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If prostitution were legal...

If prostitution were legal... would pimps be "necessary"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 5.6%

  • No

    Votes: 27 75.0%

  • Other

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Total voters
    36
ChrisL said:
The EU is not America. I couldn't care less about the EU. I think legalization here in America would certainly make things safer in a variety of ways for all parties involved.

Legalization and regulation would make it easier to track and control who is and who is not prostituting themselves with special licensing requirements, etc. How you think that would have the opposite effect, I don't know but I can't make sense of where you're coming from at all.
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Special licensing requirements? Again, you're under the silly belief that human traffickers will simply go through the trouble of becoming licensed pimps when they can force somebody to work for free. What? You think our system will start giving out free/cheap licenses for whorehouses? Free/cheap licenses to become prostitutes? If a person can't get a gun without a background check and service costs, you think the government make it cheap and easy to become a prostitute? Hahahaha. May I offer you some seaside property in Missouri?
 
sbrettt said:
I have no clue where you got that impression? :confused: I don't think condoms are really all that effective at stopping AIDS. The real I'm thinking it would be safer is if it's regulating you could have mandatory testing for legal prostitutes, or have a documents proving they got testing so people know who has.
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You and ChrisL seem to have the same problem. You think people who traffic other human beings will start giving a **** about the government laws and play by the rules when they can simply put somebody to work as slave.
 
Jerry said:
Just like how gun control was supposed to cut down on crime, right?

The most common type of prostitute is the street walker. You can't regulate the street walker because there are simply to many to audit. If one contracts an std disqualifying her from licensure, there is nothing stopping her from selling anyway. There are simply to many street walkers for a 3rd party (cops) to audit.
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Welcome back, soldier.
 
Hatuey said:
You and ChrisL seem to have the same problem. You think people who traffic other human beings will start giving a **** about the government laws and play by the rules when they can simply put somebody to work as slave.
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You seem to have a problem with comprehension. What I'm actually saying is those who choose to do it legally would cut into the profits of people doing it illegal. On top of that, it would provide a legal, safe alternative.
 
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Hatuey said:
Your lack of understanding is getting tedious.

1. Women from EU countries don't need work visas/green cards/work permits of any sort to work in Germany as prostitutes.
2. The overwhelming majority of women trafficked are from EU countries.
3. 25% of the women trafficked were Poland/Czech Republic:
a) both of which are countries that have legalized prostitution
b) both of which have women who don't require visas/work permits to work as prostitutes in Germany.

You're starting to look REALLY ignorant.
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What makes you think that "overwhelming majority" are from the EU countries? Oh, this quote from the first link you have provided, perhaps?

"A criminal investigation in Germany in 1998 found that 87.5 percent of the women trafficked into Germany were from Eastern Europe. Seventeen percent were from Poland, 14 percent from Ukraine, 12 percent from Czech Republic and 8 percent from the Russian Federation"

Well, in 1998 neither Poland nor Czech Republic were EU countries. Both joined in 2004.

Further, if you look at the data, what you see is that up to 80% of prostitutes in Germany are non-German; Bulgaria and Romania (recent EU new members), indeed, providing most. But does it mean that all or majority of them had been forcibly "trafficked"? Especially if comparisons are made with women from Ukraine, Belarus or Russia?

Even the tendentious article in Der Spiegel freely admits that "Statistically speaking, Germany has almost no problem with prostitution and human trafficking. According to the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA), there were 636 reported cases of "human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation" in 2011, or almost a third less than 10 years earlier. Thirteen of the victims were under 14, and another 77 were under 18"
(Human Trafficking Persists Despite Legality of Prostitution in Germany - SPIEGEL ONLINE)

636 is a tiny number for a country so huge, and the trend is downward. Gee, may that decrease in trafficking be, indeed due to a combination of prostitution being fully legal (since 2002, "coincidentally") AND freer labor movement, as EU is expanding?

You always can find a bunch of disturbing anecdotes, and always can claim that a lot of trafficking is going unreported. But a drop by a third over ten years in what is found/reported - surely it correlates somehow with the underlying actual situation?
 
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Sales and protection. In addition, if prostitution were legal it would have to be regulated and taxed. This would give rise to brothels, licensing, health checks and the rest. In a manner of speaking the brothel operators would be pimps.
 
Hatuey said:
You and ChrisL seem to have the same problem. You think people who traffic other human beings will start giving a **** about the government laws and play by the rules when they can simply put somebody to work as slave.
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Legalization most certainly provides more avenues for such people to pursue. Leaving it as an illegal industry certainly isn't helping the problem, quite OBVIOUSLY.
 
radcen said:
If prostitution were legal... would pimps be "necessary"?

