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Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

Is our civilisation pathetic?


  • Total voters
    51
But since humans (or people, same thing) = society, you just agreed with me.

Right. But the original argument was that society affects people. I made a distinction. Humans affect people since humans comprise a "society".

I am nit-picking but making a distinction...
 
People = Society, and Society = People.

You cannot separate the two, or say that the influence involved is one-way.

Nah, you got it all wrong.
THE PEOPLE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INFLUENCE ON WHERE SOCIETY GOES!

(this is a slight exhaggeration, people do have a tiny influence, but it is so small its completely irrelevant)

Am I making my point clear now?
 
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You said:




How is that meaningfully different than "sole leader"?

This is what America is about these days. Forget the important things, lets get stuck in details and miss the big picture.

Sole leader = The only leader
Single leader = The top of the political leadership, the leader of all, the rules, the leadership symbol. The same as the sole leader, except there are ofcourse a few other leaders as well, but they are not that important.


So to say it easy, I am against ANY leaders. People shouldn't represent the single leader or any leader in government. The people should. But they are pretty much irrelevant in how society develops.
 
This is what America is about these days. Forget the important things, lets get stuck in details and miss the big picture.

Sole leader = The only leader
Single leader = The top of the political leadership, the leader of all, the rules, the leadership symbol. The same as the sole leader, except there are ofcourse a few other leaders as well, but they are not that important.


So to say it easy, I am against ANY leaders. People shouldn't represent the single leader or any leader in government. The people should. But they are pretty much irrelevant in how society develops.
The president of the US fits neither of those descriptions.
 
It is possible if our society gets rid of the root of greed.

And how do you do that? It is born into us... ever watch two toddlers that want the same toy?
 
Nah, you got it all wrong.
THE PEOPLE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INFLUENCE ON WHERE SOCIETY GOES!

(this is a slight exhaggeration, people do have a tiny influence, but it is so small its completely irrelevant)

Am I making my point clear now?

Your point is clear. It is clearly wrong, but it is clear.
 
Your point is clear. It is clearly wrong, but it is clear.

Well. Feel free to think so. It's everyones loss.


Btw. When did you last have any influence at all over the direction or policies of your country? When did anyone except for the politicians have any say in how your country develops? When did anyone else last have influence over any decisions, directions, politices or development of your country aside from politicians and corporations?

Ooh yes, ofcourse you can select 1 of 2 parties in election, but that changes nothing. When did you last get to vote on anything that actually matters? Nope, you never did. Not one single policy, not anything, nada. You only get to select 1 of the 2 parties. It's the same with all your fellow citizens, in fact, its the same all over the place. (except Switzerland). You never get to vote on anything meaningful, you never get to vote on even the very most important topics of your society. Those things are entirely up to the politicians, and they can do what they want. Afterall, the only thing you can do is to vote for the other party. And they can do the same. The longer it goes, the more corrupt it becomes, and the more corrupt it gets, the less your selection of 1 of the 2 parties matter anything at all, and the more free either of the parties are to abuse you and the citizens of your country and the less you can do about it.

That's just how democracy works. If you don't see that, its because you live in your little box, where politicians have tricked you into taking side and finding it very important to discuss which of thw two parties is best. You discuss petty party stuff until your face goes red or blue. Even if they burnt the constitituon there is nothing you can do, and you probably wouldnt even try.

That's why its so good that people feel satisfied as long as other peoples definition of happiness in your life is fullfilled. Its a never ending drug to accomplish it ;)
 
Humans are the root of greed.

I have higher views of people. I think there is a great force of corruption in our society, and it is not at all the majority of people.

Ever heard of something rotting at the core?
 
And how do you do that? It is born into us... ever watch two toddlers that want the same toy?

You establish a society where everyone have what they need and want. You give people the knowledge to see things clearly and to expand their knowledge and understanding exponentially from a very young age to the end of their days.

Math doesn't do that. We need a society of values, honor, honesty, integrity, traditions. If we do not have them math is nothing but a tool for destruction and randomness.
We had societies in the past, rooted in such values, and those did not come by themself, people learned those values from a very young age, and they were reinforced on them for much of their life.

I mean, our educational system is quite a failure in that regard. Most people graduate without any of those values, or maximum 1 or 2, and still those values are not very strong in them.

If you know what I mean...





Ps. What is our society rooted in?
 
You establish a society where everyone have what they need and want. You give people the knowledge to see things clearly and to expand their knowledge and understanding exponentially from a very young age to the end of their days.

Math doesn't do that. We need a society of values, honor, honesty, integrity, traditions. If we do not have them math is nothing but a tool for destruction and randomness.
We had societies in the past, rooted in such values, and those did not come by themself, people learned those values from a very young age, and they were reinforced on them for much of their life.

I mean, our educational system is quite a failure in that regard. Most people graduate without any of those values, or maximum 1 or 2, and still those values are not very strong in them.

If you know what I mean...





Ps. What is our society rooted in?

When we have unlimited resources were everyone can have a 50K diamond, a super yacht, a Ferrari and a billion dollar mansion you might get somewhere.

Until then you are living in a fantasy world buddy...
 
I have higher views of people. I think there is a great force of corruption in our society, and it is not at all the majority of people.

Ever heard of something rotting at the core?
There will always be humans who let greed, and other emotions/desires, rule their lives.
 
When we have unlimited resources were everyone can have a 50K diamond, a super yacht, a Ferrari and a billion dollar mansion you might get somewhere.

Until then you are living in a fantasy world buddy...

Maybe those things are part of te problem. There is absolutely no actual value in a diamond except for cutting in industrial use.

