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Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

Is our civilisation pathetic?

  • Total voters
    51
Maximus Zeebra said:
Personally I am deeply ashamed to be a human being, being part of such a pathetic civilisation among people who do such horrendous things. I feel deeply ashamed that we let the people suffer, starve and die when we can EASILY do something about it. I feel sorry for all the dumb-asses who believe we live in good and free societies. Its probably because you only have trash to compare with.
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I'm curious as to what form of government you have in mind. The bottom line is there are always going to be corrupt people, and the more power they have the more corrupt and heartless they become. That is why democracy and giving the power to the people is the BEST form of government; also a good reason to stand up for and protect ALL of our rights. And let's be realistic, people are people. You aren't going to change human nature.

So I await your answer about which type of government you think would be better than what we currently have.
 
ChrisL said:
Just what system of government do you think affords more freedom to it's citizens?
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Switzerland have a far more democratic system than the rest of the western countries. That is a way we can move immediately and a system which is already possible for adoption.
It is however not perfect and not fully democratic, but we can work on that. There are many concepts though, that can be applied to make our system more democratic.

Plato for example thought that all politicians should live in poverty and lousy conditions, so that it would attract only those who are interested ideologically speaking. In many European countries we have problems with politicians who ride around in fancy car, attend champagne parties, ride private jets and generally ride their political position as some kind of status symbol.

If politics become unattractive for people who are seeking it for the wrong reasons, that is another step we can take.

In the US, the election system is deeply corrupt, and not really an election system, more of a selection between pest and cholera. Thats not how democracy is suppose to be. Actually, democracy should not be about parties at all, nor about politicians, it should be about policies. We should vote on policies in elections, not people. In proper democracy it is obvious that the people should be the ones who get to decide how we should move forward. It should not be dictated by our politicians and parties, and it certainly should not be held hostage and abused for election purposes.

Another step we can take is to implement more permanent policies that cannot be changed very easily. We should nail some values into our states that cannot just be chanhed by the next party in power. All societies have values, and in many of those societies, these values are easily changeable, even though that is not in the interest of the people or what they want.

Switzerland has that bit about the people voting on policies, although they also vote on parties and such garbage.


There are tons of things we could do to give the people power instead of the political elite.


Ooh, and my favorite part of Swizz democracy, is decentralisation of power. In Switzerland, each state have their own laws and can decide their own policies, and mostly only things that are necessary are centralised.

This should work as a good example for both Europe and the US where we have excessive centralisation. In particularily in the US you have excessive federal centralisation. In Europe we have excessive national centralisation, where we should have regional decentralised power.
 
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Maximus Zeebra said:
Its not about winning.

Its far more important that we all are not loosing
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Most of the people on this planet are not losers.

But some are, mainly because they see everyone else as losers.

What group do you think that you are in?

Think about it.

I really don't have time to sort you out, but you might want to do a little thinking about what you have ever done to make this world a better place.
 
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Maximus Zeebra said:
Switzerland have a far more democratic system than the rest of the western countries. That is a way we can move immediately and a system which is already possible for adoption.
It is however not perfect and not fully democratic, but we can work on that. There are many concepts though, that can be applied to make our system more democratic.
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Such as? I'm not too familiar with the way Switzerland does things. Could you be more specific?

Plato for example thought that all politicians should live in poverty and lousy conditions, so that it would attract only those who are interested ideologically speaking. In many European countries we have problems with politicians who ride around in fancy car, attend champagne parties, ride private jets and generally ride their political position as some kind of status symbol.

If politics become unattractive for people who are seeking it for the wrong reasons, that is another step we can take.
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Okay, but that is just not realistic. You are going to get what you pay for, even more incompetence.

In the US, the election system is deeply corrupt, and not really an election system, more of a selection between pest and cholera. Thats not how democracy is suppose to be. Actually, democracy should not be about parties at all, nor about politicians, it should be about policies. We should vote on policies in elections, not people. In proper democracy it is obvious that the people should be the ones who get to decide how we should move forward. It should not be dictated by our politicians and parties, and it certainly should not be held hostage and abused for election purposes.
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I completely agree, but those parties and their followers have completely taken over politics unfortunately. I would really love to get rid of both main parties.

Another step we can take is to implement more permanent policies that cannot be changed very easily. We should nail some values into our states that cannot just be chanhed by the next party in power. All societies have values, and in many of those societies, these values are easily changeable, even though that is not in the interest of the people or what they want.
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Well the problem with this is that everyone does not share the same value system. Everyone votes to reflect their own wants, needs and values.

Switzerland has that bit about the people voting on policies, although they also vote on parties and such garbage.


There are tons of things we could do to give the people power instead of the political elite.
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Some good points but no real solutions that I can see. I'm sure Sweden and Switzerland have their own issues.
 
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Henrin said:
I'd rather government protect the liberty for all it's citizens. Even that means people like yourself are unhappy for some strange reason.
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Well then, we feel the same. I'm staying. Civilization is better than it ever has been and my standard of living is beyond the dreams of just a couple generations ago. Self-righteous, self-absorbed, conspiracy theorist, fringe partisan malcontents can go.
 