Please note that "necessary" is in quotes.
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Yes, due simply to price pressure. Middle class college girls aren't going to line up to get thrusted by dirty, sweaty, overweight truckers for $15 a pop, so that task will fall to the same demographic that all low-paid, low-skill, dangerous labor falls to; our illegal immigrant populace. Except those girls typically aren't too thrilled about it either, meaning that that portion of the industry will be dominated by another facet of illegal immigrant labor - coercion. For coercion, you need pimps.
 
Cyrylek said:
What makes you think that "overwhelming majority" are from the EU countries? Oh, this quote from the first link you have provided, perhaps?

"A criminal investigation in Germany in 1998 found that 87.5 percent of the women trafficked into Germany were from Eastern Europe. Seventeen percent were from Poland, 14 percent from Ukraine, 12 percent from Czech Republic and 8 percent from the Russian Federation"

Well, in 1998 neither Poland nor Czech Republic were EU countries. Both joined in 2004.

Further, if you look at the data, what you see is that up to 80% of prostitutes in Germany are non-German; Bulgaria and Romania (recent EU new members), indeed, providing most. But does it mean that all or majority of them had been forcibly "trafficked"? Especially if comparisons are made with women from Ukraine, Belarus or Russia?

Even the tendentious article in Der Spiegel freely admits that "Statistically speaking, Germany has almost no problem with prostitution and human trafficking. According to the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA), there were 636 reported cases of "human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation" in 2011, or almost a third less than 10 years earlier. Thirteen of the victims were under 14, and another 77 were under 18"
(Human Trafficking Persists Despite Legality of Prostitution in Germany - SPIEGEL ONLINE)

636 is a tiny number for a country so huge, and the trend is downward. Gee, may that decrease in trafficking be, indeed due to a combination of prostitution being fully legal (since 2002, "coincidentally") AND freer labor movement, as EU is expanding?

You always can find a bunch of disturbing anecdotes, and always can claim that a lot of trafficking is going unreported. But a drop by a third over ten years in what is found/reported - surely it correlates somehow with the underlying actual situation?
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Prostitution is de facto legal in the Philippines and Thailand. Shall we talk about human trafficking there?
 
cpwill said:
Prostitution is de facto legal in the Philippines and Thailand. Shall we talk about human trafficking there?
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De facto being the key word. De jure it is very much illegal, in both countries. In the Philippines, involvement in human trafficking carries penalty up to life in prison. And - ?

Legalization brings in the legal framework, transparency, and enforceable regulation. Sweeping things under the carpet and pretending they don't exist gives you what they have in Thailand and the Philippines - or worse.
 
Cyrylek said:
De facto being the key word. De jure it is very much illegal, in both countries
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And is not enforced - in Thailand it is even regulated. It is "illegal" in the sense that any sex outside of the missionary position is technically illegal in several states.

In the Philippines, involvement in human trafficking carries penalty up to life in prison. And - ?
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And yet human trafficking remains part of their open prostitution market. Ditto for Thailand.

Legalization brings in the legal framework, transparency, and enforceable regulation. Sweeping things under the carpet and pretending they don't exist gives you what they have in Thailand and the Philippines - or worse.
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Legalization brings all that in for the portions of the business whose prices support it. Sure, 'escort services' will do well. But the resultant explosion in the industry will likely bring with it a portional decrease and real increase in the amount of human trafficking done for sex-trade purposes, because distinguishing between "legal" and "illegal" prostitution activities will become incredibly difficult for law-enforcement.
 
cpwill said:
But the resultant explosion in the industry will likely bring with it a portional decrease and real increase in the amount of human trafficking done for sex-trade purposes, because distinguishing between "legal" and "illegal" prostitution activities will become incredibly difficult for law-enforcement.
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What are you basing this prediction on? Did the "explosion in the industry" after the Prohibition was repealed cause "real increase" in bootlegging and making of toxic moonshine?

Is it incredibly difficult to distinguish between an operator who has a license and one who doesn't, in any other business? Why prostitution should be different?
 
Cyrylek said:
What are you basing this prediction on? Did the "explosion in the industry" after the Prohibition was repealed cause "real increase" in bootlegging and making of toxic moonshine?

Is it incredibly difficult to distinguish between an operator who has a license and one who doesn't, in any other business? Why prostitution should be different?
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I really don't think they are objecting on a practical basis but rather on a moral one, IMO.
 
ChrisL said:
I really don't think they are objecting on a practical basis but rather on a moral one, IMO.
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Just as a point out of context: what's wrong with objecting on moral grounds?

Isn't it wise to consider the exact moral in question, like a moral against slavory?
 
Jerry said:
Just as a point out of context: what's wrong with objecting on moral grounds?

Isn't it wise to consider the exact moral in question, like a moral against slavory?
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Nothing, but if you object to it on moral grounds, then say so instead of trying to pull stuff out of your butt.
 
Cyrylek said:
What are you basing this prediction on? Did the "explosion in the industry" after the Prohibition was repealed cause "real increase" in bootlegging and making of toxic moonshine?

Is it incredibly difficult to distinguish between an operator who has a license and one who doesn't, in any other business? Why prostitution should be different?
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I can see it now: the Federal Buro of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives and Prostitution.
 
Cyrylek said:
What are you basing this prediction on? Did the "explosion in the industry" after the Prohibition was repealed cause "real increase" in bootlegging and making of toxic moonshine?
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Hm. Well, I would say that a direct comparison between alcohol and prohibition isn't going to get us much, not least because the former is and was far more ubiquitous than prostitution, including during prohibition. That being said, yes, after we lifted prohibition, we did indeed see a rapid expansion of the industry, which included (as I described) a relative decrease and a raw increase in unlicensed manufacture.

Is it incredibly difficult to distinguish between an operator who has a license and one who doesn't, in any other business? Why prostitution should be different?
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Well, you tell me. Would you say that we do or do not currently have a large populace of illegal workers in this country?
 
ChrisL said:
I really don't think they are objecting on a practical basis but rather on a moral one, IMO.
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Perhaps. I don't consider selling sex per se immoral, maybe that's why it is so hard for me to understand how people can prefer status quo, with all the obvious harm it does.
 
cpwill said:
That being said, yes, after we lifted prohibition, we did indeed see a rapid expansion of the industry, which included (as I described) a relative decrease and a raw increase in unlicensed manufacture.
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Could you give me references, regarding the raw increase in unlicensed manufacture? My impression is that unlicensed manufacturing pretty much had collapsed after Prohibition was over.

cpwill said:
Would you say that we do or do not currently have a large populace of illegal workers in this country?
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We have a large populace of workers nobody bothers to monitor or persecute, except for the NICE. Local authorities, meanwhile, are very interested
in keeping legal businesses all properly licensed and monitored. For the obvious reason: that's where taxes are coming from, and overall health of communities.

Not to mention that chasing "illegal immigrants" is a morally dubious activity, while going after perpetrators of forced prostitution is about as righteous as it gets.
 
Cyrylek said:
Perhaps. I don't consider selling sex per se immoral, maybe that's why it is so hard for me to understand how people can prefer status quo, with all the obvious harm it does.
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Considering the fact that their arguments against legalization really don't make much sense, I would say it's based upon moral grounds. Personally, I think it's a pretty sad life and way to make a living, but not a choice for me to make for someone else.
 
ChrisL said:
Considering the fact that their arguments against legalization really don't make much sense, I would say it's based upon moral grounds. Personally, I think it's a pretty sad life and way to make a living, but not a choice for me to make for someone else.
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I am not saying it is not sad. It is pretty ugly, and must be emotionally devastating. I just don't see it as immoral, as long as nobody is coerced or cheated.

Prostitution will probably never disappear, but it may be - and should be - reduced substantially as the economic reasons to do it weaken on one hand, and puritan attitudes toward sex in the "general population" ease on the other.
 
Cyrylek said:
I am not saying it is not sad. It is pretty ugly, and must be emotionally devastating. I just don't see it as immoral, as long as nobody is coerced or cheated.

Prostitution will probably never disappear, but it may be - and should be - reduced substantially as the economic reasons to do it weaken on one hand, and puritan attitudes toward sex in the "general population" ease on the other.
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Well, morality is completely subjective. I just don't understand how anyone could argue that legalization and regulation would cause more problems. I also can't understand why people would want to continue down the same road when it obviously doesn't work. Let's try something new! :)
 
Jerry said:
I can see it now: the Federal Buro of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives and Prostitution.
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Why not call it just the Federal Bureau of Celebration. Shorter, and sounds better for PR.
 
ChrisL said:
Well, morality is completely subjective.
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No, it is not. Otherwise you would not be able to identify "problems" and say that prohibitions "don't work". Problematic from what point of view? Don't work by what standard? You are applying a very objective measure: What does more harm to actual people, against their will? No?
That's morality - the Golden Rule and all that jazz.
 
Cyrylek said:
No, it is not. Otherwise you would not be able to identify "problems" and say that prohibitions "don't work". Problematic from what point of view? Don't work by what standard? You are applying a very objective measure: What does more harm to actual people, against their will? No?
That's morality - the Golden Rule and all that jazz.
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I disagree. To some people, because of their upbringing or religious beliefs, sex outside of marriage IS immoral. Whereas if you don't hold such beliefs, it may not be.
 
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