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Do you support Obamacare?

Should Obamacare be eliminated?

  • No, Obamacare is great and more important than everything else combined

    Votes: 8 13.8%

  • Yes, dump the lemon before it causes more suffering.

    Votes: 26 44.8%

  • No, but it needs MAJOR serious changes.

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • Yes, replace it with real universal health care.

    Votes: 20 34.5%
  • Total voters
    58
I spoke with a good friend yesterday about Obamacare. This is a really smart guy especially with numbers and holds degrees in economics and accounting. He's also a diehard Tea Party supporter who breathes Fox News Channel and sends me about 25 or so Obama bashing emails a week, always something he forwarded from somewhere else or copied and pasted; never anything he wrote originally. That's fine and I know he's busy. He just does not like the President and is in deep in the current right-wing political culture. I'm pretty sure few actually write their own original anti-Obama stuff and I'm not complaining; just giving some insight on where he is politically.

He presented a good case for health insurance premiums going up factoring in the tens of millions of people who will soon have their healthcare expenses including but not limited to pre-existing conditions and no lifetime limits added to the gross national healthcare costs that will inevitably force everyone's health insurance premiums to go up. This is somebody I highly respect when it comes to money so I cannot just dismiss what he says. However, I asked him what factor would the tens of millions of new people now paying monthly premiums to a health insurance policy would play who previously were simply showing up at the ER for free, the most expensive place to get healthcare. This often after their condition has reached advanced stages and is more expensive to treat and then those costs were previously passed onto the hospitals to absorb who pass it on to insured patients who end up paying larger premiums or taxes to cover the costs of the uninsured who will soon be paying for their own insurance. He was almost completely lost for words and seemingly forgot that under Obamacare 50 million new people will soon start PAYING premiums every month and hospitals will no longer have to factor into their business model the costs of a load of expensive patients who show up at the er with no insurance. He eventually came up with something to do with gold, silver and bronze plans and the people with the more expensive plans will have to subsidize people with low budget plans and the government costs of hiring some incalculable number of federal workers to regulate the American healthcare industry but the question did seem to catch him off guard.

My thinking is even if the 50 million presently uninsured are paying less than what the most expensive gold plan cost, wouldn't paying into a less expensive plan still SIGNIFICANTLY CONTRIBUTE to the overall costs of healthcare? I just ran the math (admittedly not my best subject) and if 50 million people all of a sudden start paying health insurance premiums of just $75 a month each and I suspect that's a really, really, really low estimate; that's a new almost $45 billion a year to underwrite the costs of healthcare, most of whom are healthier younger people who won't require expensive treatment.

Do those who don't like Obamacare due to concerns over costs consider the fact that a new market of 50 million people will soon be paying premiums or are they only thinking 50 million people will get to go to the doctor?
 
joko104 said:
So you support everything and then will just see how it goes.
Click to expand...

Support what? I all I hear is a bunch of talking politicians. Which one do I believe? Give me 5 years and get back to me.

vasuderatorrent
 
iguanaman said:
Why not get insurance now that you can and stop gambling that you won't be bankrupted by some accident. It is childish to think that you are immune from harm.
At least find out what you can qualify for at your income level before you ride bareback thru life.
Click to expand...

That would be foolish given none of us can be turned down if something does happen. So why not wait until then?

Insurance is just gambling, nothing else. No medical condition could bankrupt us in the worse case senario. Although greatly diminished now, over the last 6 years my wife's medical related expensive tops well over $500K. We have no debts, medical or otherwise.

Our income levels would not qualify us to be able to get others to pay any of the insurance premiums, most doctors we use don't want or outright won't accept insurance, and for us I see it as a bad gamble.

The entire premise of insurance is that the premiums ultimately will cost you more than the benefits you received. Thinking you win by buying insurance is like thinking you'll make money gambling in Las Vegas - other than the odds are better at casinos than the payout of insurance companies.

For people who aren't seniors and with children who have limited savings, what would be more ethical would be to buy life insurance, not health insurance, to prevent their children becoming destitute if the parent(s) die.

Finally, if you have little to no money, it makes more sense to preserve the option of bankruptcy and keep the extra thousands of dollars a year, that barely make it hand to mouth due to paying massive insurance premiums.
 
Redress said:
I think pretty much everything in this post is a lie. Don't believe any of it.
Click to expand...

Got proof? "I think" pretty much means you're saying that it is a lie in your opinion.
 
