• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

Is our civilisation pathetic?

  • Total voters
    51
Maximus Zeebra said:
It terrible, especially when you consider that the courts are no longer independent, but political. usually an arm of the ruling party.
Click to expand...


Agreed. A lot of times the courts will determine policy based upon their own ideological interpretation.

I never said the person has to be poor, but they have to live under poor conditions while they are a politician.
Click to expand...

If you think about it, the salary for the president of the US is only like 200,000 dollars a year I believe. It might be a little less or a little more, not sure, but the point is they are far from making what your average movie star makes, so not considered a rich salary. However, they are practically guaranteed to be rich to begin with anyhow. They are the only ones who can afford to run. :lol: Another problem is that they need the backing of their political party in order to win an election because they are the ones who fund all of the publicity and commercials, etc. It's so complicated to find a realistic solution.



Corruption definetely existed back then. It might even be the reason that Socrates was killed. Because he spoke out against it.

Both of them were deeply unhappy about their government it seems.
Click to expand...

Exactly! There has never and probably never will be a "perfect" form of government that everyone is happy with.


I don't support a majority tyrrany. I support a system where an overwhelming majority holds a view. I also support what the good man Ron Paul supports, in regards to the state interfaring with peoples lifestyles. They shouldn't.
Click to expand...

I agree with that, but we do need to have laws to protect the vulnerable, as they often times cannot always depend upon anyone else, such as children.

If homosexuals wants to be homosexuals, they can, but in their own private sphere.

Its not something that the state should promote or demote. Marriage and such should be up to the states to decide on. In that way, people who dont want to have gay marriage can move to a state with no gay marriage. Then we are all free to live in a place that suit us. Not in regards to marriage only, but a whole range of things.
Click to expand...

I agree with that, but again you'll have people who are unhappy with one thing or another, but the federal government cannot seem to mind it's own business or even do what it's supposed to do, such as secure borders. :lol:

Actually, that is a strong conviction that I do have. That the world should be under a mininal regime of global regulation and that ALL policies, laws and democracy should be LOCAL and regionally (regionally as in states in the US, and regions in Europe, like Bavaria in Germany).

That way, all regions and states can have completely different laws, and people can move to those regions and laws, fit best with their own views, rather than to have laws, rules and norms pushed down their throat.
Click to expand...

I agree with this too.

I just mentioned is as an example, because you have the most cementing constitution and the most obvious politicians overtramping of it. But yes, unfortunately, its like that everywhere.
Click to expand...

Again, I agree with this. Our federal government is way to big and overbearing.

I don't support any of todays governmental models. But Switzerland would be the one that would be closest to my view.

I believe the world should seriously look into governance and organise that again. The current model does not work.
Click to expand...

Some people would disagree and say it works just fine though. :) Some people would even like MORE government involvement. People see things according to their own wants and/or needs.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Freedom is anarchy. Lack of freedom is tyrrany.

its not about selecting one or another of all the models. There are many good things about each model that we can use. But all in all, its better to move towards a controlled and well functional anarchy model where people decide about their own lives, than towards a tyrranical model where people are controlled by a system. Be it with a dictator or without.
Click to expand...

In my opinion anarchy is more of the goal of humanity, but not something that will probably ever happen. At the moment we seem to be going in the exact opposite direction and not paying any mind on exactly why government is needed in the first place. Then again, I doubt many people really understand it either.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
To close Washington and create the government made out in the US constitution.
If someone is grossly neglecting their job, the first thing to think it: they should get fired.

If the whole government model is illegal, then it needs to be taken down and made legal.
Click to expand...

Anytime I speak of this, one politician in particular comes to mind, Charlie Rangel. He was "censured" by Congress. :roll: But yet, there will be people who will say this is no biggie because they happen to share his ideological viewpoints.

Congressman Charlie Rangel: "Wrong to Abuse the Tax System" - ABC News
 
Henrin said:
Corruption is just a side effect of the problem. The problem can't be resolved since people are always going to be interested in oppressing and harming others. The problem with democracy is that it feeds into the weaknesses of people and does little to empower their strengths. The problem with democracy is rooted in people finding that they can use government towards their own ends usually at the expense of others. Just look at the ACA for example, the largest most talked about parts of the law are either involuntary servitude, forced commerce or using government to provide people individual services at others expense. If people want to actually get to a point where democracy works they have to stop pushing for government to fix their problems and focus more on rights and liberties. As it stands, we seem to be a part in a history where people don't want to be spied on and yet want government to keep them save at all times, don't want to be overly burden in taxes and yet want the government to provide them the basics in life, want liberty, but don't want it for their neighbor if they benefit from them losing it. Most people live in a constant state of contradiction and self denial.
Click to expand...

Yes, but one could also say corruption is the cause of that. Specifically the example you mention about freedom given away in the name of security. Its the government that pushed that agenda, not the people. They exploited the unfortunate 911 events to implement policies that the people never asked for. And now keeps doing that with spying and surveillance.

'But yes, you are right, there are also many contradictions.

What is ACA?
 
Kobie said:
It's basically misanthrophy, mixed with a healthy does of xenophobia, arrogance and quite frankly just being a plain old dick.
Click to expand...

Are you analysing yourself there and your very constructive input into this?
 
Term limits would be helpful, just like the presidency, all should be limited. There are instances where politicians admit to actually becoming more and more corrupt the longer they remain in office.
 
shrubnose said:
The Affordable Care Act is settled law per a U.S. Supreme Court decision.

When will the G-nO-P ever wake up and accept reality?
Click to expand...

Obamacare is not universal healthcare. I know, I have universal healthcare and everywhere I go in the EU i have universal healthcare.

Universal healthcare is when you pay a given % of your income to the state and in return, you get wheatever medical services you need, or from a wide range of medical needs.

For instance, my GP (family doctor) can send me to the state hospital to get bloodwork if I want to, no extra cost. I can however, because there are private hospitals, go to a private hospital and pay for blood analysis if I want to without a recommendation from my gp.

But the point is. Any medical practice that my family doctor deems fit, i can get it for free from any state hospital. When I was 14, I had developed ingrown nail thanks to some cretin who faulted me heavily when playing football. One visit to the family doctor later, I was already given a recommendation to go to the hospital for an operation. No cost for me or my family. I could have gone to a a private clinic and pay for it, but why bother.

Today, I have no family doctor now because I finished college earlier this year but during college, i had access to the campus doctor which fulfilled the same roles(my family doctor was in another city anyway). I will have to find a general practitioner sooner or later and enroll myself to him in his practice.
I also have a job now but I don't need to get insurance. All I need is to get a general doctor and have him consult me. Lets say I have an infection or smth that needs an operation, he looks at me... he writes me a note to go to the hospital and get the operation done. If I want, I can pay and go to a private hospital... but why bother.

But there are things that I am allowed to do and pay for them if I want. For instance, I can have access to dental care in a public hospital but all my life I went to a private practice to the same doctor. I don't go there because the state tells me to, I do it because I like how she works and I trust her. I can switch dentists anytime I want, no problem. If I had a family doctor I could go to him, have him give me a note and go to the public hospital for dental care.


The point is. Obamacare is not universal healthcare. It's universal insurance for people, whether they want it or not. For instance, I don't want health insurance. Why would I? I have universal healthcare. But if my govt would say: ok, everyone needs to have PRIVATE health insurance, whether you're working or not, or you'll be fined... I'd be pissed. And so would a lot of other people.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
You sense yourself then, because you do not know me, and have not read what I have written earlier, specifically in regards to such ridiculous accusations.
Its far the opposite actually. For those who do not care about the fate of society, they have utter contempt and hatred for others.

I care, and your accusation is completely out of line.
Click to expand...


Yeah, whatever.
 
Rainman05 said:
Obamacare is not universal healthcare. I know, I have universal healthcare and everywhere I go in the EU i have universal healthcare.

Universal healthcare is when you pay a given % of your income to the state and in return, you get wheatever medical services you need, or from a wide range of medical needs.

For instance, my GP (family doctor) can send me to the state hospital to get bloodwork if I want to, no extra cost. I can however, because there are private hospitals, go to a private hospital and pay for blood analysis if I want to without a recommendation from my gp.

