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Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?

Is requiring voter photo ID a type of disenfranchisement?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
I don't own a car. I have a driver's license - renting is a necessity sometimes for me, and a passport. But many Americans do not drive at all and do not travel much.

Well it's not that hard to get a passport honestly it isn't or to get some other form of I.D.. The list of I.D. accepted here to vote is a rather long list.
 
Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

"On May 6, 2008, 12 fraudulent voters, dressed as nuns, attempted to cast ballots in the presidential primary in Indiana.Luckilyof them were caught, stopped cold by Indiana's new voter photo ID law. The law had been found to be constitutional by Federal Judge Richard Posner of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
It turns out the nuns that Posner's ruling turned away were, in fact, nuns. All the sisters had photo driver's licenses, but they had expired (the licenses, not the nuns). The Sisters of the Holy Cross, had, mercifully, given up driving (they were pushing 90 years of age.)
It was a cute story that ran nationwide. What wasn't so cute, and ran nowhere in the US press, was that 72,000 black voters were blocked at the polls by this Posner-blessed photo ID law."
"
In his newly released autobiography, the aging Posner, hearing the wings of mortality and the gavel of Judgment Day coming down, admits that he was stone cold wrong. Posner now concedes that that the voter ID rule was a Republican partisan ploy in intent and viciously racist in practice.
Posner, seeking forgiveness, says it wasn't his fault. He wasn't "really given strong indications that requiring additional voter identification would actually disfranchise people [who are] entitled to vote.""

Are these really Jim Crow laws?

Is this a voter disenfranchisement scheme?

Are these type laws partisan?

Excepting graveyards voting for LBJ in the 1960s, has this been a problem?

How many cases of voter fraud have been prosecuted in your neighborhood?

There have been almost NO cases of voter fraud. I don't believe your story from an article in a tea party site. Not exactly a news organization.

Yes, requiring voter ID is partisan, a form of disenfranchisement, and discriminatory. Most people have voter IDs. But for those who don't, it can be a hardship to get one.

Let's use me, for instance. I have a photo ID. But I don't have a certified copy of my birth certificiate (I have the ORIGINAL and ancient microfiche copy of it, but that will not be accepted by the govt as valid). I checked with my birth state's agency to see how long it would take me to get one, and how much it would cost. To get one within a month, it would cost about $50. If I were poor (and I used to be), I wouldn't be able to pay that. The cheaper way is by snail mail. The govt site said that would take 3 to 4 months and cost about $20 or so dollars. When I was poor, I maybe could've scraped together $20, but maybe not (I had about $5 of expendable income, after paying for minimum food, rent, and car note for my used car, and gas).

There is no widespread voter fraud going on. We have several instances of Republic politicians stating outright that the purpose of the new laws is to get Republicans voted and disenfranchise Democratic Party voters.

Even if it seems reasonable to you, there is really no reason for it, without a showing of widespread voter fraud. And there isn't any, and has never been.

I have my own glitches here in TX. A catch-22 of sorts. The STATE put my maiden name as my middle name on my driver's license. The state law requires that, so that's what the STATE did. My voter registration has my birth middle name. I may not be allowed to vote here in TX without the two matching, EVEN THOUGH THE STATE CAUSED THE DISCREPANCY. There was a female District Judge here in TX, on tv, explaining that she was not allowed to vote regularly for this very reason. She was required to sign an affidavit and file a provisional ballot. Even though she had been voting in that precinct for decades, had lived in the same address for decades, the address for both registration & DL was the same, she could show various forms of ID with both middle name and maiden name.

Women disproportionately vote Democratic, and the Tea Party is big in Texas. It is disenfranchisement, pure and simple. It's still in the court system, so hopefully this will be struck down, OR the state's requirement to use maiden name on driver's license will be struck down.

The Tea Partiers are so unethical and mean spirited, aren't they? One thing you can say about the Democratic Party, whatever that party's problems, is that you won't catch them disenfranchising anyone, even Republicans.
 
I do not understand why AMericans cannot obtain any of these:

Identity Cards

Driver's Licence
Health Card
Canadian Passport
Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (Citizenship Card)
Birth Certificate
Certificate of Indian Status (Status Card)
Social Insurance Number Card
Old Age Security Card
Student ID Card
Provincial/Territorial Identification Card
Liquor Identification Card
Hospital/Medical Clinic Card
Credit/Debit Card
Employee Card
Public Transportation Card
Library Card
Canadian Forces Identity Card
Veterans Affairs Canada Health Card
Canadian Blood Services/Héma-Québec Card
CNIB ID Card
Firearm Possession and Acquisition Licence or Possession Only Licence
Fishing, Trapping or Hunting Licence
Outdoors or Wildlife Card/Licence
Hospital bracelet worn by residents of long-term care facilities
Parolee Identification Card