I find it a huge problem in our society that someone has way too much whole others have nothing. I mean, most super rich people have money they will never ever use, and only a tiny bit of that could provide much happiness to a lot of desperate people. I mean, it wouldn't take much money to give people in overpopulated areas sex education and free condoms for example. I cannot say for sure, but I have a feeling that many of those pregnancies are not wanted. What I do know for sure it that they create a whole lot of problems.

As I see it, the capitalist model is completely broken and by definition dysfynctional and inherently unfair. Capitalism as oppose to free market and free trade brings only misery, and allows many people to get rich by making others poor. Even the US, a relatively rich country, is a perfect example of that.

For Europe it was highly profitable with colonialism, slavery, stealing of natural resources, killing and general stealing in Africa. Looking at it from the other side completely changes the perspective. How would Africa have been today if we had not crushed them? Personally I know far too little about middle age African society, but as far as I know it was far more developed than African society is today.
 
Maybe those things are part of te problem. There is absolutely no actual value in a diamond except for cutting in industrial use.

I find it a huge problem in our society that someone has way too much whole others have nothing. I mean, most super rich people have money they will never ever use, and only a tiny bit of that could provide much happiness to a lot of desperate people. I mean, it wouldn't take much money to give people in overpopulated areas sex education and free condoms for example. I cannot say for sure, but I have a feeling that many of those pregnancies are not wanted. What I do know for sure it that they create a whole lot of problems.

As I see it, the capitalist model is completely broken and by definition dysfynctional and inherently unfair. Capitalism as oppose to free market and free trade brings only misery, and allows many people to get rich by making others poor. Even the US, a relatively rich country, is a perfect example of that.

For Europe it was highly profitable with colonialism, slavery, stealing of natural resources, killing and general stealing in Africa. Looking at it from the other side completely changes the perspective. How would Africa have been today if we had not crushed them? Personally I know far too little about middle age African society, but as far as I know it was far more developed than African society is today.

You can say that those things are a part of the problem all you like... the problem is that people will want them. You truly just don't seem to get it.

As long as some people have things that others want but can't have you will have a problem.
As long as some people are in charge of others laying down the law that others don't like you will have a problem.

I can go on and on but I don't think that you will ever understand the innate failures of human behaviour.
 
Maybe, but it does not have to be the majority.

But it is the majority... why do you think that people want better paying jobs, more beneifts, etc. It is greed.

Like I said, watch two toddlers try to play with one toy. Now imagine the toy is a Leer Jet.
 
Maybe, but it does not have to be the majority.
A minority is enough, because the vast majority of humans tend to not give a ****.


Edit: However, I think you're too narrowly defining greed - Any form of "I want that" is greed. In a way, anyway.
 
You can say that those things are a part of the problem all you like... the problem is that people will want them. You truly just don't seem to get it.

As long as some people have things that others want but can't have you will have a problem.
As long as some people are in charge of others laying down the law that others don't like you will have a problem.

I can go on and on but I don't think that you will ever understand the innate failures of human behaviour.

Maybe not. But maybe I think bad behaviour is possible to get rid of through targetted and proper education. Without education we would all be savages.

But it is the majority... why do you think that people want better paying jobs, more beneifts, etc. It is greed.

Like I said, watch two toddlers try to play with one toy. Now imagine the toy is a Leer Jet.

But toddlers are savages, because they did not learn the philosophies yet.

And... You have no hope that the world can turn into a mature and good society where everyone can be happy?

Do you believe we can have peace on this planet and stop waging war against each others?
 
A minority is enough, because the vast majority of humans tend to not give a ****.


Edit: However, I think you're too narrowly defining greed - Any form of "I want that" is greed. In a way, anyway.


I think most people just want to live a good life and have security. If they have that, then I think greed is no longer a topic.

But how many people have a good life and security today? Almost none, just the very rich. They know that they can survive and be comfortable the rest of their life without having to do anything. Yet they do something.

I think lowering that bar is possible, that most people in the west would be able to think the same, that they can survive and be compfortable the rest of their life without having to do anything. But then we would have to change the economic model to distribute work better, to avoid a group of people stealing the value of everyones labour, thus leaving the labourers having to labour more and not able to live comfortable, even though our society have plenty.

You see, we do produce enough for everyone to be secure and comfortable in our society, we just distribute it very poorly, so that no one is secure and compfortable unless they put in a lot of work. We organise our society in a very poor way. I mean, if everyone had the same as an example and everyone contributed equally, we could have everything we have to day with half the labour. If we focused more on what is important, and focused less on things we do not need, then I think everyone could get away with working a 10 hour week or less.

The greed we are seeing in general as a society is not the greed of our society, but the greed of the capitalist model.
 
I think most people just want to live a good life and have security. If they have that, then I think greed is no longer a topic.

But how many people have a good life and security today? Almost none, just the very rich. They know that they can survive and be comfortable the rest of their life without having to do anything. Yet they do something.

I think lowering that bar is possible, that most people in the west would be able to think the same, that they can survive and be compfortable the rest of their life without having to do anything. But then we would have to change the economic model to distribute work better, to avoid a group of people stealing the value of everyones labour, thus leaving the labourers having to labour more and not able to live comfortable, even though our society have plenty.

You see, we do produce enough for everyone to be secure and comfortable in our society, we just distribute it very poorly, so that no one is secure and compfortable unless they put in a lot of work. We organise our society in a very poor way. I mean, if everyone had the same as an example and everyone contributed equally, we could have everything we have to day with half the labour. If we focused more on what is important, and focused less on things we do not need, then I think everyone could get away with working a 10 hour week or less.

The greed we are seeing in general as a society is not the greed of our society, but the greed of the capitalist model.

How does the philosophy of from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs sound to you?
 
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