Smeagol said:
I spoke with a good friend yesterday about Obamacare. This is a really smart guy especially with numbers and holds degrees in economics and accounting. He's also a diehard Tea Party supporter who breathes Fox News Channel and sends me about 25 or so Obama bashing emails a week, always something he forwarded from somewhere else or copied and pasted; never anything he wrote originally. That's fine and I know he's busy. He just does not like the President and is in deep in the current right-wing political culture. I'm pretty sure few actually write their own original anti-Obama stuff and I'm not complaining; just giving some insight on where he is politically.

He presented a good case for health insurance premiums going up factoring in the tens of millions of people who will soon have their healthcare expenses including but not limited to pre-existing conditions and no lifetime limits added to the gross national healthcare costs that will inevitably force everyone's health insurance premiums to go up. This is somebody I highly respect when it comes to money so I cannot just dismiss what he says. However, I asked him what factor would the tens of millions of new people now paying monthly premiums to a health insurance policy would play who previously were simply showing up at the ER for free, the most expensive place to get healthcare. This often after their condition has reached advanced stages and is more expensive to treat and then those costs were previously passed onto the hospitals to absorb who pass it on to insured patients who end up paying larger premiums or taxes to cover the costs of the uninsured who will soon be paying for their own insurance. He was almost completely lost for words and seemingly forgot that under Obamacare 50 million new people will soon start PAYING premiums every month and hospitals will no longer have to factor into their business model the costs of a load of expensive patients who show up at the er with no insurance. He eventually came up with something to do with gold, silver and bronze plans and the people with the more expensive plans will have to subsidize people with low budget plans and the government costs of hiring some incalculable number of federal workers to regulate the American healthcare industry but the question did seem to catch him off guard.

My thinking is even if the 50 million presently uninsured are paying less than what the most expensive gold plan cost, wouldn't paying into a less expensive plan still SIGNIFICANTLY CONTRIBUTE to the overall costs of healthcare? I just ran the math (admittedly not my best subject) and if 50 million people all of a sudden start paying health insurance premiums of just $75 a month each and I suspect that's a really, really, really low estimate; that's a new almost $45 billion a year to underwrite the costs of healthcare, most of whom are healthier younger people who won't require expensive treatment.

Do those who don't like Obamacare due to concerns over costs consider the fact that a new market of 50 million people will soon be paying premiums or are they only thinking 50 million people will get to go to the doctor?
Click to expand...

50 million people are NOT going to start paying premiums. Rather, the IRS is going to be hunting 40 million people and taking the penalty for not having insurance out of their tax returns if they have a job and have anything coming back.

Second, how you figure 50 million people paying $75 a month are going to pay for 100 million other people whose medical bills average $10,000 per year is what you see as "good math?" The average family of 4 now costs over $20,000 per year in medical expenses. Now, added to that, is an expectation they also pay for insurance to those who don't have any? And you think a hope that 50 million people will just decide for some reason to pay $75 a month and none of them will need $1 in healthcare costs too will pay for all that????

You are correct that you aren't very good with math.
 
I have never supported Obamacare, and I don't support it now.

As I see it (and saw it), it is a corruption-laden bill which will provide benefits - not to the people it claims to help, but to the various medical and health-care corporations who lobbied for it.

And, contrary to what some believe, I don't think it will do ANYTHING to improve health care. Rather the opposite. So the argument of "get this passed and we can improve on it later" seems ridiculous.



For all I know, some form of UHC is a good idea. But this ain't it.
 
Ok, so now of the people who stated that they liked Obamcare, how many of you actually pay for your own insurance?
 
tech30528 said:
Ok, so now of the people who stated that they liked Obamcare, how many of you actually pay for your own insurance?
Click to expand...
I'm in the opposite situation, kinda - I dislike Obamacare, and I don't have any insurance.
 
tech30528 said:
Ok, so now of the people who stated that they liked Obamcare, how many of you actually pay for your own insurance?
Click to expand...

Not sure whether you consider me having paid for my own or not. Like the majority of Americans I purchase my insurance through my employer. My employer pays the majority of the cost, but really it's all rolled into the compensation package they were willing to offer me. So it's money paid on my behalf, from my employer to the insurance company, but it never passes through my hands.

Of course, if Obamacare is synonymous with ACA my employer is now required to provide the insurance or face a penalty, and they're also limited in what they can offer to meet the requirement under ACA. So my employer and the health insurance I purchase and all that is affected by ACA. And I support ACA. Even if I don't believe it's better than everything else in existence combined.
 
joko104 said:
That would be foolish given none of us can be turned down if something does happen. So why not wait until then?

Insurance is just gambling, nothing else. No medical condition could bankrupt us in the worse case senario. Although greatly diminished now, over the last 6 years my wife's medical related expensive tops well over $500K. We have no debts, medical or otherwise.

