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Blaming the Victim

Is blaming the victim a problem in our society?


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Valid explanation: We're experiencing a lull in the economy, jobs are going away, and I'm having trouble fulfilling expectations of employers.

Excuse: Rich people suck, they're the reason why I don't have a job!

So that explains how you view what they have to say for themselves. What about what others say on their behalf? In other words, if I think that a large part of my kids bad attitude today is because his Dad was a dick to him, chances are that while I still expect him to behave himself, I will probably address that behavior in a different way then if he just woke up in a ****ty little mood. So if someone is raised in poverty, got a ****ty education, their parents gave up a long time ago and raised them believing there was no hope, their community is riddled with violence etc... If that someone behaves in a way I deem anti-social or destructive to others, I will probably give that person a little more room and approach them differently. Because I would first have to convince them that not only is there opportunity for a better life but that they are capable of achieving it and until they believe that their lives stay the same. Those to me are examples of conditions and legit reasons why someone ends up failing themselves, some call those excuses. I am not naive enough to believe that everyone one who fails does so for these reasons but I do believe there are many lives that get lost in hopelessness for these very reasons that would not be if they were convinced about other options and their ability to achieve them.
 
and as DVS is trying to deny, there is a lot of blaming people for being born poor.

Blaming people for being born poor? Nope, what they did for themselves afterwards, sure. See, here's the deal. I was born into a "working poor" family. We were "working poor" most of my childhood. We never too food stamps and we never sat around waiting for the government to do something for us. I started working when I was 13. Since then I have bought my own clothes, shoes and I purchased my own vehicle and paid for the insurance starting at age 15.

I am where I am today, not rich by any means, because of choices I made. If your born poor and you want to play the "victim" the only thing you are a victim of is your own poor choices and your unwillingness not to take opportunities to better yourself.
 
So that explains how you view what they have to say for themselves. What about what others say on their behalf? In other words, if I think that a large part of my kids bad attitude today is because his Dad was a dick to him, chances are that while I still expect him to behave himself, I will probably address that behavior in a different way then if he just woke up in a ****ty little mood. So if someone is raised in poverty, got a ****ty education, their parents gave up a long time ago and raised them believing there was no hope, their community is riddled with violence etc... If that someone behaves in a way I deem anti-social or destructive to others, I will probably give that person a little more room and approach them differently. Because I would first have to convince them that not only is there opportunity for a better life but that they are capable of achieving it and until they believe that their lives stay the same. Those to me are examples of conditions and legit reasons why someone ends up failing themselves, some call those excuses. I am not naive enough to believe that everyone one who fails does so for these reasons but I do believe there are many lives that get lost in hopelessness for these very reasons that would not be if they were convinced about other options and their ability to achieve them.

We still live in a "land of opportunity" where social mobilization is as high, if not higher, than anywhere else in the world. If someone wants something badly enough, odds are likely that they'll get it. Poor people will have a tougher time in primary school, but once college time comes around, they have so many tickets out.

Everybody runs the same race. Some people have better starting points, but all participants have a reachable finish line.

If you're a poor minority, scholarship money is practically THROWN at you. If you're a black female, all you have to do is schedule a civil service exam, put down your name, check the "African-American" and "female" boxes, and show up next Monday. If that's not enough, start kickin' around words like "Affirmative Action" to sweeten your pot.

On top of that, there is nothing keeping children (or adults, for that matter) from self-improving. Hell, in school I learned more from myself reading books and satiating my intellectual curiosity than I did from listing to some apple-polisher drone on in her own cute little way.

Even though I'm a white male, I was latchkey since 6 with a mother who had to keep a home and food on the table with alimony checks and factory job paychecks. Ask me if I got grants for college, I dare you...

This is why I'm posting as someone with an MBA instead of an excuse. I wanted better for myself, and by God I went out and got it.
 
We still live in a "land of opportunity" where social mobilization is as high, if not higher, than anywhere else in the world. If someone wants something badly enough, odds are likely that they'll get it. Poor people will have a tougher time in primary school, but once college time comes around, they have so many tickets out.

Everybody runs the same race. Some people have better starting points, but all participants have a reachable finish line.

If you're a poor minority, scholarship money is practically THROWN at you. If you're a black female, all you have to do is schedule a civil service exam, put down your name, check the "African-American" and "female" boxes, and show up next Monday. If that's not enough, start kickin' around words like "Affirmative Action" to sweeten your pot.

On top of that, there is nothing keeping children (or adults, for that matter) from self-improving. Hell, in school I learned more from myself reading books and satiating my intellectual curiosity than I did from listing to some apple-polisher drone on in her own cute little way.

Even though I'm a white male, I was latchkey since 6 with a mother who had to keep a home and food on the table with alimony checks and factory job paychecks. Ask me if I got grants for college, I dare you...

This is why I'm posting as someone with an MBA instead of an excuse. I wanted better for myself, and by God I went out and got it.

