Do you think there is a correlation between teacher pay and quality of education?

chromium said:

Considering the best teachers I've had are without exception making $100k+ as professors, and how lousy and poorly compensated my K-12 teachers were, I'd say there's definitely a correlation. But also understand, there aren't enough PhD's to go around teaching K-12, if they're even willing to do that. Raising pay but keeping the same teachers isn't going to solve much.

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One other observation of your messages. Do college professors put their salaries on the wall?
In fact, many college professors have other employment and teach because they want to. They make most their money elsewhere.
Also, many college classes aren't taught by tenured professors at all.

Oh, and I don't think they were excellent professors as they did not teach you to check out facts. The average college/university professor makes $81,000 per year on average.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2006/snapshots/2.html

I did not say that..
But that is your usual meme joko..
You would have been fortunate to have had me for your teacher, as well as your childeren..
I don't ever feel good with that bragging since it is a conservative thing to do .

joko104 said:

Well we can have teachers getting fired or pregnant, can we?

The average person make 3 major career (not just employment) changes in their lives. But it would seem that you think if a teacher decides to do something different with his/her life, there is something wrong with the system.

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NIMBY said:

I did not say that..
But that is your usual meme joko..
You would have been fortunate to have had me for your teacher, as well as your childeren..
I don't ever feel good with that bragging since it is a conservative thing to do .

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Are you claiming they all (or most) left teaching because they found higher paying jobs?

Were you a good teacher? It would seem the OP is claiming it is unlikely because if you were you'd have left for a better paying job. How much did your salary affect your teaching ability?

joko104 said:

It also is an argument against higher pay as higher pay solicits people who are in teaching only for the money and don't care about students or teaching at all - only the pay check.

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So that story about someone who failed twice before becoming a teacher and, who knows, starting on his third failure, that story tells you that teaching should be a low-paying job?
Do you have kids?

not at all, you wouldn't understand what is inside teachers,
try understanding the "intrinsic" reward..
now carry on with your teacher bash-fest .

joko104 said:

Are you claiming they all (or most) left teaching because they found higher paying jobs?

Were you a good teacher? It would seem the OP is claiming it is unlikely because if you were you'd have left for a better paying job. How much did your salary affect your teaching ability?

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It took Limbaugh 3 times to get it right..
Two bankrupcies paid by Uncle Sam..
Took me 5 years to pay off my loans..
Now retired, I'm back at it for many reasons, and my nieces and nephews in college are at the top .

Grand Mal said:

So that story about someone who failed twice before becoming a teacher and, who knows, starting on his third failure, that story tells you that teaching should be a low-paying job?
Do you have kids?

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NIMBY said:

not at all, you wouldn't understand what is inside teachers,
try understanding the "intrinsic" reward..
now carry on with your teacher bash-fest .

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LOL on "teacher bash-fest" because I don't think all teachers should be paid at least $100K. Not to be insulting, I don't think your career was of vastly greater skills demand nor so greatly more burdensome than 95% of other people.

Please link to your messages of how police officers are underpaid.

Grand Mal said:

So that story about someone who failed twice before becoming a teacher and, who knows, starting on his third failure, that story tells you that teaching should be a low-paying job?
Do you have kids?

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Yes, I have kids.

Where in the hell are you getting the 100k number troll?
Police officer Number is a derailment of thread.
And you are insulting .

joko104 said:

LOL on "teacher bash-fest" because I don't think all teachers should be paid at least $100K. Not to be insulting, I don't think your career was of vastly greater skills demand nor so greatly more burdensome than 95% of other people.

Please link to your messages of how police officers are underpaid.

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At like $12,000 per student the problem is so little of that gets to the teacher. With trillion dollar deficits and racing towards national insolvency we should be spending something like $2500 a student. Great teachers could easily make 100-150,000 a yr with quality of education for the student a couple orders of magnitude better than it is at about 1/5 the expense to taxpayers. Money is not the problem, it is the poor design of the education system.

joko104 said:

One other observation of your messages. Do college professors put their salaries on the wall?
In fact, many college professors have other employment and teach because they want to. They make most their money elsewhere.
Also, many college classes aren't taught by tenured professors at all.

Oh, and I don't think they were excellent professors as they did not teach you to check out facts. The average college/university professor makes $81,000 per year on average.
MONEY Magazine's Best Jobs: College professor

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I've glanced at it as that info is required for public schools, but they make well over $100k. They're pretty much experts in their field and often have written one of the books or articles that are assigned. Keep in mind, i also conceded there aren't enough of these people to go around teaching every middle/high school classroom.

Mason66 said:

I have to ask how old you are because if you are not at least 38 years old, you don't have perspective enough to answer this question.

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If you say so. The fact it was relatively recent means i can remember quite clearly spending hours upon hours just copying by hand whole chapters out of textbooks, as their method of 'education.' But what else can we expect from someone who would rather review football tapes to prepare for his real job of coaching?

joko104 said:

One other observation of your messages. Do college professors put their salaries on the wall?
In fact, many college professors have other employment and teach because they want to. They make most their money elsewhere.
Also, many college classes aren't taught by tenured professors at all.

Oh, and I don't think they were excellent professors as they did not teach you to check out facts. The average college/university professor makes $81,000 per year on average.
MONEY Magazine's Best Jobs: College professor

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#1 - You are comparing apples to oranges with your statements. Your link refers to College Professors and the salary data refers to those whose primary employment would be full times. Statistically speaking part-time and temporary (adjunct faculty) are excluded as they would skew the results. So when you link to data showing career fields (which means full time employment) and then say that "they make most of their money elsewhere", you are incorrect. When someone is in a career field that is their primary employment.

#2 - Adjunct faculty are typically part-time or temporary employees whose primary duties are to teach selected classes, these are non-tenure track positions and individuals are not paid a "salary" (as in annual compensation) they are paid "piece-meal" meaning they contract to teach one or more specific classes and are then paid on a per class basis. Typically adjunct faculty doing such work are limited to the number of classes/hours so as not to qualify as a full time employee so they are excluded from benefits and retirement programs. Typically it is these types of people that may teach a couple of classes at each of an areas different schools if teaching is their primary source of income. Then their are those that are working professionals in their field and like to teach a class or two a year to supplement their income or provide some diversity in their activities by "giving back" and helping to develop the next generation of professionals.

#3 - Here is a link to some information on adjunct faculty and their compensation. The amount of compensation can vary widely depending on the school and the discipline. The handful of top schools can pay top dollar ($5000 - $6000) per class. My wife works at a university and a "full load" of teaching is usually 3-4 classes depending on if the person is a Department Chair or has another administrative position. For adjunct faculty that would be [5000 to 6000 * 2 (semesters per year) * 3 to 4 (classes per semester)] = $30,000 to $48,000 per year. Getting a full time "professor" position is not as easy as some may think.

#4 - Now think of community colleges v. mainstream universities v. top level tier 1 schools, most "adjunct" teaching jobs (by shear number) are going to be at the community college and sub-top tier universities where the compensation is going to be more like $1,200 per class (CC) to $3,000 (mid-level university). As I said my wife works at a university and their adjunct faculty pull $2,600 per class and are limited to no more than 2 classes per regular semester. That's $10,400 per year. They are allowed to pick up an extra class or two during summer breaks so add to that maximum annual another $5,200.



Adjunct Project Shows Wide Range in Pay and Working Conditions - Faculty - The Chronicle of Higher Education

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Phys251 said:

Before I even consider posting in this thread, how many people here actually have experience in education, and how many are just regurgitating the same stuff they hear from the corporate media?

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Military:
Qualified Master Training Specialist by the United States Navy. After doing operational tours as "the point of the spear" I was selected for instructor duty and the Navy's premier advanced avionics school completing one tour there and then another tour teaching electronic warfare a few years later. Out of 20 years I spent 7 years during which my primary focus was teaching.

Education:
My undergraduate degree is in Industrial Technology and my Masters is in Technology Education, combined with my military experience my intent was to become a Middle-School Technology Teacher.

Employment: When I "retired" from the Navy I had to make a tough call, being in my late 30's with a wife and two younger children to support - take a combined income (military retirement + new job earnings) cut of $12,000 per year or accept an offer from private industry which resulted in slightly more income each year. So instead of going into public education I took my experience and became a technical trainer for Canon (yes you may have heard the name, they make camera's, printers, and other consumer electronics). I enjoyed the work very much, and over the years it lead me more into databases, their usage and administration. The job I wanted was already occupied by someone that wasn't going anywhere and who was younger then I was (so wouldn't be retiring for a llllloooonnnnngggg time). So the opportunity came up and I applied for and accepted my current position. I'm the Human Resources Information Systems Administrator for a Public School system, that means I work with teacher licensure, benefits, and compensation data and issues as part of my job function.



Does that help?


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chromium said:

I've glanced at it as that info is required for public schools, but they make well over $100k. They're pretty much experts in their field and often have written one of the books or articles that are assigned. Keep in mind, i also conceded there aren't enough of these people to go around teaching every middle/high school classroom.

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But then your salary numbers don't work because they are making income off of their books.

Most teachers don't have PhDs. Do you think requiring teachers to be PhDs in return for $100K salaries would produce enough PhDs? Do you think someone needs a PhD to teach K-1? Really?

joko104 said:

Well we can have teachers getting fired or pregnant, can we?

The average person make 3 major career (not just employment) changes in their lives. But it would seem that you think if a teacher decides to do something different with his/her life, there is something wrong with the system.

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Let's put things into perspective here.
A new college grad who decides to opt for a teaching career has at least a year more of school ahead before even applying. Should he/she make the investment, including a student teaching semester in which no other job is possible (no time), and add another ten or twenty grand to the student loan debt, then he/she may apply to a school, along with a hundred or so other applicants. Should he/she be hired, then it's time to discover just how a lot of kids have been raised. It's a matter of sink or swim in most schools, and many sink, quit teaching, go to something else. Some get jobs in small schools where their policy is to keep teachers two years, then let them go to hire cheaper new grads. Some get jobs in charter schools where they are at will employees, and where the school may or may not be in business next year.

I started a teaching career in 1966, when there was a severe shortage of teachers and you could actually work on a credential while teaching and getting a paycheck. I stayed with it until 2001, when I was able to retire with a good pension (yes, there are financial perks to teaching, and retirement is one of them).

No way would I invest the money to get a teaching credential today. Schools are run by the state now, the curriculum is test centered, and the kids could care less about the test. Nevertheless, the mindless bureaucrats in charge (MBIC) have issued the edict that every child will pass the test whether they want to or not, whether they have an IQ of 80 or 120, whether or not they just got to the US from a nation where English is not spoken and kids don't go to school, it doesn't matter, according to the MBIC, every child has to pass a difficult multiple guess test, or the teacher has failed.

I can look back on a rewarding career, but would not want to be in the trenches fighting the MBIC and the economic realities of today, no thank you, not even in a community where the gangs are not yet in charge.

Dittohead not! said:

10% of the value of a child climbing out of poverty and dependence is quite a large contribution, is it not?

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Good God, do all teachers have this much of an inferiority complex?

Gipper said:

Good God, do all teachers have this much of an inferiority complex?

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I dunno. Why don't you try teaching sometime. You just might learn something.

Dittohead not! said:

I dunno. Why don't you try teaching sometime. You just might learn something.

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That's okay. I'll just do my job and get all up in my client's shizz and tell them, "I'm the reason the FBI ain't on your jock, bitches!".

I've never said that teaching is not an important job. I just don't think I'm the f'n alpha and omega like you guys do.

In other countries being a teachers are held to a higher standard. People aspire to be teachers, not just fall back on it when all else fails. Thats what we need here

iacardsfan said:

In other countries being a teachers are held to a higher standard. People aspire to be teachers, not just fall back on it when all else fails. Thats what we need here

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The last thing this country needs is our teaching populace being held to higher standards.

chromium said:

If you say so. The fact it was relatively recent means i can remember quite clearly spending hours upon hours just copying by hand whole chapters out of textbooks, as their method of 'education.' But what else can we expect from someone who would rather review football tapes to prepare for his real job of coaching?

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That is my point.

After 20 years of life rattling around in your head, you can remember the good teachers and all the rest fall away like they never existed.

If your school years were recent, then all the memories, and your childish opinions and judgements of the teachers, are fresh.

The truth is that you don't know why the teachers did what they did and you won't understand most of it until you have some life under your belt.

Hatuey said:

Living in Mexico, I have met quite a few people who work on both sides of the field in both private and public schools. As far as publics go, they are a mess. Teachers get paid to do basically nothing and couldn't care less if kids pass or not. As far as private schools go, teachers are worked like indentured servants without much hope of ever bettering themselves. So essentially, Mexico represents the worst of both worlds.

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So basically, avoid Mexico at all costs. Drugs, cartels, government corruption, and bad schools

iacardsfan said:

In other countries being a teachers are held to a higher standard. People aspire to be teachers, not just fall back on it when all else fails. Thats what we need here

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Despite what you may have heard, that's what we have here.

Dittohead not! said:

Despite what you may have heard, that's what we have here.

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In America, the wrong people aspire to be teachers. When I graduated, I got a degree. When education majors graduate, they get a soapbox and a cross.