Our income levels would not qualify us to be able to get others to pay any of the insurance premiums, most doctors we use don't want or outright won't accept insurance, and for us I see it as a bad gamble.

The entire premise of insurance is that the premiums ultimately will cost you more than the benefits you received. Thinking you win by buying insurance is like thinking you'll make money gambling in Las Vegas - other than the odds are better at casinos than the payout of insurance companies.

For people who aren't seniors and with children who have limited savings, what would be more ethical would be to buy life insurance, not health insurance, to prevent their children becoming destitute if the parent(s) die.

Finally, if you have little to no money, it makes more sense to preserve the option of bankruptcy and keep the extra thousands of dollars a year, that barely make it hand to mouth due to paying massive insurance premiums.
Click to expand...

If you have paid $500,000 in medical expenses I'de say you already lost the gamble. There's no way you would have paid that much in premiums.
Most of us do not have that kind of cash to lay out anyway.
By the way there is no gamble that everyone will need medical care eventually.
 
The ACA is a tax,,according to the SCOTUS,,so do you like taxes?
 
Hiram said:
The ACA is a tax,,according to the SCOTUS,,so do you like taxes?
Click to expand...
Everyone who even glanced at it knew it was a tax anyway - SCOTUS just made them call it that, finally.
 
Hiram said:
The ACA is a tax,,according to the SCOTUS,,so do you like taxes?
Click to expand...

Depends on how they are used. In this case, it would be going for something I support.
 
Obamacare fundamentally changed the United States. Prior to Obamacare, all Americans were born free. With Obamacare, all Americans as adults are indebted to annual servitude to corporate America. The only alternative to remaining a citizen in good standing is to pay an annual bribe/tax to the government as the penalty for being a living American unwilling to do thousands or thousands upon thousands of dollars in corporate servitude.
 
I didn't answer the poll question. I wanted to answer, no.

No, because it is law. Let's see how it works or don't work. How can I possible agree/disagree with it? I think some people are against the Affordable Care Act because Obama is the anti-christ and anything he does is the work of the devil. I'm not sure you can reason with that logic.

vasuderatorrent
 
joko104 said:
The reality?
Click to expand...
Yes lets look at the reality.


Insurance for the poor was cancelled after only 133,000 people.
Click to expand...
Only number i caould find for these 133,000 poor people is this
"Medicaid is expanding to 138 percent of the poverty level which means an estimated 133,000"
WV MetroNews – Health insurance marketplace opens Tuesday


Insurance premiums have gone up from 20% to 100% for less coverage.
Click to expand...
Missing a big point here. Premiums on average are actually rising way slower now...
" But we’ll also point out some missing context: The rate of increase between 2008 and 2013 was significantly lower than it was between 1999 and 2008.

From 2008 to 2013, premiums rose by an average of 5.8 percent per year. But between 1999 and 2008, premiums rose by an average of 13.2 percent a year -- in other words, twice as fast as premiums rose under Obama."
PolitiFact | Republican National Committee says health insurance premiums have risen 29 percent under Barack Obama

High deductables make it so many people with such insurance still can not afford major medical care.
Click to expand...
deductables have always been relatively high.

Millions of employees have lost their employment insurance - something that could not happen prior to Obamacare.
Click to expand...
The million that "loose their coverage" will then be covered via exchanges, and its not like historically people never lost their coverage before the ACA.
"According to CBO’s "baseline" estimates, 3 million people will spurn their employer’s offer of insurance and turn instead to another source, such as the health insurance "exchanges" created under the Obama health care law. In many cases, they will do this because they consider the employer’s offering to be unaffordable or lacking too many features they need.
CBO projects that, overall, the number of uninsured Americans will drop by 29 million to 31 million due to the law.
As we have previously noted, many Americans lose their current health plan for reasons that have nothing to do with the new law, though figuring out exactly how many is surprisingly tricky."
PolitiFact | Mitt Romney says up to 20 million will lose health insurance due to Obama health care law

Millions of people have been laid off or reduced to part-time employees.
Click to expand...
"Suggestions that business are laying off workers because of the health care law have so far proven to be largely unfounded. Most small businesses -- those with fewer than 50 employees -- do not have to provide health insurance to their employees. (In fact, some very small businesses with fewer than 25 employees may qualify for tax credits under the law.) " http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/sep/24/top-16-myths-about-health-care-law/

An increasing number of doctors are refusing to accept insurance or retiring.
Click to expand...
This has been a problem even before the ACA.

