Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed? [W:83]

obvious Child · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

ChezC3 said:
Ah ta ta...:naughty

We're done, remember?

Hahaha. Anyone can go back and read it and decide who knows more.

Hint: Most of them aren't going to side with a guy who requires magic.

Cyrylek · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

NIMBY said:
You should ask Israel whether they think PUTIN is a Russian or a Soviet?.

Now you just being ridiculous. The old USSR had nothing but relentless hostility for Israel. Now, the two countries have vigorous trade, cultural ties, and plenty of military cooperation.

Some of that cooperation being of a...rather peculiar character:

Haaretz

Israel selling reconnaissance drones to Russia

By Yossi Melman | Apr. 12, 2009 | 1:39 AM

"Russia has signed a contract to purchase Israeli reconnaissance drones in an attempt to improve its own unmanned aircraft after a poor performance in the war against Georgia last August. The deal, the first-ever purchase announced by Russia of Israeli military hardware, was signed about three weeks ago by senior Israeli and Russian officials".

Sure, Israel is not thrilled with Russia propping up Assad (and Saddam, before that). But during the Arab Springs in North Africa, the general tone of comments from Jerusalem and from Moscow was exactly the same: better the corrupt secular dictators like Mubarak than the democratically elected "Islamist" fanatics.

WPR Article | Global Insider: Russia-Israel Relations Continue Steady Improvement

Linc · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

testing

Linc · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

Cyrylek said:
Improvement

You'll have to excuse me Please.
I'm just a little upset at the "enemy within" at this moment.

TurtleDude · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

NIMBY said:
Your "boy" Pootin, as you called Obama a "boy" is winning because of the enemy within, the GOP. Own it.

both are leftwing scum bags. The difference is -Obama costs us more money than the Russian Commie does

TurtleDude · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

NIMBY said:
You'll have to excuse me Please.
I'm just a little upset at the "enemy within" at this moment.

Lots of us see Obama as the enemy within

or even the Fungus Among US

SBu · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

aberrant85 said:
In an Op-Ed in the New York Times, Putin bypassed diplomatic channels and spoke directly to the American people.

Among his arguments:

-The UN must be allowed to work.
-Attacking Syria will destabilize the region
-The opposition used chemical weapons, not Assad
-Diplomacy must be used instead of force
-America is not exceptional

How much of his argument holds some water, and how much is BS?

Most, if not all of it is BS.

-UN must be allowed to work: Because it's worked so well thus far? So far all it's done is document the carnage of the civil war. Funny coming from Russia which has blocked most resolutions on Syria.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/w...th-toll-said-to-rise.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Russia blocks UN condemnation of Syrian fighting | The Times of Israel
Russia, China Block Another U.N. Resolution On Syria : NPR
-Attacking Syria will destabilize the region: Probably wouldn't destabilize it more than it already is other than backing Iran into a corner and hurting other Russian interests
-The opposition used chem weapons: Unfortunately, we the general public can never know this for certain. It is something that we have to rely on our gov't for accurate info.
-Diplomacy must be used instead of force: Again, we've been trying that since the beginning. Unfortunately our foreign policy with regard to Syria has been a mess since the beginning, but the UN hasn't helped much
-America is not exceptional: BS. Sure, we have our fair share of problems like any other country, but overall we are an exceptional country. I would say the cliche when politicians use the phrase is exceptionally lame.

This thing by Putin is ridiculous. It is an outright appeal to Americans to belittle themselves (which plenty are willing to do). This deal thing is extremely shaky and is probably more of a delaying tactic than anything else so Russia, Iran, and Syria have more time to figure out what to do and make preparations.

Kal'Stang · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

Moderator's Warning:

*looks around* Lets keep it civil please. Remember, talk to the posts...not the poster.

MadLib · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

aberrant85 said:
-The UN must be allowed to work.

Apparently the UN was not needed when he decided to conquer Chechnya and when he decided to launch a war against Georgia.

-Attacking Syria will destabilize the region

I don't think anyone would argue that selling arms to Assad helped to create a more stable situation in Syria.

-The opposition used chemical weapons, not Assad

Israeli, American, French, and British intelligence all seems to disagree with that :shrug:

-Diplomacy must be used instead of force

I would agree, but the usage of chemical weapons is not the only important issue here. Assad has been waging unrestricted warfare against his own people for two years now in order to prevent his toppling. Furthermore, we have interests at stake in Syria - the weakening of Iran, the removal of a dictator who has sponsored terrorists in Iraq and Lebanon to undermine us and Israel, respectively; as well as others - and so long as the harm done to human dignity is not disproportionate to the potential benefits of military action, I see no problem with doing whatever is necessary to promote our interests.

-America is not exceptional

No country is better than any other country. However, American democracy is not only exceptional, but it is vastly superior to Baathist (aka National Socialist) ideology.

vesper · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

NIMBY said:
Your "boy" Pootin, as you called Obama a "boy" is winning because of the enemy within, the GOP. Own it.

That kind of thinking would be equal to someone stating the DNC launching a Carlos Danger aka Anthony Weiner action figure to be sold and proceeds to fund the Republican War on Women.

