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Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

Is our civilisation pathetic?

  • Total voters
    51
Maximus Zeebra said:
Germany has a fantastic healthcare system in my opinion. And one of the most innovative and efficient ones as well.


I am for open healthcare. And I am happy the US is taking steps in the right direction on this.
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What does open healthcare mean?

Secondly, the US is not going for universal healthcare with obamacare. All obamacare does is make people who don't want to have private insurance get private insurance and up the premiums on those who already have it. It does one good thing and that is allowing people with pre-existing conditions get healthcare. But that one good thing is drowned by all the bad thing it brings. What good is having insurance if you're going to go broke PAYING it. Before you went broke if you had to go to the hospital and didn't have healthcare, now you're going broke before you even get to the hospital.

It's not universal healthcare. It's mandatory insurance. And that means that private insurance corporations will make a killing.
 
Rainman05 said:
What does open healthcare mean?
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That it's open to everyone.


Rainman05 said:
Secondly, the US is not going for universal healthcare with obamacare. All obamacare does is make people who don't want to have private insurance get private insurance and up the premiums on those who already have it. It does one good thing and that is allowing people with pre-existing conditions get healthcare. But that one good thing is drowned by all the bad thing it brings. What good is having insurance if you're going to go broke PAYING it. Before you went broke if you had to go to the hospital and didn't have healthcare, now you're going broke before you even get to the hospital.

It's not universal healthcare. It's mandatory insurance. And that means that private insurance corporations will make a killing.
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I agree, but it is a good first step. The US just need to end the closed door policy and the huge bills to private individuals to attend to their health.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
That it's open to everyone.


I agree, but it is a good first step. The US just need to end the closed door policy and the huge bills to private individuals to attend to their health.
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Open, do you mean universal healthcare? You need to be more specific because you are using terms that are not interchangeable.

And how is it a good first step?
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
I agree, but it is a good first step. The US just need to end the closed door policy and the huge bills to private individuals to attend to their health.
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If we give people free scripts, they'll just end up posting on the internet and annoying everyone with their insanity.
 
ChrisL said:
It is, but it's unrealistic to think everyone or even most people would. In a case of anarchy too, those who do survive are the ones who care the least usually. They are the ones willing to go to extremes to get what they want obviously. Especially those who are desperate.
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The problem with anarchy is not so much that people will harm each other, but that it offers up a vacuum that comes about from the need of many people to be lead by others and or the desire to lead. People are hierarchical in nature and anarchy goes against this in the most blatant of ways. While I'm not sure I would suspect that these issues relating to leadership only arose at a certain threshold in our history and that government is just the result of it.

Of course, no system is really stable in the conditions it lays out and all systems go towards a general path towards their destruction. Government just seems to be a necessary step towards it.

As for people harming each other though, to the most part people would work together and take part in activities that better their condition. While some people will harm others the extent of that is largely up to the individual people like it is with any other system.
 
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Maximus Zeebra said:
Wow, wohooo.. We have come so far..
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Yes, we have.

Daily life is safer; fewer people are killed or harmed by wars. Slavery, which was common throughout most of world history, has been all but completely eradicated. The percentage of deaths in warfare in pre-state societies is estimated to be very high (around 20%), whereas 20th century world estimates are well below 5%. The abandonment of autocracies, the rise of the rule of law, organized police, and increases in affluence are all likely contributors to a safer world.

And a lot of that progress didn't happen because of wars, but in spite of them. We didn't develop the goal of an accountable government because one group of soldiers killed another group, it was because of the ideas of Enlightenment philosophers.


I don't agree with that assessment. I guess I have a higher view of and hope for humanity than you do.
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I'm not the one proclaiming that modern civilization is "pathetic." It looks to me like you're the pessimist here.

It's also very clear that, for example, deception is not going away. Anyone who has kids knows that it doesn't take long for the kid to attempt lying to the parents -- or that parents frequently feel compelled to lie to their children. Deception is a common tactic, and one that works fairly well, observed all throughout the animal kingdom. There's no way you can stop people from lying, unless you develop a completely oppressive and draconian society.

I.e. if you're going to allow people to be free, you have to accept that people are going to do things you don't like.


I think that is an essential next step for humanity. To mature and outgrow all of those pity problems.
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Again, we are actually improving, because of societal steps.

You also have to realize that while humans do respond to social conditions, we are also hard-wired in many respects. E.g. you cannot talk people out of dividing into "us and them." While the criteria is flexible, the desire to divide social groups into "in-group" and "out-group" is almost certainly a hard-wired human response.


We can easily eradicate those things if we want.
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Uh huh. I notice you're long on criticism, short on actual policies. Care to explain how you convince everyone to hug and distribute puppies all day long?



It is a fantasy yes, because the political class who own all of you, even your ideas, they seem to not want that.
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The political class doesn't "own" us. I don't believe that's the case even for a lot of people I disagree with politically.

Nor do you have any sort of special privileged access to True Freedom, that no one else has. You just have a rhetorical flourish that you can invoke when you are unable to prove your assertions.


Perhaps I will take you up on that.
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Here's a transcript of a lecture he did, based on his work. It's a much faster read than the book.

A History of Violence Edge Master Class 2011 | Edge.org
 
Rainman05 said:
Open, do you mean universal healthcare? You need to be more specific because you are using terms that are not interchangeable.

And how is it a good first step?
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I don't know. Like we have it in Europe, so yes, I suppose that is called universal healthcare.
 
ecofarm said:
If we give people free scripts, they'll just end up posting on the internet and annoying everyone with their insanity.
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Yeah, exactly, that is what you are doing. I haven't seen anything interesting coming from you here.

So, there is an unsubcribe button for those that are so far inside he box that they will never come out.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Yeah, exactly, that is what you are doing. I haven't seen anything interesting coming from you here.

So, there is an unsubcribe button for those that are so far inside he box that they will never come out.
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It's gonna take you weeks to figure out that anarchy is stupid. I'm so waiting for that morsel of wisdom.

You're not the boss of me. I do what I want.
 
Visbek said:
I'm not the one proclaiming that modern civilization is "pathetic." It looks to me like you're the pessimist here.
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Nah, I am the one who believes in a better world. I have high hopes and view on humankind.

You think our current pathetic civilisation is great or you have no hope in human kind to do any better than we are. Which is tragic and clearly an example of someone who have no faith in humanity.

I have faith in humanity, thats why I think we can do a lot better than we are.

Visbek said:
It's also very clear that, for example, deception is not going away. Anyone who has kids knows that it doesn't take long for the kid to attempt lying to the parents -- or that parents frequently feel compelled to lie to their children.
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That is a result of their environment, not their human nature. It doesn't have to be that way. But usually kids are afraid of parents if they do something wrong, and are compelled to use a construction of our civilisation to get out of that, lying.

Visbek said:
Deception is a common tactic, and one that works fairly well, observed all throughout the animal kingdom. There's no way you can stop people from lying, unless you develop a completely oppressive and draconian society.
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Are you saying we are are stupid as monkeys? That we cannot do better? Thats a dark view on humanity that I do not share.

Visbek said:
I.e. if you're going to allow people to be free, you have to accept that people are going to do things you don't like.
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Thats not up to me, its up to all of us. Personally, I want my kids to grow up in a free world where they can become anything that they want.

I also want them to live in an open society where parents don't have to lie to them or make them afraid. Where they are free to explore things their own way with parental guidance.


Visbek said:
Again, we are actually improving, because of societal steps.

You also have to realize that while humans do respond to social conditions, we are also hard-wired in many respects. E.g. you cannot talk people out of dividing into "us and them." While the criteria is flexible, the desire to divide social groups into "in-group" and "out-group" is almost certainly a hard-wired human response.
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We are all us. We live on the same planet, there is no us and them. Its a social construct, not a human trait. If everyone grew up in an open world where they have everything they need we would have far more social harmony. It is a place where everyone would automatically be the friend of everyone else, because it makes no sense not to be.

I believe a harmonious society is possible and very realistic. But then again I have high faith in humans and believe they are inherently good, but that our social construct or civilisation turns many of them bad.


Visbek said:
Uh huh. I notice you're long on criticism, short on actual policies. Care to explain how you convince everyone to hug and distribute puppies all day long?
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I wasnt trying to come up with practical examples. Are you asking for some?



Visbek said:
The political class doesn't "own" us. I don't believe that's the case even for a lot of people I disagree with politically.
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They own the system. You have no influence on that systems, most people have no influence on that system and elections certainly have no influence on that system. You are just born into it and have to live in that system.

Visbek said:
Nor do you have any sort of special privileged access to True Freedom, that no one else has. You just have a rhetorical flourish that you can invoke when you are unable to prove your assertions.
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Did I say I was free? I live in the same system as you, and I am equally trapped by it. I am probably more open minded than you though, which makes me more free to understanding true freedom.


Visbek said:
Here's a transcript of a lecture he did, based on his work. It's a much faster read than the book.

A History of Violence Edge Master Class 2011 | Edge.org
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I am going jogging now, 8km's. I will see after that :)

Jogging is not only benefitial to me, but also to our society. They never teach such things in school. In particularily in the US. I am always very sorry when I hear you have such crazy obesity levels over there. I think our obesity levels over here are crazy, at about half of yours. So, I cook, eat healthy, do sports etc. All the things that they never put any real weight on in school, even though it is of the highest importance. School prepares you to work in the system, doesn't it?
 
shrubnose said:
Good.

Stick around here and you will get a lot of that, whether you like it or not.
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Given that he started off with a heaping helping of it, I assumed he really did love it.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Nah, I am the one who believes in a better world. I have high hopes and view on humankind.
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And yet, you openly insult people who don't agree with you. h'm ;)


You think our current pathetic civilisation is great or you have no hope in human kind to do any better than we are. Which is tragic and clearly an example of someone who have no faith in humanity.
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No, what I believe is that the world has actually improved, measurably and significantly so. There is room for more improvement. However, certain things (like deception) will never go away.


That is a result of their environment, not their human nature. It doesn't have to be that way. But usually kids are afraid of parents if they do something wrong, and are compelled to use a construction of our civilisation to get out of that, lying.
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So, that's a "no" on your having kids then. ;)

Parents constantly tell their kids not to lie. Success rate at eliminating lying? 0%. The will and ability to deceive is just a part of human nature, and you will not get people to behave the way you want them to behave if you don't understand human nature.


Are you saying we are are stupid as monkeys? That we cannot do better? Thats a dark view on humanity that I do not share.
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1) Monkeys are quite intelligent.
2) I'm saying that you cannot stop humans from lying. Nor have you suggested any plan to do so.


Thats not up to me, its up to all of us. Personally, I want my kids to grow up in a free world where they can become anything that they want.
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So they can be free, but only if they restrict their behavior per your personal preferences? That doesn't sound like "freedom" to me.


We are all us. We live on the same planet, there is no us and them.
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You're missing the point. I am not saying that there are definitive groups, in fact I stated that the criteria for group membership is flexible. I'm pointing out how human beings have an innate propensity to divide themselves up to "us and them." E.g. in the Robbers Cave experiment, a group of kids with highly similar backgrounds were divided into two groups. The counselors were able to quickly guide the kids into forming group identities, and pit the two groups against one another; they were equally successful at unifying the two groups. I.e. you can change the content of the groups, but you cannot wipe out the idea of "group membership" altogether.

This is almost certainly an evolutionary adaptation and a requirement for living in complex social groups. Chimpanzees, for example, also divide themselves up into troops, and within a troop they have complex subgroups -- e.g. they recognize families, they make alliances, they have a hierarchy based on competition, and so forth.


If everyone grew up in an open world where they have everything they need we would have far more social harmony. It is a place where everyone would automatically be the friend of everyone else, because it makes no sense not to be.
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And how does this happen again? Especially since in such a world, a handful of brutes can easily take control of those who are busy hugging puppies.

You might want to add The Selfish Gene to your reading list, as Dawkins discusses the idea of evolutionary survival strategies, and how it's rare that one tactic will work universally.


I wasnt trying to come up with practical examples. Are you asking for some?
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Yep.

There are about 6 billion people on the planet, who routinely divide themselves into groups and have genuine conflicts of interests. If you're going to say that it is easy to build a better world, then let's hear how it should be done.





They own the system. You have no influence on that systems....
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Of course I do. Granted, my power is shared with around 300 million of my fellow citizens. But I can vote, I can advocate, I can discuss, I can protest, I can bring lawsuits, I can organize. If I am sufficiently motivated, I can join the political class.


Did I say I was free? I live in the same system as you, and I am equally trapped by it. I am probably more open minded than you though, which makes me more free to understanding true freedom.
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The problem is that you know nothing of my background, nothing about the political ideas I've been exposed to, and your only criteria is whether or not someone agrees with you.

And yes, if you're going to say "you are a sheep," that implies that you are not -- and yet, there is (per your own stipulation) nothing different between you and I. So how did you become so enlightened?


Jogging is not only benefitial to me, but also to our society. They never teach such things in school.
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The US is getting better about teaching kids the benefits of exercise and eating healthy, and there is a lot of discussion of it in the media. It's having a small effect.

No one really knows what causes obesity, thus it is not a simple process to figure out why it's happening, or how to stop it.
 
ecofarm said:
Yes, they do.
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Well, if you count the amateurish gymnastics in school, then yea. But generally there is a huge lack of funds, competence, equipment and grounds in schools in general, leading to a very poor sport education for most people.
That in general is an area where we definetely are pathetic. And with all the health problems, overweight and such of today it should be an area of high priority. Both sports science and practice, and nutritional science and food practice.

It's a shame that so many people leave school without the ability to cook food!

We certainly do not teach these important subject with the same rigour and professionality as the "prepare for work" subjects.


Schooling and education in general need huge improvements. Take computer science for example, its already a mature establishment in our society, but schools are lagging far behind when it comes to providing such education at an elementary level. There is a huge gap in competence and equipment compared to what we need.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Well, if you count the amateurish gymnastics in school, then yea. But generally there is a huge lack of funds, competence, equipment and grounds in schools in general, leading to a very poor sport education for most people.
That in general is an area where we definetely are pathetic. And with all the health problems, overweight and such of today it should be an area of high priority. Both sports science and practice, and nutritional science and food practice.
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A school is not ones parents and jogging doesn't cost anything. If a kid does not have physical activity as part of their day, and a decent diet, then the parents are ****bags and nothing will change that.

Stop relying on the government to do everything. Take some personal responsibility.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
No you don't. You do what the system allows you.
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Oh, please. I've done things most only dream of. The system never gave me anything, I had to work for my accomplishments. Perhaps everything you've ever had was handed to you by the government, but most people DO something.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Its would be pretty silly not to want a better society.
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True. It's also pretty silly to assume that it's possible for everyone on earth to be happy and compliant with your wishes at all times.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Well, if you count the amateurish gymnastics in school, then yea. But generally there is a huge lack of funds, competence, equipment and grounds in schools in general, leading to a very poor sport education for most people.
That in general is an area where we definetely are pathetic. And with all the health problems, overweight and such of today it should be an area of high priority. Both sports science and practice, and nutritional science and food practice.

It's a shame that so many people leave school without the ability to cook food!

We certainly do not teach these important subject with the same rigour and professionality as the "prepare for work" subjects.


Schooling and education in general need huge improvements. Take computer science for example, its already a mature establishment in our society, but schools are lagging far behind when it comes to providing such education at an elementary level. There is a huge gap in competence and equipment compared to what we need.
Click to expand...

Even as I think that the schools can do more; they simply cannot do absolutely everything...There are just so many hours in a day..
Hillary Clinton ....It takes a community to rear a child....
Max, things are not as bad as you make them to be.....
And, its a delicate operation to change /improve things...I am good at pointing this out (easy part), but lousy at getting people to change....
Where do you stand ?
 
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