No, we're not number 1 for social mobility. In fact, Canada, Spain, France, and I believe Australia have us beat. http://carnegie.org/fileadmin/Media/Publications/social_mobility_summit_2012_v4.pdf
Social mobility: the charts that shame Britain | News | theguardian.com I hate to break it to you, but we're not the shining city on the hill we used to be. The only thing we have left to feel superior about is our military. Big whoop, we're the best at blowing people up.
 
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No, we're not number 1 for social mobility. In fact, Canada, Spain, France, and I believe Australia have us beat. http://carnegie.org/fileadmin/Media/Publications/social_mobility_summit_2012_v4.pdf
Social mobility: the charts that shame Britain | News | theguardian.com I hate to break it to you, but we're not the shining city on the hill we used to be. The only thing we have left to feel superior about is our military. Big whoop, we're the best at blowing people up.

I figured it may not be the highest (since there are so many countries out there, many of which are not in an economically bad place right now), but I'd still contend with anyone who says that it's not high.
 
I figured it may not be the highest (since there are so many countries out there, many of which are not in an economically bad place right now), but I'd still contend with anyone who says that it's not high.

At least we're not the UK. :lol:
 
At least we're not the UK. :lol:

Well, I question the validity of that report when it mentioned France and Spain as "socially mobile" anyway.

UK has to be higher than both of those countries.
 
Well, I question the validity of that report when it mentioned France and Spain as "socially mobile" anyway.

UK has to be higher than both of those countries.
Eh, I believe it. From what I hear the UK isn't doing to hot economically lately.
 
Eh, I believe it. From what I hear the UK isn't doing to hot economically lately.

They had nowhere to go but down. When much of Europe was sinking, they were managing to stay afloat pretty well.

Everything's cyclical, I guess.
 
They had nowhere to go but down. When much of Europe was sinking, they were managing to stay afloat pretty well.

Everything's cyclical, I guess.

Don't take my word for it. Read what the Guardian has to say about it.
 
Define "victim", please.


I think it needs to be more like: Define "blaming the victim". Or there is a term of a slightly different perspective known as "denying the victim"

At any rate....

But like you, I think we need a base definition in order to offer an opinion.
 
Blaming people for being born poor? Nope, what they did for themselves afterwards, sure. See, here's the deal. I was born into a "working poor" family. We were "working poor" most of my childhood. We never too food stamps and we never sat around waiting for the government to do something for us. I started working when I was 13. Since then I have bought my own clothes, shoes and I purchased my own vehicle and paid for the insurance starting at age 15.

I am where I am today, not rich by any means, because of choices I made. If your born poor and you want to play the "victim" the only thing you are a victim of is your own poor choices and your unwillingness not to take opportunities to better yourself.

If you never had to take food stamps then you were not poor the way the people I'm talking about are. If you weren't constantly worried about paying your rent, then you were not poor the way the poor of this country are today. If you bought a car at 15 and paid for the insurance, then you were not poor the way food stamp recipients are today. When you were 15, the wages you were making for whatever job you had could buy four times as much as they can now. I don't mean due to inflation. I mean that it would have taken four times as many hours of work to buy the same thing now that it did then. The era you grew up in is gone. The divide, not just between rich and poor, but everybody and poor, is much wider. Saying that this change is just due to "poor choices" is exactly blaming the victim.
 
If you never had to take food stamps then you were not poor the way the people I'm talking about are. If you weren't constantly worried about paying your rent, then you were not poor the way the poor of this country are today. If you bought a car at 15 and paid for the insurance, then you were not poor the way food stamp recipients are today. When you were 15, the wages you were making for whatever job you had could buy four times as much as they can now. I don't mean due to inflation. I mean that it would have taken four times as many hours of work to buy the same thing now that it did then. The era you grew up in is gone. The divide, not just between rich and poor, but everybody and poor, is much wider. Saying that this change is just due to "poor choices" is exactly blaming the victim.

Every time something within the realm of this topic arises. It never fails that a lot of people demonstrate that they simply aren't educated in...or are aware of the complexities of generational poverty.

It's always assumed that all people have the same perspectives on what social norms are or aren't. Or that all people have equal opportunity if they just apply themselves foregoing all of the instances in which we know prejudices and discrimination are prevalent. Or that the common socialization processes should inspire those who are born to lower socioeconomic families...suddenly see the light and the errors of their fathers and mothers...and prior generations who all seems to be victims of their own lack of willingness to rise above the obvious.

Thanks Pasche..
 
If you never had to take food stamps then you were not poor the way the people I'm talking about are. If you weren't constantly worried about paying your rent, then you were not poor the way the poor of this country are today. If you bought a car at 15 and paid for the insurance, then you were not poor the way food stamp recipients are today. When you were 15, the wages you were making for whatever job you had could buy four times as much as they can now. I don't mean due to inflation. I mean that it would have taken four times as many hours of work to buy the same thing now that it did then. The era you grew up in is gone. The divide, not just between rich and poor, but everybody and poor, is much wider. Saying that this change is just due to "poor choices" is exactly blaming the victim.