But the point is. Any medical practice that my family doctor deems fit, i can get it for free from any state hospital. When I was 14, I had developed ingrown nail thanks to some cretin who faulted me heavily when playing football. One visit to the family doctor later, I was already given a recommendation to go to the hospital for an operation. No cost for me or my family. I could have gone to a a private clinic and pay for it, but why bother.

Today, I have no family doctor now because I finished college earlier this year but during college, i had access to the campus doctor which fulfilled the same roles(my family doctor was in another city anyway). I will have to find a general practitioner sooner or later and enroll myself to him in his practice.
I also have a job now but I don't need to get insurance. All I need is to get a general doctor and have him consult me. Lets say I have an infection or smth that needs an operation, he looks at me... he writes me a note to go to the hospital and get the operation done. If I want, I can pay and go to a private hospital... but why bother.

But there are things that I am allowed to do and pay for them if I want. For instance, I can have access to dental care in a public hospital but all my life I went to a private practice to the same doctor. I don't go there because the state tells me to, I do it because I like how she works and I trust her. I can switch dentists anytime I want, no problem. If I had a family doctor I could go to him, have him give me a note and go to the public hospital for dental care.


The point is. Obamacare is not universal healthcare. It's universal insurance for people, whether they want it or not. For instance, I don't want health insurance. Why would I? I have universal healthcare. But if my govt would say: ok, everyone needs to have PRIVATE health insurance, whether you're working or not, or you'll be fined... I'd be pissed. And so would a lot of other people.
Click to expand...

What sucks is that our government is really bad at doing anything in an economically feasible fashion. They just suck at it. I wouldn't want to imagine the red tape and inefficiency involved if our government provided healthcare.
 
Henrin said:
In my opinion anarchy is more of the goal of humanity, but not something that will probably ever happen. At the moment we seem to be going in the exact opposite direction and not paying any mind on exactly why government is needed in the first place. Then again, I doubt many people really understand it either.
Click to expand...

The whole system is anti freedom. Most people have no choice of the life they live. Its like "you are free, but you have to do this, and this, and this".

I started thinking about anarchy some time ago and the concept of having no government at all. The consequences are overwhelming, the possibilities are endless and mechanisms to make it possibly extremely complicated.

So I decided I would not think to much about it at the moment, it will take days and weeks to even start processing it properly.
 
ChrisL said:
What sucks is that our government is really bad at doing anything in an economically feasible fashion. They just suck at it. I wouldn't want to imagine the red tape and inefficiency involved if our government provided healthcare.
Click to expand...

I agree with that. But I think it is a good human trait to care for the health of others.

Water, food, shelter, health, education (expansional) and security are all fundamental issues of human existance.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
I agree with that. But I think it is a good human trait to care for the health of others.

Water, food, shelter, health, education (expansional) and security are all fundamental issues of human existance.
Click to expand...

It is, but it's unrealistic to think everyone or even most people would. In a case of anarchy too, those who do survive are the ones who care the least usually. They are the ones willing to go to extremes to get what they want obviously. Especially those who are desperate.
 
Rainman05 said:
Obamacare is not universal healthcare. I know, I have universal healthcare and everywhere I go in the EU i have universal healthcare.

Universal healthcare is when you pay a given % of your income to the state and in return, you get wheatever medical services you need, or from a wide range of medical needs.

For instance, my GP (family doctor) can send me to the state hospital to get bloodwork if I want to, no extra cost. I can however, because there are private hospitals, go to a private hospital and pay for blood analysis if I want to without a recommendation from my gp.

But the point is. Any medical practice that my family doctor deems fit, i can get it for free from any state hospital. When I was 14, I had developed ingrown nail thanks to some cretin who faulted me heavily when playing football. One visit to the family doctor later, I was already given a recommendation to go to the hospital for an operation. No cost for me or my family. I could have gone to a a private clinic and pay for it, but why bother.

Today, I have no family doctor now because I finished college earlier this year but during college, i had access to the campus doctor which fulfilled the same roles(my family doctor was in another city anyway). I will have to find a general practitioner sooner or later and enroll myself to him in his practice.
I also have a job now but I don't need to get insurance. All I need is to get a general doctor and have him consult me. Lets say I have an infection or smth that needs an operation, he looks at me... he writes me a note to go to the hospital and get the operation done. If I want, I can pay and go to a private hospital... but why bother.

But there are things that I am allowed to do and pay for them if I want. For instance, I can have access to dental care in a public hospital but all my life I went to a private practice to the same doctor. I don't go there because the state tells me to, I do it because I like how she works and I trust her. I can switch dentists anytime I want, no problem. If I had a family doctor I could go to him, have him give me a note and go to the public hospital for dental care.


The point is. Obamacare is not universal healthcare. It's universal insurance for people, whether they want it or not. For instance, I don't want health insurance. Why would I? I have universal healthcare. But if my govt would say: ok, everyone needs to have PRIVATE health insurance, whether you're working or not, or you'll be fined... I'd be pissed. And so would a lot of other people.
Click to expand...

In Germany its also free to go to the dentist.
 
ChrisL said:
It is, but it's unrealistic to think everyone or even most people would. In a case of anarchy too, those who do survive are the ones who care the least usually. They are the ones willing to go to extremes to get what they want obviously. Especially those who are desperate.
Click to expand...

No no no, thats not the type of anarchy I am talking about. We must have laws.

Anarchy for me means that your life is not prescribed, that choice is up to people, rather than the system. in my view of anarchy, you must have laws, in particular those 10 commandmends for example.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Are you analysing yourself there and your very constructive input into this?
Click to expand...

Sick burn bruh.

Every generation since the dawn of time has had some doomsayer claiming that the current age was the most pathetic thing they've ever seen, and 99.9 percent of it is complete claptrap.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
In Germany its also free to go to the dentist.
Click to expand...

it's free to go to the state dentist here too, but I choose to go to a private practice.

ChrisL said:
What sucks is that our government is really bad at doing anything in an economically feasible fashion. They just suck at it. I wouldn't want to imagine the red tape and inefficiency involved if our government provided healthcare.
Click to expand...

From where I'm standing, I can see how universal healthcare in the USA would be a win all accross the board. And I know how Congress can do it in a way that it's impossible to **** up unless they're retarded. This is how:

Find a good-functioning universal healthcare law in Europe that belongs to a federation -> Germany.
Copy-paste it entirely and then just modify the names of the states. From Thuringia to Virginia. From Saxony to Kansas. From Hesse to Texas, etc. And make 50 of them. Then pass it.

Republicans would be happier because universal healthcare in Europe is cheaper than in the USA. Germany is in the top 10 countries in the world in terms of healthcare and it costs HALF of what healthcare costs in the USA and it's ranked much better.
Democrats would be happy because they'd learn how to read and write a successful piece of legislation.
Obama would be happy because he wouldn't have to deal with Congress for another debt limit dealing during his term and the people would be happier because of 2 reasons:
a) congress would actually DO something
b) they'd get better healthcare.

Ideally I'd say copy France's. Those frog-eaters have been in the top 3 with a preponderance to be #1 in healthcare for 20 years now. But they're a unitary state, not a federation, and trusting Congress to implement that law for a federation is too risky and too demanding, considering the intellectual capacity of 90% of Congress.
 
Rainman05 said:
it's free to go to the state dentist here too, but I choose to go to a private practice.



From where I'm standing, I can see how universal healthcare in the USA would be a win all accross the board. And I know how Congress can do it in a way that it's impossible to **** up unless they're retarded. This is how:

Find a good-functioning universal healthcare law in Europe that belongs to a federation -> Germany.
Copy-paste it entirely and then just modify the names of the states. From Thuringia to Virginia. From Saxony to Kansas. From Hesse to Texas, etc. And make 50 of them. Then pass it.

Republicans would be happier because universal healthcare in Europe is cheaper than in the USA. Germany is in the top 10 countries in the world in terms of healthcare and it costs HALF of what healthcare costs in the USA and it's ranked much better.
Democrats would be happy because they'd learn how to read and write a successful piece of legislation.
Obama would be happy because he wouldn't have to deal with Congress for another debt limit dealing during his term and the people would be happier because of 2 reasons:
a) congress would actually DO something
b) they'd get better healthcare.

Ideally I'd say copy France's. Those frog-eaters have been in the top 3 with a preponderance to be #1 in healthcare for 20 years now. But they're a unitary state, not a federation, and trusting Congress to implement that law for a federation is too risky and too demanding, considering the intellectual capacity of 90% of Congress.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the government doesn't actually care about us, but about those lobbyists which line their pockets and make donations to their campaign funds. :mrgreen: And some of them are apparently retarded too.
 
ChrisL said:
The problem is that the government doesn't actually care about us, but about those lobbyists which line their pockets and make donations to their campaign funds. :mrgreen: And some of them are apparently retarded too.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, anyone whose name has been attached to obamacare, as either a virulent opposition or a fanatic supporter ( who is that idiot who said: we need to pass the bill to know what's in it) needs to get kicked out and tried for treason. Or if treason is too hard, at least be looked at by teams of psychologists to determine what can cause infectious stupidity in people. They should donate their bodies to science... maybe we'll find a cure for idiocracy. I don't know. But anyone who hasn't been able to come up with a logical, good alternative, or propose a solution that isn't obamacare or the current system needs to be kicked out.

It is inhumane to go bankrupt because you need to live because you have a medical condition.

Now I'm not saying universal healthcare is flawless. It isn't. It can break. It's just the best option that combines actual healthcare with proper legislation and with sustainable costs.
 
Kobie said:
Sick burn bruh.

Every generation since the dawn of time has had some doomsayer claiming that the current age was the most pathetic thing they've ever seen, and 99.9 percent of it is complete claptrap.
Click to expand...

Nah, our past is tragic.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Yes, ofcourse, because you never sacrificed it enough thought. Thats why you believe that, in the same way some people believe in ghosts and magic.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm disconnected from reality. You figured it out!
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Yeah, thats right. Stick to the relevant bits like your government tought you.
Click to expand...

You could always move to a deserted island where there is no government. And, to the benefit of us all, stay there.
 
Rainman05 said:
it's free to go to the state dentist here too, but I choose to go to a private practice.
Click to expand...

In Germany most dentists are private practices. But they are nevertheless free for the people to get their dental check and get necessary dental work done.

Not cosmetic dental work though.. That still has to be funded privately.


Rainman05 said:
From where I'm standing, I can see how universal healthcare in the USA would be a win all accross the board. And I know how Congress can do it in a way that it's impossible to **** up unless they're retarded. This is how:

Find a good-functioning universal healthcare law in Europe that belongs to a federation -> Germany.
Copy-paste it entirely and then just modify the names of the states. From Thuringia to Virginia. From Saxony to Kansas. From Hesse to Texas, etc. And make 50 of them. Then pass it.

Republicans would be happier because universal healthcare in Europe is cheaper than in the USA. Germany is in the top 10 countries in the world in terms of healthcare and it costs HALF of what healthcare costs in the USA and it's ranked much better.
Democrats would be happy because they'd learn how to read and write a successful piece of legislation.
Obama would be happy because he wouldn't have to deal with Congress for another debt limit dealing during his term and the people would be happier because of 2 reasons:
a) congress would actually DO something
b) they'd get better healthcare.

Ideally I'd say copy France's. Those frog-eaters have been in the top 3 with a preponderance to be #1 in healthcare for 20 years now. But they're a unitary state, not a federation, and trusting Congress to implement that law for a federation is too risky and too demanding, considering the intellectual capacity of 90% of Congress.
Click to expand...

Germany has a fantastic healthcare system in my opinion. And one of the most innovative and efficient ones as well.


I am for open healthcare. And I am happy the US is taking steps in the right direction on this.
 
ChrisL said:
The problem is that the government doesn't actually care about us, but about those lobbyists which line their pockets and make donations to their campaign funds. :mrgreen: And some of them are apparently retarded too.
Click to expand...

Hehe, or perhaps they are just evil because they are profit seeking monsters. :mrgreen:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom