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Which one is the most dishonest active Politician?

Which one is the most dishonest active politician?

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
Peter King said:
Do I really need to say more about this kind of silly thing?

And PS. Adolf H. is as right wing as it gets.
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Cardinal said:
Not if you redefine fascism to be left wing.
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And you would only do that if you wanted to be accurate.

There is no denying that Fascism and its its step child, Nazism, came out of the left. Mussolini's father was a revolutionary socialist, blah blah blah... but then, one assumes that since you made that spike attempt, that you may have known about some of all of this, eh?
 
Peter King said:
No, I think I was pretty much accurate

iCasualties | Operation Iraqi Freedom | Iraq

iCasualties: Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom Casualties

And stand by my comments, under Bush a lot more soldiers died. And that goes for total number of soldiers that sadly lost their lives as well as number of soldiers per year.
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And I stand by mine, a much more accurate portrayal of the overall picture of what was/is going on. GW was pretty much successful in his military efforts, so was BJ, for the most part [ maybe a bit questionable on Haiti, certainly Somalia ]... not so much for the O... and again, just not that much difference in actual causalities, especially in light of accomplishment vs nothing much at all accomplished... and certainly not as much as you may want to try to make of it.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
And you would only do that if you wanted to be accurate.

There is no denying that Fascism and its its step child, Nazism, came out of the left. Mussolini's father was a revolutionary socialist, blah blah blah... but then, one assumes that since you made that spike attempt, that you may have known about some of all of this, eh?
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The principles and organization of Fascists. Also, loosely, any form of right-wing authoritarianism.
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Home : Oxford English Dictionary

an 'anti-ideological' and pragmatic ideology that proclaims itself antimaterialist, anti-individualist, antiliberal, antidemocratic, anti-Marxist, is populist and anticapitalist in tendency, expresses itself aesthetically more than theoretically by means of a new political style and by myths, rites, and symbols as a lay religion designed to acculturate, socialize, and integrate the faith of the masses with the goal of creating a 'new man';"
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Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (there's a whole slew of definitions there, actually, but anti-marxist and anti-left principles are predominant


an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
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source: my apple computer's on board dictionary (take that as you will)

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
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Fascism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


a political movement or system characterized mainly by a belief in the supremacy of the chosen national group over all others, and in which there is, typically, state control of all aspects of society, a supreme dictator, suppression of democratic bodies such as trade unions and emphasis on nationalism and militarism.
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www.chambersharrap.co.uk"

any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
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Definition of fascism | Collins English Dictionary

a very right-wing political system in which the government is very powerful and controls the society and the economy completely, not allowing any opposition. Fascism was practised in Italy and Germany in the 1930s and 40s.
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fascism - definition of fascism by Macmillan Dictionary

a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control, and being extremely proud of country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed
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Fascism noun - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
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fascism - definition of fascism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

All of these definitions included descriptions of right wing principles taken to an extreme. All other definitions just focused on the totalitarian aspect, but none at all on singularly left wing principles because it's understood that the extreme of left wing principles is communism.
 
Rocketman said:
You can only vote for one and it would be nice if it came with an explanation.
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I'm really tempted to vote for Nancy Pelosi, but I can't. To be a "liar" would require that you know or at least believe you are presenting a falsehood. Like Biden, I really think Pelosi may just be a bit insane.
 
Cardinal said:
All of these definitions included descriptions of right wing principles taken to an extreme
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No - you are placing a modern (and somewhat distorted) set of assumptions into your analysis. Neither racialism nor nationalism were right-wing phenomenon. In fact, as much as they entered policy in America, they were usually Progressive phenomenon. It wasn't conservatives who pushed Eugenics or trade protectionism at that time, recall.

All other definitions just focused on the totalitarian aspect, but none at all on singularly left wing principles because it's understood that the extreme of left wing principles is communism.
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Meh. Sort of. Ideology is not linear.
 
cpwill said:
No - you are placing a modern (and somewhat distorted) set of assumptions into your analysis. Neither racialism nor nationalism were right-wing phenomenon. In fact, as much as they entered policy in America, they were usually Progressive phenomenon. It wasn't conservatives who pushed Eugenics or trade protectionism at that time, recall.



Meh. Sort of. Ideology is not linear.
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If you want to reject every single dictionary, be my guest.

Well, there's still Conservapedia. I'm sure that source would be more than happy to tell you that Fascism is left wing.
 
Cardinal said:
If you want to reject every single dictionary, be my guest.
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:shrug: when you start to make an academic argument by citing a dictionary, typically you are in the 7th grade and writing your very first research paper.

Well, there's still Conservapedia. I'm sure that source would be more than happy to tell you that Fascism is left wing.
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:shrug: maybe they would, and it would be no evidence whatsoever. The fact remains that there is heavy ideological overlap between the European National Socialists and the American Progressives of that era - because both were outgrowths of the same broad intellectual movement. The movements borrowed from their predecessors and each other, as well as the central planning experiments going on in the Soviet Union. Was Hitler anti-communist? Sure he was. For the same reason that Stalin was anti-Menshevik.

"..what we were doing in this country were some of the things that were being done in Russia and even some of the things that were done under Hitler in Germany. But we were doing them in an orderly way." Harold Ickes, Interior Secretary under FDR, citing the President.
 
Peter King said:
Please stop the falsehoods, please. True, under Obama more troops have died in Afghanistan than under Bush (1626 in almost 5 years under Obama and 564 in the 7 years under Bush) but you seem to ignore that under Bush 4,222 US troops died in Iraq and under Obama 264 troops died in Iraq.

Add them and you will see that under Bush 4,222 and 564 US brave men and women died in Iraq and Afghanistan and under Obama 1,626 and 264 brave soldiers have paid the ultimate price they could give for their country.

So Bush number's are 4,786 deaths and Obama's numbers are 1,890 troops in his presidency.

Now sure, Bush has been in power for 8 years and Obama just about 5 years but it is totally untrue that under Obama more troops were killed than under Bush. That only flies if you purely look at Afghanistan and last time I checked Bush almost completely bailed on fighting the terrorists in Afghanistan so that he could pursue his invasion of Iraq.

Also, I was not aware the drone strikes were happening in the US? And the ovens statement is not only nasty but downright insulting for Jewish people and all those who suffered at the hands of Adolf Hitler.
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Adolf Hitler is what we have in Obama now. He is targeting the middle class instead of a race of people but none the less targeting.

The 12-Year War: 73% of U.S. Casualties in Afghanistan on Obama's Watch
The 12-Year War: 73% of U.S. Casualties in Afghanistan on Obama's Watch | CNS News

■Obama has ordered seven times more drone strikes than Bush in the covert conflicts in Pakistan and Yemen, according to independent estimates.
Obama’s Numbers (Quarterly Update)
 
Kobie said:
:roll:

What tripe.
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No other President has forced commerce on the people. No other President has dictated what doctors we can see on not see. No other President has taken insurance coverage from one class and given it to another.
 
cpwill said:
:shrug: when you start to make an academic argument by citing a dictionary, typically you are in the 7th grade and writing your very first research paper.
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Unless all the dictionaries agree. At which point you might be on the wrong side of the argument.

cpwill said:
:shrug: maybe they would, and it would be no evidence whatsoever. The fact remains that there is heavy ideological overlap between the European National Socialists and the American Progressives of that era - because both were outgrowths of the same broad intellectual movement. The movements borrowed from their predecessors and each other, as well as the central planning experiments going on in the Soviet Union. Was Hitler anti-communist? Sure he was. For the same reason that Stalin was anti-Menshevik.

"..what we were doing in this country were some of the things that were being done in Russia and even some of the things that were done under Hitler in Germany. But we were doing them in an orderly way." Harold Ickes, Interior Secretary under FDR, citing the President.
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Once each ideology goes to their extreme they begin to resemble each other a lot more than they differ. Right wing ideology taken to its extreme becomes statist and nationalist as those become means of control. Left wing ideology when taken to its extreme is a bit different in the details but the nationalism and statism (and totalitarianism) are all still there.

Also I hope you'll pardon when I flinch at the use of the word "overlap," an approach that frequently tries to tie two unrelated concepts together by treating the irrelevant similarities as the important ones, an example being: Obama drinks coffee, Hitler drank coffee, ergo Obama emulates Hitler.
 
Rocketman said:
No other President has forced commerce on the people. No other President has dictated what doctors we can see on not see. No other President has taken insurance coverage from one class and given it to another.
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Yeah, still not Hitler.
 
Rocketman said:
No other President has forced commerce on the people. No other President has dictated what doctors we can see on not see. No other President has taken insurance coverage from one class and given it to another.
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Right. Because when history decided on what made Hitler uniquely evil, it was his national social health insurance system (which, by the way, isn't even Hitler's. It was started under Otto Von Bismarck in 1883). And then allllll the way at the bottom of the list there's something about invading Poland, concentration camps and blah blah blah whatever. Nope, forget that, it's the health insurance system.
 
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Cardinal said:
Right. Because when history decided on what made Hitler uniquely evil, it was his national social health insurance system (which, by the way, isn't even Hitler's. It was started under Otto Von Bismarck in 1883). And then allllll the way at the bottom of the list there's something about invading Poland, concentration camps and blah blah blah whatever. Nope, forget that, it's the health insurance system.
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Obama sucks, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it. what was your point again?
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
And you would only do that if you wanted to be accurate.

There is no denying that Fascism and its its step child, Nazism, came out of the left. Mussolini's father was a revolutionary socialist, blah blah blah... but then, one assumes that since you made that spike attempt, that you may have known about some of all of this, eh?
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Yes, and children always do as their fathers do :roll: Mussolini denounced socialism and started something that is close to the opposite of socialism, fascism. Do not get me wrong, fascist and communist dictators are about the same thing when it comes to the misdeeds they do but the do it out of 2 differing ideologies. Fascism is the ideology of right wing policies jumbled together with some left wing political elements in order to form a totalitarian, ultra-nationalist, anti-democratic, highly militaristic order which revels in anti revolutionary tactics like war, inequality, superiority principle of certain individuals, violence and worship of the state. Fascist are known as the opposite end of the spectrum towards communism.

Hitler might have used populist policies that communists often also use as a lure for the poor of Germany to rally around him, his policies have been shown to be the opposite of communism.

But as said, revisionist right wing individuals are not too happy with the filth at their end of the political spectrum and try to revise it so that it is the fault of the leftists (like they do with just about everything else in the universe that is not approved by them) instead of realizing that this filth of fascism and nazi might be right wing but that it has nothing to do with right wing policies as a whole. Own your black sheep (the nazi's and fascist) just like we of the left have to own our black sheep (the commies and their decades of terror and death) and be happy that we are no longer like that.

Someone from the right should feel sad that one time there was an extreme right but also be aware that it has nothing to do with a democratic right wing person of the here and now. You have no responsibility for the dark history that fascists and nazi perpetrated in the name of right wing ideology, it has nothing to do with right wing people of today. Learn from the mistakes of the past and move forward into a brighter future for right wing and conservative politics. And the same goes for left wing people, we should feel sad that there once was communism like Stalin and Mao etc. perpetrated but also be aware that it has nothing to do with democratic left wing person of the here and now. We have no responsibility for the dark history that communists perpetrated in the name of left wing ideology, it has nothing to do with left wing people of today. Learn from the mistakes of the past and move forward into a brighter future in the name of left wing and progressive politics.
 
Cardinal said:
Unless all the dictionaries agree. At which point you might be on the wrong side of the argument.
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:shrug: the re-writing of the Nazis as a right wing movement began post-WWII kickoff, and is still pretty well distributed throughout common understanding. However, only a couple of your cited definitions said that it was right wing - again, you are confusing "nationalism" with "conservatism", which is not historically accurate.

Once each ideology goes to their extreme they begin to resemble each other a lot more than they differ. Right wing ideology taken to its extreme becomes statist and nationalist as those become means of control. Left wing ideology when taken to its extreme is a bit different in the details but the nationalism and statism (and totalitarianism) are all still there.
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I thought you just said that liberalism taken to its extremes was communism? Communism included the express rejection of nationalism, arguing that the differences between nations were artificial clashes designed to allow the owning classes of each country to pit the proletariat against each other, to keep them from uniting.

Again, ideological movements cannot usually be placed in that kind of linear fashion. As an example, the extreme version of classic liberalism - which today we would call libertarianism - does not include a totalitarian (which, it is worth noting, was a deliberate fascist intellectual construct) state.