Obama looks weak because he is. The only good thing that has come out of this mess is we finally hear John Kerry blame someone else for atrocities other than our soldiers.

APACHERAT · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

MadLib said:
No country is better than any other country. However, American democracy is not only exceptional, but it is vastly superior to Baathist (aka National Socialist) ideology.

It's also vastly superior to American liberal "internationalist socialist" ideology.

Lukas105 · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

1. The U.N. can work, but it's those in the Security Council that act like little children, including Russia and the United States, ruin it.
2. U.S. Intervention can cause the Middle East to explode, with Iran and other countries joining in the fray. Risking that alone, is not worth it.
3. If you say we should rely on the government to make the right choice, I remind you that the news hyped about Saddam using chemical weapons on his people and had WMDs, That turned out to be a big lie.
4. All that I have heard from the President is, We should bomb this and bomb that, not very often have I heard, lets talk this out. He pushes for immediate force, not thinking very much into the problem at all.
5.The U.S. is just a normal country like everybody else, we shouldn't disregard another countries sovereignty just to further our agenda.

SBu said:
Most, if not all of it is BS.

-UN must be allowed to work: Because it's worked so well thus far? So far all it's done is document the carnage of the civil war. Funny coming from Russia which has blocked most resolutions on Syria.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/w...th-toll-said-to-rise.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Russia blocks UN condemnation of Syrian fighting | The Times of Israel
Russia, China Block Another U.N. Resolution On Syria : NPR
-Attacking Syria will destabilize the region: Probably wouldn't destabilize it more than it already is other than backing Iran into a corner and hurting other Russian interests
-The opposition used chem weapons: Unfortunately, we the general public can never know this for certain. It is something that we have to rely on our gov't for accurate info.
-Diplomacy must be used instead of force: Again, we've been trying that since the beginning. Unfortunately our foreign policy with regard to Syria has been a mess since the beginning, but the UN hasn't helped much
-America is not exceptional: BS. Sure, we have our fair share of problems like any other country, but overall we are an exceptional country. I would say the cliche when politicians use the phrase is exceptionally lame.

This thing by Putin is ridiculous. It is an outright appeal to Americans to belittle themselves (which plenty are willing to do). This deal thing is extremely shaky and is probably more of a delaying tactic than anything else so Russia, Iran, and Syria have more time to figure out what to do and make preparations.

Capster78 · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

He makes some valid points. I believe that intervining in the area is certainly the responsibility of the international community. Simply due to the fact that chemical weapons have been used. It would actually be less concerning if the Syrian government had used them but the charge that rebel forces used them is much more alarming and much more a reason for the international community to be involved. This means that somewhere, someone is either selling government weapons to the rebels, or they are unsecured weapons stolen from the government. We can't have these weapons loose and in the hands of rebel groups who often don't abide by international laws.

However, the solution is certainly not lobbing missiles into syria to destabalize the government. We would be repeating the mistake we made in Iraq by destroying what little infrastructure, law and order there is in syria and leaving a vacume which insurgents from outside the region are going to take advantage of. The syrian government may be tyranical, but what would replace it in the event we destroy its ability to fend off the likes of AQ and the remnents of the Taliban? The only military intervention that would be successful would be a full invasion with boots on the ground. Anything other than that will simply be ineffective and more damaging then just leaving it the way it is.

MadLib · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

APACHERAT said:
It's also vastly superior to American liberal "internationalist socialist" ideology.

I honestly don't know what this means, but exporting capitalist republicanism is hardly "internationalist socialist ideology," if that's what you're getting at.

Linc · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

MadLib said:
Apparently the UN was not needed when he decided to conquer Chechnya and when he decided to launch a war against Georgia.

I don't think anyone would argue that selling arms to Assad helped to create a more stable situation in Syria.

Israeli, American, French, and British intelligence all seems to disagree with that :shrug:

Not to mention that of the Israelis, better than all of the above.

SBu · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

Lukas105 said:
1. The U.N. can work, but it's those in the Security Council that act like little children, including Russia and the United States, ruin it.
2. U.S. Intervention can cause the Middle East to explode, with Iran and other countries joining in the fray. Risking that alone, is not worth it.
3. If you say we should rely on the government to make the right choice, I remind you that the news hyped about Saddam using chemical weapons on his people and had WMDs, That turned out to be a big lie.
4. All that I have heard from the President is, We should bomb this and bomb that, not very often have I heard, lets talk this out. He pushes for immediate force, not thinking very much into the problem at all.
5.The U.S. is just a normal country like everybody else, we shouldn't disregard another countries sovereignty just to further our agenda.

Thank you for numbering since it's a lot easier to respond that way.

1. I feel that believing the UN can work when it comes to crises involving multiple interests is naive. Agree to disagree I guess.
2. Agree, actually. Which is why I don't support a strike...especially a very small ineffectual one. I would prefer covert meddling and economic and political sanctions, if poss.
3. I never said that we have to rely on the gov't to make right choices. Do you have access to classified info? Unless you do, I guess we'll have to rely on the gov't.
4. