsibility, not someone like you that have relatives that dont care about their kids.

FreedomFromAll said:

You provided old links to news media sites, thats not evidence. And i dont care what your flunky extended family does or says. Two people are not big numbers anyways even if I did believe you. The you cry wolf and assert that these parents never hear anything at all. lmao.

Parents Arrested For Not Teaching Their Home-schooled Children Say They're Innocent | WFSU

ANd the court papers https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://wfsu.org/radio/pdfs/SOBS-MFP13100212370.pdf

An analysis of Georgia laws and home schooling. http://www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/Georgia.pdf

And this shows what states are lacking on home schooling laws and those who are not. HSLDA | Home School Laws

green - States requiring no notice: No state requirement for parents to initiate any contact.
yellow - States with low regulation: State requires parental notification only.
orange - States with moderate regulation: State requires parents to send notification, test scores, and/or professional evaluation of student progress.
red -States with high regulation: State requires parents to send notification or achievement test scores and/or professional evaluation, plus other requirements (e.g. curriculum approval by the state, teacher qualification of parents, or home visits by state officials).

Notice there not every state is like Texas.

I do have two school age children. They both attend public schools. But if circumstances changed I would like to retain my right as a parent to teach my own children legally. Of course we should all be home schooling our kids, but we circumstances do not allows allow that. At the very least parents should still teach their children even if they are in the best school that money can buy. Its the parents responsibility, not someone like you that have relatives that dont care about their kids.

Click to expand...

You can get your panties in as twisted of a wad about home schooling as you want, but it does not change the fact that homeschooling is used as a cover for drop outs in districts that do not want to lose their funding. My child that goes to school goes to private school because I am willing to pay for my children to have a leg up, but some people apparently do not care enough about their children so they send them to public school or home school them......see how fun that is.

FreedomFromAll said:

You provided old links to news media sites, thats not evidence. And i dont care what your flunky extended family does or says. Two people are not big numbers anyways even if I did believe you. The you cry wolf and assert that these parents never hear anything at all. lmao.

Parents Arrested For Not Teaching Their Home-schooled Children Say They're Innocent | WFSU

ANd the court papers https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://wfsu.org/radio/pdfs/SOBS-MFP13100212370.pdf

An analysis of Georgia laws and home schooling. http://www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/Georgia.pdf

And this shows what states are lacking on home schooling laws and those who are not. HSLDA | Home School Laws

green - States requiring no notice: No state requirement for parents to initiate any contact.
yellow - States with low regulation: State requires parental notification only.
orange - States with moderate regulation: State requires parents to send notification, test scores, and/or professional evaluation of student progress.
red -States with high regulation: State requires parents to send notification or achievement test scores and/or professional evaluation, plus other requirements (e.g. curriculum approval by the state, teacher qualification of parents, or home visits by state officials).

Notice there not every state is like Texas.

I do have two school age children. They both attend public schools. But if circumstances changed I would like to retain my right as a parent to teach my own children legally. Of course we should all be home schooling our kids, but we circumstances do not allows allow that. At the very least parents should still teach their children even if they are in the best school that money can buy. Its the parents responsibility, not someone like you that have relatives that dont care about their kids.

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I was homeschooled in PA, and I can confirm that every year my parents had to compile a folder displaying my training for the year, and haul me and the folder to a former teacher who basically would say "yes, new grade next year". Also, "do this next year".

Chiefgator said:

And to that I agree... The trend that I have seen has been a focus on critical thinking in many areas. I think that is a great way to go. Rote memorization is a horrible way to learn.

I was once the an evaluator for an Aircrew position in the Navy. I had a a reputation of being the hardest evaluator out there. I was not harder, I just requred you to think. For example, instead of asking "What frequency(s) does the PRC90 survival radio have?" To which everyone had memorized, I would ask "You have survived the crash and now want to talk to the search aircraft, what frequency do you dial up?" It required a little more in-depth (and much more meaningful) knowlege that spouting off the two frequencies when you had to know that One was for SAR coordination and one was, most likely, going to be clobbered by the emergency beacon.

Sadly, many Crewmen, that flew every day, could tell you the trivia of how much a radio weighed, but not how to use it. Changing that, was one of my main goals in that position. I am happy to say that when my son took his check flight last summer, the questions there were asked were almost all "critical thinking" types.

Click to expand...

Bravo. I did the same as a flight instructor. The FAA has a mania about trivia - for example I failed my first attempt at my flight instructor certificate simply because I couldn't tell the examiner where the DME antenna was on the aircraft we were using. Passed everything else - 6 hour oral, 2 hour flying and teaching demonstration.

I did the same with my students. It wasn't "What's an ILS?" but "Walk me through the general procedure for an instrument letdown starting from when you contact the approach controller" Anyone can memorize triva. Real understanding comes from knowing to apply what you memorized.

Fisher said:

You can get your panties in as twisted of a wad about home schooling as you want, but it does not change the fact that homeschooling is used as a cover for drop outs in districts that do not want to lose their funding. My child that goes to school goes to private school because I am willing to pay for my children to have a leg up, but some people apparently do not care enough about their children so they send them to public school or home school them......see how fun that is.

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I guess I have to point out the obvious: Being kicked out of public schools is not dropping out of public schools. And pulling a child from public schools by the parents is not dropping out of school.
DROPOUT - A student who, for any reason other than death, leaves school before graduation without transferring to another school/institution. Note the word school, now note the same word in home schooling.

And thats great that you have the freedom to send your kid to a private school.

Why isn't there a, "Who cares? Your child is clearly a functional window licker for trying to leave school at 16, and if your kid is dumb enough to leave school, maybe we should let nature take course", option?

specklebang said:

...and your opinion? Or is this OPINION© pice exactly your thougyts?



Too many years since I've been in school. I wanted to work. I wanted to save money. My parents didn't do "allowances". School bored the hell out of me.

So I dropped out, got a GED, traveled the world, opened businesses and always had the advantage of starting earlier than my classmates.

So, it depends on why you want to drop out and from what I can tell, "public education" is less than excellent since all of it is geared to the lowest denominator.

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To put it briefly, I got expelled in the 7th grade and had no further formal education thereafter (I'm 71). I eventually became a Radio Lineman/Rigger with a government department. At 49 I started my own business employing 20 or so men installing microwave links etc. It was so successful I retired quite comfortable financially at age 55. All my "educated" mates worked for a boss and retired on a shoe string pension. I'm so glad I didn't take the establishment's so called "education" (read brainwashing) system that turned out identical widgets by the millions. One of my favourite songs is "Little Boxes"

Fisher said:

You can get your panties in as twisted of a wad about home schooling as you want, but it does not change the fact that homeschooling is used as a cover for drop outs in districts that do not want to lose their funding. My child that goes to school goes to private school because I am willing to pay for my children to have a leg up, but some people apparently do not care enough about their children so they send them to public school or home school them......see how fun that is.

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Wow......... Just wow!

If our education system were closer to ideal, I would support mandatory high school diplomas for everyone. But because the system is so damaged right now, I don't blame young people for wanting to leave.

Besides, I did adult night school when I was 21 because I decided to pursue science in university and didn't have certain HS pre-reqs. The adult version of high school is much, much nicer. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with forcing children to sit at desks all day. Their education should be more experiential to help them build their core talents and personalities. I think adults understand the value of education way better than kids under 18, which is why university tends to be so much more pleasant.

Fisher said:

Y...but some people apparently do not care enough about their children so they send them to public school or home school them......see how fun that is.

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Quality of public school education is at least partially dependent on the quality of the parents. Homeschooling even moreso (entirely?)

Your statement is inaccurate.

Level of care parents have for their children is not related to schooling choice.

The Misanthrope said:

To put it briefly, I got expelled in the 7th grade and had no further formal education thereafter (I'm 71). I eventually became a Radio Lineman/Rigger with a government department. At 49 I started my own business employing 20 or so men installing microwave links etc. It was so successful I retired quite comfortable financially at age 55. All my "educated" mates worked for a boss and retired on a shoe string pension. I'm so glad I didn't take the establishment's so called "education" (read brainwashing) system that turned out identical widgets by the millions. One of my favourite songs is "Little Boxes"

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'A' students work for 'C' students.

If we were to mandate high school diplomas, and everybody had one, would that not lower the meaning and value of a high school diploma?

College degrees no longer carry the same weight they used to now that they're much more common than they used to be.

radcen said:

'A' students work for 'C' students.

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I actually had people with university degrees working for me. People with uni degrees drive taxis these days, while uneducated people who can make or fix things can charge the earth for their services, if you can get them to even answer your frantic calls for help! :stooges

Shades of Olde Europe after the Plague Years when once lowly labourers who had survived could name their own price to the stinking aristocrats who had oppressed them cruelly before The Plague! Oh how the mighty have fallen! :lamo

radcen said:

'A' students work for 'C' students.

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I take that as more of a negative reflection on our grading systems, rather than a positive reflection on bad grades.

Or possibly, a negative reflection on who we put in charge....hmm....

The Mark said:

radcen said:

'A' students work for 'C' students.

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I take that as more of a negative reflection on our grading systems, rather than a positive reflection on bad grades.

Or possibly, a negative reflection on who we put in charge....hmm....

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I think it's intended to reflect that 'C' students think out side the box, are less conformist, and willing to take chances... and hence with greater risk comes greater reward.

'A' students, on the other hand, are more nose-to-the-grindstone people less willing to take the chances. They just follow instructions.

radcen said:

If we were to mandate high school diplomas, and everybody had one, would that not lower the meaning and value of a high school diploma?

College degrees no longer carry the same weight they used to now that they're much more common than they used to be.

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From a competition for jobs perspective perhaps. From a "is this person somewhat literate and can they actually function in society" perspective no.

School should, at a minimum, be about turning out reasoning, functional citizens.