Also I hope you'll pardon when I flinch at the use of the word "overlap," an approach that frequently tries to tie two unrelated concepts together by treating the irrelevant similarities as the important ones, an example being: Obama drinks coffee, Hitler drank coffee, ergo Obama emulates Hitler.
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That's why it's caveated with "ideological". An example being: liberals generally look down on capital gains as "unearned income" and seek to confiscate it (and some seek to confiscate it all), national socialists generally looked down on capital gains as "unearned income" and sought to confiscate it (and some sought to confiscate it all), making this a position of ideological overlap between those two.
 
accidental repeat post.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
And I stand by mine, a much more accurate portrayal of the overall picture of what was/is going on. GW was pretty much successful in his military efforts, so was BJ, for the most part [ maybe a bit questionable on Haiti, certainly Somalia ]... not so much for the O... and again, just not that much difference in actual causalities, especially in light of accomplishment vs nothing much at all accomplished... and certainly not as much as you may want to try to make of it.
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The website I used is being called an "authoritative" record of MNF casualties in Iraq, and it's data is used by, among others, the BBC, Associated Press, Voice of America, NY times and the Washington Post.

The website gets it's data from: news reports and press releases from the U.S. Department of Defense, CENTCOM, the MNF, and the British Ministry of Defence.

Sorry but I have zero reason to doubt the data from Icasualties.

Face the facts, under George W. Bush a lot more soldiers died than under Obama and at a higher rate. But that is not his fault, it is to be expected if you invade and occupy a country of over 30 million people of which about 30 percent would love to kill you.

This is not a blame game but a statistics issue. I am not blaming George W. Bush personally for all these deaths but they did happen under his presidency. I am also not blaming Obama for the deaths under his presidency because that too is something that happens when you are waging a war on terror like Obama is.
 
Rocketman said:
Adolf Hitler is what we have in Obama now. He is targeting the middle class instead of a race of people but none the less targeting.

The 12-Year War: 73% of U.S. Casualties in Afghanistan on Obama's Watch
The 12-Year War: 73% of U.S. Casualties in Afghanistan on Obama's Watch | CNS News

■Obama has ordered seven times more drone strikes than Bush in the covert conflicts in Pakistan and Yemen, according to independent estimates.
Obama’s Numbers (Quarterly Update)
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And as the story said, the bigger number under Obama is all in Afghanistan and fact is that the majority of US soldiers died in Iraq and not Afghanistan.

You were lying by omission of a very important "limiting fact" namely that your claim only is about Afghanistan. If you had said more soldiers died under Obama in Afghanistan than under Bush I would have agreed with you on that. I would still have disagreed with you on what these numbers meant (seeing that more troops died in Iraq than in Afghanistan) and why more soldiers died in Afghanistan under Obama than Bush. I would have pointed to the surge that was needed because the eye had been taken off the ball (the true target of what the invasion should have been about, destroying the terrorists in Afghanistan) and the taliban was becoming stronger in Afghanistan again.

Yes, Obama has used more drone strikes compared to Bush. Bush however used more bombs from planes, cruise missiles and regular war tools to fight during his time as president. Obama is using drones to attack the people who want to destroy the United States and all the people that live there. Be happy he is using drones to go after the real enemies of the United States, IMHO.
 
Rocketman said:
Obama sucks, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it. what was your point again?
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You are absolutely within your right to think Obama sucks and to a point I will agree with you, he will not go into the history books as a great president but guess what, neither will his predecessor go into those history books as a great president. Some might actually call him an even worse president than Obama (I would be one of them) but that does not mean that I think Obama is that great a president.

It all comes down however in this poll is whether Obama is the most dishonest active politician and that is not the case IMHO, there are people way worse (like Bachmann) who qualify for that title.
 
Which one is the most dishonest active Politician?

Ya know I see a reality style TV show coming up!
 
winston53660 said:
Which one is the most dishonest active Politician?

Ya know I see a reality style TV show coming up!
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Yes, it is going to be called the crook of Washington. The styling is going to be like the voice. The judges are Karl Rove, J. Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, Gary Hart and John Edwards. The presenter will be Arnold Schwarzenegger.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
And you would only do that if you wanted to be accurate.

There is no denying that Fascism and its its step child, Nazism, came out of the left. Mussolini's father was a revolutionary socialist, blah blah blah... but then, one assumes that since you made that spike attempt, that you may have known about some of all of this, eh?
Click to expand...

You might want to read some original works by Mussolini. He was the "father" of modern fascism, and he stated that fascism is completely opposed to socialism and liberalism. Apparently YOU didn't know this particular fact. Here are some quotes from The Doctrine of Fascism by Benito Mussolini:

"Fascism is therefore opposed to Socialism"
"Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere."
"The Fascist negation of socialism, democracy, liberalism"

Mussolini* - THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM

I always enjoy watching right wingers attempt to paint fascism as a left wing ideology... and have that erroneous belief blown apart by the guy who developed the ideology in the 20th Century.
 
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