A Big Mac here is 3 bucks now. Are you saying that it was 75 cents when I was 15? I promise you that you're wrong.

When I was young, a VHS VCR costs 2,000 dollars. Today I can get a Blu-ray player for 70. Yeah, that dollar sure has lost its stretch...
 
A Big Mac here is 3 bucks now. Are you saying that it was 75 cents when I was 15? I promise you that you're wrong.

When I was young, a VHS VCR costs 2,000 dollars. Today I can get a Blu-ray player for 70. Yeah, that dollar sure has lost its stretch...

Why are you talking about inflation? I'm talking about the ratio of time spent working for wages and buying power. The cost of a Big Mac, as you decide to measure this in, is not important because of how much it cost when you were 15. It matters how many hours of work earning that money took.
 
Why are you talking about inflation? I'm talking about the ratio of time spent working for wages and buying power. The cost of a Big Mac, as you decide to measure this in, is not important because of how much it cost when you were 15. It matters how many hours of work earning that money took.

Well, when I was 15 the minimum wage was 4.25. It's now 3 dollars higher.

If you're asking me if the price of a Big Mac, ceteris paribus, has gone up 75% since I was 15...the answer is "nuh uh".
 
Well, when I was 15 the minimum wage was 4.25. It's now 3 dollars higher.

If you're asking me if the price of a Big Mac, ceteris paribus, has gone up 75% since I was 15...the answer is "nuh uh".

Congratulations? Do you want a cookie? Do you really think that the price of Big Macs is a good indicator for the whole economy? What is the point of your complaint here? To show how little you understand about the issue at hand? You did that, so I guess a cookie is in order. Or maybe a Big Mac, I suppose.
 
Is blaming the victim a problem in our society?

Tough to ask because people define this in different ways, and in different situations.

For example...

In response to a story about a terror attack by islamists, is suggesting that people should understand that our political actions in the Middle East causes them to hate us "blaming the victim"? What about responding to the attack by talking exclusively about “Blowback”? What about suggesting that the US deserves it? What about suggesting that it’s our “chickens coming home to roost”?

In response to a story about a rape after a long night at a bar, is suggesting that the woman shouldn't have been out drinking alone that late "blaming the victim"? What about someone suggesting “She had it coming” for flirting with a guy? Or perhaps someone stating that she shouldn’t be out drinking at all?

In response to a story about a guy being beaten after saying racial slurs to some black men out in the alley behind a bar, is suggesting that he shouldn’t have gone back out in the alley in such a situation “blaming the victim”? What about suggesting he was “asking for it” by using racial slurs? Or saying he should’ve been beaten even worse?

In response to a story about a guy being fired for telling off an employee who left a bad tip, is suggesting that he should’ve told his Manager the issue and urged him to act “blaming the victim”? How about suggesting you would’ve fired his ass too for acting like that?

What about situations where there’s no clear “perpetrator” or even “victim”, as it’s PURELY a matter of one’s INDIVIDUAL OPINION and view point, such as a story about an individual whose out of a job and whose welfare is going out?

You ask a VERY broad question that can't honestly be answered without some clearer explanation
 
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Congratulations? Do you want a cookie? Do you really think that the price of Big Macs is a good indicator for the whole economy? What is the point of your complaint here? To show how little you understand about the issue at hand? You did that, so I guess a cookie is in order. Or maybe a Big Mac, I suppose.

Okay then, what's your bar? I'd love to know your measuring stick on "everything's 4x more expensive".

If one of us lacks comprehension, it's clearly you. Of course, as a socialist, you can't help but be ignorant to economics. If you weren't, you wouldn't be a socialist.
 
Okay then, what's your bar? I'd love to know your measuring stick on "everything's 4x more expensive".

If one of us lacks comprehension, it's clearly you. Of course, as a socialist, you can't help but be ignorant to economics. If you weren't, you wouldn't be a socialist.

It's been explained in dozens of threads already. Try to keep up. It's really a waste of time having to go over the basics with deniers over and over. Like the 47% don't pay taxes nonsense. That got old really fast, too. Bonus points for the idiotic lean attack. If you had positions that weren't solely about your own selfish gain, you wouldn't be a libertarian. See how easy that is?
 
For those of you who didn't get the reference to the last choice:

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I don't think blaming the victim is really an issue.

The problem is more along the lines of inaccurate determination of who IS the victim. Or for that matter, if ANYONE is.
And since the related argument is whose FAULT it is, we run into issues....especially when it isn't anyone's fault.
 
Is blaming the victim a problem in our society?

It does happen sometimes, but it's a very minor problem. And in some cases it's blown way out of proportion. With rape victims particularly, things that are genuinely meant as helpful advice are often painted as 'blaming the victim'.
 
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