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How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

How Bad Could it Be?

  • Dems cave in again, allowing the debt to be used as a political tool

    Votes: 3 11.5%

  • Landslide election for one side in 2014

    Votes: 7 26.9%

  • Republican rebellion forces Boehner down

    Votes: 4 15.4%

  • House impeaches Obama

    Votes: 4 15.4%

  • Economic slump

    Votes: 8 30.8%

  • Recession

    Votes: 11 42.3%

  • Depression

    Votes: 15 57.7%

  • Civil War

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • World War

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • End of USA as we know it

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Total voters
    26
Sorry they want me to download an app to read their story so I couldn't, but any media presentation that suggests "default" is merely doing the lefts bidding and is not true to the facts. The facts are simple. Not borrowing more money does not mean default. It means the regime must choose what to spend 3 trillion on when it wants to spend 3.6 trillion. If the regime doesnt pay on its loans (default) then its on the regime and it's beloved dictator and no one else. The money is there to pay 80% or more of the bills. What bills it pays is up to the regime.


Helix said:
here's a fairly exhaustive analysis of the potential default and what might happen :

Absolutely everything you need to know about the debt ceiling

there's no upside to this. we need to agree that we will not default under any circumstances.
Click to expand...
 
CalGun said:
Sorry they want me to download an app to read their story so I couldn't, but any media presentation that suggests "default" is merely doing the lefts bidding and is not true to the facts. The facts are simple. Not borrowing more money does not mean default. It means the regime must choose what to spend 3 trillion on when it wants to spend 3.6 trillion. If the regime doesnt pay on its loans (default) then its on the regime and it's beloved dictator and no one else. The money is there to pay 80% or more of the bills. What bills it pays is up to the regime.
Click to expand...

you don't have to download an app to read the link. however, the "dictator" hyperbole indicates to me that this discussion has exactly zero chance of going anywhere.
 
Helix said:
you don't have to download an app to read the link. however, the "dictator" hyperbole indicates to me that this discussion has exactly zero chance of going anywhere.
Click to expand...

The loser deserves the label. If he were negotiable it wouldn't be prudent, if he followed the rule of law it wouldn't be prudent, and if he didn't live like a king while his people suffered it wouldn't be prudent. It is prudent for this loser in charge. I get you don't like the hyperbole and don't really care. This man deserves no respect and will not get an ounce from me. If we default you should blame him, and if you don't then you are nothing but a political hack. The choice is his and his alone. He has the money to pay our debts every day, and if he chooses not to pay them it's on him.
 
CalGun said:
This crisis is equivalent to all the other non crisis' called out by this failed regime. We take in $3 trillion or more in taxes and that wouldn't stop. That would continue to pay for 80% of the govts obligations. I personally think its fine to operate with 20% less and within our means for a while. It'd do the country good.
Click to expand...

The Treasury has stated that they cannot just pay bond holders. Payment is by computer program. Don't sugar coat this, we will default on our debt if the limit is not raised.
The ramifications will be huge and the blame will all be on the House Republicans. They may be run out of town on a rail.
 
I'm not sure I understand the emphasis of the question. As in is it asking the "worst" stuff that could happen, or the "stuff" that could happen?
 
News flash.....people program computers. You can try and deflect the failure of your beloved regime all you want, bit that doesn't mean the reality of who is to blame will be yours to deliver. Facts matter. Yours are skewed and false. Hence your relevance.


iguanaman said:
The Treasury has stated that they cannot just pay bond holders. Payment is by computer program. Don't sugar coat this, we will default on our debt if the limit is not raised.
The ramifications will be huge and the blame will all be on the House Republicans. They may be run out of town on a rail.
Click to expand...
 
Carjosse said:
Well Canadian news is already calling it a civil war between the far right Republicans and the centre-right Democrats.
Click to expand...



**** Canada, they treat their citizens like cattle
 
Carjosse said:
No they don't trust me I am one.
Click to expand...

they do, I work for a global company and our associates in Montreal and Vancouver hate the healthcare system there and being forced to give up so much of their income for it.
 
CalGun said:
Sorry they want me to download an app to read their story so I couldn't, but any media presentation that suggests "default" is merely doing the lefts bidding and is not true to the facts. The facts are simple. Not borrowing more money does not mean default. It means the regime must choose what to spend 3 trillion on when it wants to spend 3.6 trillion. If the regime doesnt pay on its loans (default) then its on the regime and it's beloved dictator and no one else. The money is there to pay 80% or more of the bills. What bills it pays is up to the regime.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should read the actual opinion of professionals.
 
Helix said:
here's a fairly exhaustive analysis of the potential default and what might happen :

Absolutely everything you need to know about the debt ceiling

there's no upside to this. we need to agree that we will not default under any circumstances.
Click to expand...

Good article. Here's a question: would it be worth Obama and the Dems negotiating with the House if they passed a law eliminating the debt ceiling? I might favor that if the concessions were small but enough to let Republicans "save face." They can celebrate that they repealed the $30B medical device tax, and the rest of the world can be relieved that the artificial barrier to solvency has been destroyed forever.
 
aberrant85 said:
Good article. Here's a question: would it be worth Obama and the Dems negotiating with the House if they passed a law eliminating the debt ceiling? I might favor that if the concessions were small but enough to let Republicans "save face." They can celebrate that they repealed the $30B medical device tax, and the rest of the world can be relieved that the artificial barrier to solvency has been destroyed forever.
Click to expand...

there is simply no way that the Republicans would agree to eliminate the debt ceiling in exchange for the medical device tax. the repeal of that tax is barely going to even get the government open again.

what needs to happen is that we keep a ceiling in place, collect enough taxes, and prioritize spending so that we don't hit the new ceiling. that would going to require a wipeout of an election, though.
 