The government faces long term shut down and gridlock.
Congress had degraded to extreme militant partisanship.
We are days away from massive national and worldwide economic collapse. Basically to destroy everything else, cause world chaos and probably millions worldwide starving to death - all to have Obamacare.
To name a few "downsides" to Obamacare" - a title the President wants it to have.
Click to expand...
This isnt the ACA's fault this is the fault of a certain group not getting their way in gov and shut it down because they didnt get their way.
 
Re: Do you support ObamaCare?

I was torn between it needs MAJOR SERIOUS CHANGES and dump the whole thing .. and I voted for the former.

Major serious changes would be to scrap most of it and instead truly address the foundational price-gouging that exists in the health-care and insurance industries to thereby greatly lower costs and thus make care more affordable to more people. Though difficult to do in a free market, that still is the foundational issue.

I realize that universal healthcare in these greatly over-populated times is impossible outside of decadent socialism, and is thus a fantasy cart-before-the-horse. We must drastically reduce the population change rate to a significantly negative number for a few generations before the likelihood of a naturally-occurring universal healthcare scenario is realistically possible.
 
Boo Radley said:
Depends on how they are used. In this case, it would be going for something I support.
Click to expand...

But when? How can there be something you cannot sign up for? I tried,,,,,,,yes,,,three times last night,,could not,,got hung up on when I called,,and when the live chat was tried,,,the print said wait until Tuesday.....
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Yes lets look at the reality.



Only number i caould find for these 133,000 poor people is this
"Medicaid is expanding to 138 percent of the poverty level which means an estimated 133,000"
WV MetroNews – Health insurance marketplace opens Tuesday



Missing a big point here. Premiums on average are actually rising way slower now...
" But we’ll also point out some missing context: The rate of increase between 2008 and 2013 was significantly lower than it was between 1999 and 2008.

From 2008 to 2013, premiums rose by an average of 5.8 percent per year. But between 1999 and 2008, premiums rose by an average of 13.2 percent a year -- in other words, twice as fast as premiums rose under Obama."
PolitiFact | Republican National Committee says health insurance premiums have risen 29 percent under Barack Obama


deductables have always been relatively high.


The million that "loose their coverage" will then be covered via exchanges, and its not like historically people never lost their coverage before the ACA.
"According to CBO’s "baseline" estimates, 3 million people will spurn their employer’s offer of insurance and turn instead to another source, such as the health insurance "exchanges" created under the Obama health care law. In many cases, they will do this because they consider the employer’s offering to be unaffordable or lacking too many features they need.
CBO projects that, overall, the number of uninsured Americans will drop by 29 million to 31 million due to the law.
As we have previously noted, many Americans lose their current health plan for reasons that have nothing to do with the new law, though figuring out exactly how many is surprisingly tricky."
PolitiFact | Mitt Romney says up to 20 million will lose health insurance due to Obama health care law


"Suggestions that business are laying off workers because of the health care law have so far proven to be largely unfounded. Most small businesses -- those with fewer than 50 employees -- do not have to provide health insurance to their employees. (In fact, some very small businesses with fewer than 25 employees may qualify for tax credits under the law.) " PolitiFact | Top 16 myths about the health care law


This has been a problem even before the ACA.


This isnt the ACA's fault this is the fault of a certain group not getting their way in gov and shut it down because they didnt get their way.
Click to expand...

Shut down because the POTUS refuses to negotiate. He broke his law by handing out exemptions,,,,,the House wanted a one year postponement,,,,,and equality for everyone,,,,,yet the King said no.
 
Hiram said:
Shut down because the POTUS refuses to negotiate. He broke his law by handing out exemptions,,,,,the House wanted a one year postponement,,,,,and equality for everyone,,,,,yet the King said no.
Click to expand...
:doh Dont mind that the republicans didnt get their way so THEY in fact shutdown the gov. Hell they threatened to do so and they followed through...
 
Hiram said:
But when? How can there be something you cannot sign up for? I tried,,,,,,,yes,,,three times last night,,could not,,got hung up on when I called,,and when the live chat was tried,,,the print said wait until Tuesday.....
Click to expand...

Not the first thing to experience difficulty. Won't be the last. In the modern age, patience goes a long way.
 
Hiram said:
Shut down because the POTUS refuses to negotiate. He broke his law by handing out exemptions,,,,,the House wanted a one year postponement,,,,,and equality for everyone,,,,,yet the King said no.
Click to expand...

Doesn't change anything. It's still the law, exemptions or not.
 
Boo Radley said:
Not the first thing to experience difficulty. Won't be the last. In the modern age, patience goes a long way.
Click to expand...

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa,,,to me,,Patience is the name of a blonde beauty,,,,not Obamacare! lol
 
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