The Mark said:
stuff
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Perhaps you should widen your debate and not get stuck in claims, unecessary details and dictating the opinions and correct formulation of others?

The box is your lack of looking at the bigger picture obviously, and being trapped in the box and a certain way of thinking.
 
shrubnose said:
Most of the people on this planet are not losers.

But some are, because they see others as losers.

What group do you think that you are in?

Think about it.
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Very constructive. Twisting my words and trying to insult me.

What I said earlier still applies to you. How can you not have learned proper politeness and some elegance and grace in your 70 years on this planet?





Ps. I never said people are losers, I said I don't want us to loose
 
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shrubnose said:
Most of the people on this planet are not losers.

But some are, because they see others as losers.

What group do you think that you are in?

Think about it.
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Wait..are you saying that you judge people as losers that judge other people as losers. Isn't that calling yourself a loser?
 
Henrin said:
I'd rather government protect the liberty for all it's citizens. Even that means people like yourself are unhappy for some strange reason.
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Finally someone who nailed it. This is essentially the my whole point and a prerequisite for a good world.

Many of the things in the OP is about that exactly.
 
ecofarm said:
Well then, we feel the same. I'm staying. Civilization is better than it ever has been and my standard of living is beyond the dreams of just a couple generations ago. Self-righteous, self-absorbed, conspiracy theorist, fringe partisan malcontents can go.
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Its easy to say something is a conspiracy theory when you don't want to face reality.

In your country in particular has power centralised and government taken away your rights the last 15 years.
 
ecofarm said:
Well then, we feel the same. I'm staying. Civilization is better than it ever has been and my standard of living is beyond the dreams of just a couple generations ago. Self-righteous, self-absorbed, conspiracy theorist, fringe partisan malcontents can go.
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I agree. Our lives are easier and the quality of life is better than at any point in history. People apparently expect perfection, and they are always going to be disappointed.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Finally someone who nailed it. This is essentially the my whole point and a prerequisite for a good world.

Many of the things in the OP is about that exactly.
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It's so simple minded though. Sure it's nice to dream. :lol:
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Very constructive. Twisting my words and trying to insult me.

What I said earlier still applies to you. How can you not have learned proper politeness and some elegance and grace in your 70 years on this planet?





Ps. I never said people are losers, I said I don't want us to loose
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Learning how to spell correctly is very simple.

I see poor spellers as losers and I see no reason to cut them any slack.
 
It's important to realize that there's no such thing as perfection. Every system of government is going to have it's pitfalls. Every person has his or her own flaws. People are inherently selfish and look out to protect their own interests. That is a survival mechanism.
 
ChrisL said:
Such as? I'm not too familiar with the way Switzerland does things. Could you be more specific?
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Switzerland is kind of a federation. Each state in it, is independent actually, practically. It is how the US model should have been. Power is decentralised into those states, rather than centralised as a national government. They do have a national government and it does have powers, but each state can choose not to follow any new law of that centralised government.

I am not extremely strong in my understanding of the Swizz model, but as far as I know, most policies are managed at the state level, rather than the federal level. And those at the federal level is more a cooperation organisation for the states where they agree on common policies and implement them together.

In Switzerland the people have the right to call for a referedum on ANY policy. This means that any point the people of the states, and I think also at a national level can vote to discard any policy, or implement any popular policy. Referendums are popular in Switzerland, there are many of them, especially at the state levels.


ChrisL said:
Okay, but that is just not realistic. You are going to get what you pay for, even more incompetence.
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I dont agree, I think it is the opposite. Money creates the corruption, and the lack of it would bring only people who have important views, into politics.

But then again, I think politicians should not be the people in power, I think they should be idea makers, just like Plato thought. The philosophers should be the politicians. But unlike Plato I think the people should be the ones with the power.


ChrisL said:
I completely agree, but those parties and their followers have completely taken over politics unfortunately. I would really love to get rid of both main parties.
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Its terrible. In Europe we have many parties, but almost the same scenario as in the US. We have two "alliances" and they fight to get power, they fight to be right, and have absolutely no regard for what the people want.


ChrisL said:
Well the problem with this is that everyone does not share the same value system. Everyone votes to reflect their own wants, needs and values.
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Ooh yes, ofcourse. I did not mean values actually. I meant "state values", being laws that represents the general values of a majority. Not 50%, but a huge majority, lets say 75% for example.
There are many cases where the government goes against the obvious values of their people when changing laws. This should not be possible.

We need to vote and cement a certain foundation of our state. Like the constitution for example. That should be unchangable. Bill of rights being state values for example.

Unfortunately in the US, now the politicians do not care about it anymore.

ChrisL said:
Some good points but no real solutions that I can see. I'm sure Sweden and Switzerland have their own issues.
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Sweden and Switzerland are very different, whereas Sweden have a faulty democratic system just like the US and most European systems, Switzerland have a different democratic system from everyone else in the west, and the world actually.

i am not saying its perfect, but it is a good beginning. Switzerland do have their own issues, and the people is not fully in charge, which is why there are some policies that I am sure most Swiss people do not support.
 
Henrin said:
Wait..are you saying that you judge people as losers that judge other people as losers. Isn't that calling yourself a loser?
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That isn't what I said.

Anyone who incorrectly interprets what others say in a way that benefits them is a loser.

Now do you get it?
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Money creates the corruption, and the lack of it would bring only people who have important views, into politics.
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Corruption existed long before money. Money does not create. It is a tool, a simple inanimate object. Blaming it for anything is stupid.
 
ecofarm said:
Corruption existed long before money. Money does not create. It is a tool, a simple inanimate object. Blaming it for anything is stupid.
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Why am I not surprised that a guy who thinks that our civilization is pathetic didn't know that?

Any ideas?

Anyone who throws every member of any group into a bag and says that that are all the same has a problem.

And if they refuse to recognize that fact they have another problem.

I have no sympathy for those people.
 
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Maximus Zeebra said:
Switzerland is kind of a federation. Each state in it, is independent actually, practically. It is how the US model should have been. Power is decentralised into those states, rather than centralised as a national government. They do have a national government and it does have powers, but each state can choose not to follow any new law of that centralised government.

I am not extremely strong in my understanding of the Swizz model, but as far as I know, most policies are managed at the state level, rather than the federal level. And those at the federal level is more a cooperation organisation for the states where they agree on common policies and implement them together.

In Switzerland the people have the right to call for a referedum on ANY policy. This means that any point the people of the states, and I think also at a national level can vote to discard any policy, or implement any popular policy. Referendums are popular in Switzerland, there are many of them, especially at the state levels.
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Well, this is exactly how things were supposed to be in the US. Unfortunately, our federal government has grown exponentially and not enough people are willing to make a stand against it. As a matter of fact, we do have quite a large portion of the population which seems to have grown "dependent" upon the government for lack of a better word. They vote for these politicians who will take care of their needs, regardless of anything else IMO. These are the people who allow the federal government to have such invasive long arm policies, and their policies and laws take precedent over those of any states. When a state, such as Arizona recently, tries to enact their own rules and regulations, they are overruled by courts which side with the feds.


I dont agree, I think it is the opposite. Money creates the corruption, and the lack of it would bring only people who have important views, into politics.
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I disagree. A poor person can be just as corrupt as any rich person. A poor person would have much more to gain and have more wants, therefore easier to buy. Besides, you have to think of the level of intelligence of such a person.

But then again, I think politicians should not be the people in power, I think they should be idea makers, just like Plato thought. The philosophers should be the politicians. But unlike Plato I think the people should be the ones with the power.
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And this is the most difficult part when you have any kind of government. It's not as if corruption didn't exist even back then.




Its terrible. In Europe we have many parties, but almost the same scenario as in the US. We have two "alliances" and they fight to get power, they fight to be right, and have absolutely no regard for what the people want.
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It's pathetic and disheartening for sure.




Ooh yes, ofcourse. I did not mean values actually. I meant "state values", being laws that represents the general values of a majority. Not 50%, but a huge majority, lets say 75% for example.
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But then, you have to think of those who would be disenfranchised, such as homosexuals who want to marry. If the majority would vote against them being able to be married? There are always going to be groups of people who aren't happy. The saying that you can't please everyone is true.

There are many cases where the government goes against the obvious values of their people when changing laws. This should not be possible.

We need to vote and cement a certain foundation of our state. Like the constitution for example. That should be unchangable. Bill of rights being state values for example.
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I completely agree.

Unfortunately in the US, now the politicians do not care about it anymore.
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I don't think that's just a US phenomenon. :lol: People are people where ever you might be.

Sweden and Switzerland are very different, whereas Sweden have a faulty democratic system just like the US and most European systems, Switzerland have a different democratic system from everyone else in the west, and the world actually.

i am not saying its perfect, but it is a good beginning. Switzerland do have their own issues, and the people is not fully in charge, which is why there are some policies that I am sure most Swiss people do not support.
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You keep singing the praises of this form of government, but I really don't see many differences that you've pointed out, and also the ones that have been pointed out would still leave some people feeling disenfranchised, so you have solved the problem from one point of view only.
 
shrubnose said:
Why am I not surprised that a guy who thinks that our civilization is pathetic didn't know that?

Any ideas?
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My guess? Never had any and/or gave it all to the mosque and thinks that makes him not corrupt.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
That's not for me to be expanding on. It is for everyone in this world to decide.

But for that to work, we have to have actual democracy where the people openly partake and decide in the shaping of our society instead of some monsterously corrupt devils in a deeply corrupt political elite governenment. And yes, I am talking about the whole world, and in particular about Europe and the US where we have this delusion that we are a democracy.

So, to start with, I would suggest we set up a real democracy.
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You utter many slogans, but no content.

Why are our democracies no "real" democracies? What would a "real democracy" look like? How do we get one? Details, please.
 
ecofarm said:
My guess? Never had any and/or gave it all to the mosque and thinks that makes him not corrupt.
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My guess would be young and idealistic. :) Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not realistic.

Hey that rhymes! I'm a poet and I didn't know it. :2razz:
 
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