Helix said:
there is simply no way that the Republicans would agree to eliminate the debt ceiling in exchange for the medical device tax. the repeal of that tax is barely going to even get the government open again.

what needs to happen is that we keep a ceiling in place, collect enough taxes, and prioritize spending so that we don't hit the new ceiling. that would going to require a wipeout of an election, though.
Click to expand...

But spending is based on the budget and CRs; the debt ceiling is just tacked on to pay for those approved expenditures. Why even have it when it can cause such a crisis and be so unimportant?

It's like the government's appendix. Just remove it and it'll never bother you again.
 
aberrant85 said:
But spending is based on the budget and CRs; the debt ceiling is just tacked on to pay for those approved expenditures. Why even have it when it can cause such a crisis and be so unimportant?

It's like the government's appendix. Just remove it and it'll never bother you again.
Click to expand...

because the credit card has to have a limit. the point is that we should be collecting enough revenue that we shouldn't even approach that limit. we've tried the low rates / trickle down nonsense for long enough. it doesn't work.
 
Rocketman said:
they do, I work for a global company and our associates in Montreal and Vancouver hate the healthcare system there and being forced to give up so much of their income for it.
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You still need to provide evidence, I highly doubt they actually say that and even if they do they are in an extreme minority. We have a better healthcare system than the U.S. because of one simple fact people can actually get the care they need and it does not cause thousands to go into bankruptcy because of it. Our system is also cheaper than the U.S. system with the cost of procedures being far lower than the U.S.. I also forgot to mention less bureaucracy.
 
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Helix said:
because the credit card has to have a limit. the point is that we should be collecting enough revenue that we shouldn't even approach that limit. we've tried the low rates / trickle down nonsense for long enough. it doesn't work.
Click to expand...

The debt ceiling isn't a credit card limit for debt though:


Cut to 2:17 if you do not want to watch the whole video.
 
Carjosse said:
You still need to provide evidence, I highly doubt they actually say that and even if they do they are in an extreme minority. We have a better healthcare system than the U.S. because of one simple fact people can actually get the care they need and it does not cause thousands to go into bankruptcy because of it. Our system is also cheaper than the U.S. system with the cost of procedures being far lower than the U.S.. I also forgot to mention less bureaucracy.
Click to expand...

52 -54 cents of every dollar is ****ing ridiculous. I am surprised there hasn't been a civil war there, oh yeah, people there like being treated like cattle.
 
Rocketman said:
52 -54 cents of every dollar is ****ing ridiculous. I am surprised there hasn't been a civil war there, oh yeah, people there like being treated like cattle.
Click to expand...

It's more like 38 but it it still less than American spending on healthcare. We also have functioning government which is not controlled by two parties and mass bureaucracy.
 
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Carjosse said:
It's more like 38 but it it still less than American spending on healthcare. We also have functioning government which is not controlled by two parties and mass bureaucracy.
Click to expand...

No it is 52-54 for someone making in excess of 100k, I have seen the deduction
 
Rocketman said:
No it is 52-54 for someone making in excess of 100k, I have seen the deduction
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I really want to see this calculation where you get 54 from, all the provinces spend vastly different amounts on healthcare and then you have account for the different types of equalization then the different tax levels within each province. If you want to go for per capita spent on healthcare we still blow you out of the water:
44222075health%20expenditure.jpg
 
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aberrant85 said:
Given the trajectory our country is, I ask you: what is the worst possible development that could happen in the event that either the country defaults on its debt or President Obama unilaterally lifts the debt limit?

Keep in mind, the former is warned to create an economic crisis, the latter a constitutional crisis.
Click to expand...

If Obama did that, then there would indeed be a constitutional crisis, but that would turn into a fight of who labeled it, branded it, and marketed the argument best to the American people. I'm not so sure that it would create ripples within the fabric of our democracy because the executive has slowly been going that way for 50-80 years...whether you think it's right or wrong is a different story.

If we "defaulted", that would be a much bigger deal with consequences most people can't actually comprehend because the effects would be felt for a long long time. Our credit rating would go down, I think that's a certainty. Countries would think twice before lending to us. The Chinese would have a better argument to make the Renminbi the premier reserve currency (probably not now, but over time). The dollar would crash instantaneously in the FOREX. The international financial community would literally be shaking their heads and wondering if they should laugh or cry...or maybe both simultaneously. It really would not be good for our country in any way.

That is not to say raising it shouldn't be negotiated over, but there is a point when you have to say screw it and raise the damn thing. I'm pretty sure the Republicans know this...I hope.
 
SBu said:
If Obama did that, then there would indeed be a constitutional crisis, but that would turn into a fight of who labeled it, branded it, and marketed the argument best to the American people. I'm not so sure that it would create ripples within the fabric of our democracy because the executive has slowly been going that way for 50-80 years...whether you think it's right or wrong is a different story.

If we "defaulted", that would be a much bigger deal with consequences most people can't actually comprehend because the effects would be felt for a long long time. Our credit rating would go down, I think that's a certainty. Countries would think twice before lending to us. The Chinese would have a better argument to make the Renminbi the premier reserve currency (probably not now, but over time). The dollar would crash instantaneously in the FOREX. The international financial community would literally be shaking their heads and wondering if they should laugh or cry...or maybe both simultaneously. It really would not be good for our country in any way.

That is not to say raising it shouldn't be negotiated over, but there is a point when you have to say screw it and raise the damn thing. I'm pretty sure the Republicans know this...I hope.
Click to expand...

The scary thing is, when you put it that way, is that it would seem that there are tea party members who would think that other countries not lending us money would be a good thing because then we wouldn't take on so much debt. That would trump the grievous effect on the economy in their eyes.
 
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