Original documents
(with name and address)

Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water)
Bank/Credit Card Statement
Vehicle Ownership/Insurance
Correspondence issued by a school, college or university
Statement of Government Benefits (employment insurance, old age security, social assistance, disability support or child tax benefit)
Attestation of Residence issued by the responsible authority of a First Nations band or reserve
Government Cheque or Cheque Stub
Pension Plan Statement of Benefits, Contributions or Participation
Residential Lease/Mortgage Statement
Income/Property Tax Assessment Notice
Insurance Policy
Letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
One of the following, issued by the responsible authority of a shelter, soup kitchen, student/senior residence, or long-term care facility: Attestation of Residence, Letter of Stay, Admission Form or Statement of Benefits

Note: You need one form the identity card category and one form the original document category.

Seriously how hard is it to get a library card? Though you can avoid all of this by having a health card or provincial ID which have photos.
 
You are kidding right? If I dont have my papers, am I not an American?

If you can't prove you're an American, you shouldn't be able to engage in the activities that require you to be an American.
 
When you hear someone say "Let's see your papers." what is the first thing that comes into your mind?

They're an idiot? Or a liberal. Same thing, really.
 
I am all for having an ID to vote, but if I forget mine in my office desk I should still be allowed to vote. If I lie about it arrest me and charge me with a felony. The default should be to allow people to vote. There is almost no fraud anyway.
If you can't prove you're an American, you shouldn't be able to engage in the activities that require you to be an American.
 
I am all for having an ID to vote, but if I forget mine in my office desk I should still be allowed to vote. If I lie about it arrest me and charge me with a felony. The default should be to allow people to vote. There is almost no fraud anyway.

Why should you be allowed to do something because you are irresponsible? You can go back and get it. You can just be responsible in the first place. Why do you think you get special treatment because you're irresponsible?
 
That's kind of my point Boo...

I imagine it's reasonable to suggest Fraud is happening to some degree, . The human condition suggests there will always be someone attempting to beat any system that exists. And even now there has at least been occasional legitimate cases. But in a more over arching notion, you're right that there's a big question of how much and what's it's impact.

In that regard, I can't honestly answer. It could be that the amount of Fraud is ridiculously miniscule and entirely insignificant. Or it could be a sizable portion that could have an impact. Or it could be somewhere in between.

Your comment about proof, and measurable numbers, speaks to my issue though. Essentially, as the laws and methods largely stand now, I don't think there are a lot of very efficient and sure fire ways to absolutely "prove" whether fraud is happening or not. Essentially, the way the system is currently set up, "proving" fraud is extremely difficult. As such, the lack of evidence of substantial fraud at the moment doesn't necessarily convince me or prove to me that fraud simply does not exist or does not exist in any meaningful way. It simply means that it doesn't exist in such a way that can be unquestionably proven under the current system.

To give you an analogy in regards to what I'm saying (though not a direct analogy to this specific situation)....

Say the only way I can "prove" something was stolen is to physically see a person gain possession and remove the item. Then say that I'm sat in front of a brick wall, with a bunch of large diamonds placed behind it. I see two people come up to the wall, disappear behind it, then reappear on the other side with a bag that has an approximately large diamond sized object in it.

Under the current criteria I'm operating under in terms of "proving" something, I can not "prove" that they stole the diamond. If I told someone we should take down that wall so I could see where the Diamonds are sitting to prevent theft, a person could accurately say "Why? There's no proven diamond thefts that are occuring". Technically, they're right...there's no proven diamond thefts occuring because the current structure of the rules make it so that it can't be proven. However, the fact it can't be proven under the given circumstances doesn't necessarily prove that it isn't happening.

-----------

What I'm basically saying Boo is that you're right...we can't prove that voter fraud is happening at a significant level. I'm simply suggesting that those who claim there's "proof" that it's happening at an insiginificant level are not believable or credible in my opinion, because I don't believe the current system makes definitive "proof" of such far too difficult to obtain for it to be a meaningful statement to base a decision on either way.

If something is stolen, I can prove it was there, and now it isn't. That will show me it is happening. If the Diamonds are gone, I know it was stolen, even if I can't say the stole it.

Most things are measurable. I think this is as well. We certainly do catch some, very few, and it is reasonable to suggest if we can catch them, likely we can catch others. I should be able to show ballots that were counted that are not valid. That would show the problem. I also suggest that we can know this if we really want to know it.

I would spend more time here, but I am really late for my next meeting. I'll try to spend more time on your answer.
 
I am all for having an ID to vote, but if I forget mine in my office desk I should still be allowed to vote. If I lie about it arrest me and charge me with a felony. The default should be to allow people to vote. There is almost no fraud anyway.

Sure as long as your thumbprint is taken when you register and if you have no ID, you get printed and a provisional ballot that does not count unless the computer says your thumbprint matches. Errors go in favor of burning your ballot.
 
Fine, but the default is allowing the vote, say until the person is convicted of voter fraud. Why would you want to default to be buring the vote? I think I brought up finderprinting them witout ID a long time ago, great idea.
Sure as long as your thumbprint is taken when you register and if you have no ID, you get printed and a provisional ballot that does not count unless the computer says your thumbprint matches. Errors go in favor of burning your ballot.
 
I do not understand why AMericans cannot obtain any of these:

Identity Cards

Driver's Licence
Health Card
Canadian Passport
Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (Citizenship Card)
Birth Certificate
Certificate of Indian Status (Status Card)
Social Insurance Number Card
Old Age Security Card
Student ID Card
Provincial/Territorial Identification Card
Liquor Identification Card
Hospital/Medical Clinic Card
Credit/Debit Card
Employee Card
Public Transportation Card
Library Card
Canadian Forces Identity Card
Veterans Affairs Canada Health Card
Canadian Blood Services/Héma-Québec Card
CNIB ID Card
Firearm Possession and Acquisition Licence or Possession Only Licence
Fishing, Trapping or Hunting Licence
Outdoors or Wildlife Card/Licence
Hospital bracelet worn by residents of long-term care facilities
Parolee Identification Card

Original documents
(with name and address)

Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water)
Bank/Credit Card Statement
Vehicle Ownership/Insurance
Correspondence issued by a school, college or university
Statement of Government Benefits (employment insurance, old age security, social assistance, disability support or child tax benefit)
Attestation of Residence issued by the responsible authority of a First Nations band or reserve
Government Cheque or Cheque Stub
Pension Plan Statement of Benefits, Contributions or Participation
Residential Lease/Mortgage Statement
Income/Property Tax Assessment Notice
Insurance Policy
Letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
One of the following, issued by the responsible authority of a shelter, soup kitchen, student/senior residence, or long-term care facility: Attestation of Residence, Letter of Stay, Admission Form or Statement of Benefits

Note: You need one form the identity card category and one form the original document category.

Seriously how hard is it to get a library card? Though you can avoid all of this by having a health card or provincial ID which have photos.

Unless a guardian is something different in Canada, someone with a guardian should not be allowed to vote because they have been deemed legally incompetent or are a minor.
 
Well it's not that hard to get a passport honestly it isn't or to get some other form of I.D.. The list of I.D. accepted here to vote is a rather long list.

It takes a certified copy of a birth certificate, unless you already have photo govt ID and are getting yet another one. I checked.

I have a valid driver's license. But to get a passport, I would need to produce an original certified copy of my birth certificate. I have the original microfiche (which is ancient, at this point), but that won't do. To get a certified copy of my birth certificate from my birth state's records would take about $20 or so dollars and 3 to 4 months. I could get it faster by online application and payment, but that would cost $50. Even then, it would take maybe a month and cost about $50. I can pay that, but many poor people can't. If you've never been poor, that can be hard to believe or understand. There was a time that I had maybe $5 of expendable income per month after paying rent, minimal groceries (cans of green beans on sale), and used car note. Paying $50 would've been a daunting amount.

Now, having to pay what to me would've been an exorbitant amount for something is one thing. But having to pay it in order to exercise my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE is another. If the state requires me to have a certified copy of my birth certificate, the state should pay for it. Otherwise, my right to vote has in effect been taken away.
 
Fine, but the default is allowing the vote, say until the person is convicted of voter fraud. Why would you want to default to be buring the vote? I think I brought up finderprinting them witout ID a long time ago, great idea.

Because if it is not definitely them, the vote should not count. Don't want folks altering their thumbprints to cast a ballot. Bring you ID or your thumb or no vote. Besides, it will give the FBI a set of fingerprints with identities to compare against unsolved crimes so the democratic base goes to the pokie. It will "disenfranchise" even more people than an ID requirement would so it works even better.
 
Unless a guardian is something different in Canada, someone with a guardian should not be allowed to vote because they have been deemed legally incompetent or are a minor.

Well a public guardian is basically a government lawyer to my understanding.
 
I have never proposed allowing people who should not vote be allowed to.
Because if it is not definitely them, the vote should not count. Don't want folks altering their thumbprints to cast a ballot. Bring you ID or your thumb or no vote. Besides, it will give the FBI a set of fingerprints with identities to compare against unsolved crimes so the democratic base goes to the pokie. It will "disenfranchise" even more people than an ID requirement would so it works even better.
 
I have never proposed allowing people who should not vote be allowed to.

I did not say you did make such a proposal. I err on the side of prove it or lose it.
 
Well, like I said both sides shouldn't be trying to prevent Citizens from voting. But you can see how it is played here in Chicago. Kinda like who has to run for Jesse Jackson juniors seat. Wherein it just can't be any one that's from the district.

I don't see a problem with how it is played in Chicago. Its when people try to disenfranchise voters actively that bothers me.
 
I don't see a problem with how it is played in Chicago. Its when people try to disenfranchise voters actively that bothers me.

Well it should.....considering the Jacksons live out of DC and have for years. Even with his OL lady being a Councilwoman.
 
Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

Naughty Nuns, Bad Bankers and Ballot Bandits

"On May 6, 2008, 12 fraudulent voters, dressed as nuns, attempted to cast ballots in the presidential primary in Indiana.Luckilyof them were caught, stopped cold by Indiana's new voter photo ID law. The law had been found to be constitutional by Federal Judge Richard Posner of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
It turns out the nuns that Posner's ruling turned away were, in fact, nuns. All the sisters had photo driver's licenses, but they had expired (the licenses, not the nuns). The Sisters of the Holy Cross, had, mercifully, given up driving (they were pushing 90 years of age.)
It was a cute story that ran nationwide. What wasn't so cute, and ran nowhere in the US press, was that 72,000 black voters were blocked at the polls by this Posner-blessed photo ID law."
"
In his newly released autobiography, the aging Posner, hearing the wings of mortality and the gavel of Judgment Day coming down, admits that he was stone cold wrong. Posner now concedes that that the voter ID rule was a Republican partisan ploy in intent and viciously racist in practice.
Posner, seeking forgiveness, says it wasn't his fault. He wasn't "really given strong indications that requiring additional voter identification would actually disfranchise people [who are] entitled to vote.""

Are these really Jim Crow laws?

Is this a voter disenfranchisement scheme?

Are these type laws partisan?

Excepting graveyards voting for LBJ in the 1960s, has this been a problem?

How many cases of voter fraud have been prosecuted in your neighborhood?


Everyone should be required to present (at no cost to them) voter ID when they vote.
 
Actually, some, perhaps even most where introduced before VRA was struck down.

The most intrusive ones have been brought about post-VRA though. aka North Carolina
 
I voted other. I know how I feel about this but I just don't know what to think about it.

We have no data on the impact of voter fraud because the laws are extremely lax or never enforced.

I don't have a problem with requiring ID for voting. I don't have a problem with people being required to register to vote 60 days before the election. I would make one exception to that for someone that turns 18 during that 60 day window. I don't like early voting but I can see how that cuts down on long lines that could discourage those with health limitations from voting. I suppose early voting is fine. In North Carolina early voting last 14 days. Long lines were still a problem the Saturday before the election in my county.

I worked the polls on election day for a local candidate. I seen many people complaining because they weren't allowed to vote on election day because they weren't registered to vote. These non-voters made accusations that they were being discriminated against because the Chief Judge at the poll was a Republican.* I think you should register to vote on your 18th birthday and show your driver's license when you vote. Some people are too irresponsible to get a driver's license or a government issued ID card. Some people are too irresponsible to register to vote until their cousin, neighbor or political activist twists their arm during the hype of the election season. Then they decide to register to vote on election day. I suppose these irresponsible people deserve to voice their opinion too. I know how I feel about this but I don't know what to think about it.

vasuderatorrent

*The Chief Judge was a democrat. North Carolina law requires all Cheif Judges at the polls to be the same party as the governor which was a democrat on the day of the 2012 election.
 
But WHY do they have ID issues? How difficult is it to get an ID? Certainly easier than to figure out who to vote for, or what some Proposal XYZ, version 13 on the ballot even means.



How about college students who, in some states, are no longer allowed to use their college IDs to vote? Do you think that they carry their birth certificates in their back pocket? In some crazy places you need an ID to get an ID..
 
They're an idiot? Or a liberal. Same thing, really.




That's your off the wall opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, and which I will ignore.


Most people would have a different answer and I believe that you know what that answer would be.




"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers.

Have a nice day.
 
I'm curious to know how many people don't have a valid photo identification. How does one open a bank account without a valid I.D.? It can't be done. Cash a check at a currency exchange? At a bank? It can't be done. Sign up for welfare? God!! I hope! it can't be done. Buy a house? Can't be done. Open a charge account? Can't be done. Sign up for Social Security? Can't be done.

Who are these people who don't have photo identification? And how are they living their lives?



It probably depends on where you live.. I seldom have had to show an ID for any of those things.. The last time I had to show my ID was at the post office to pick up the mail, because there was a new postal employee there, and the time before that was to get on a plane..
 
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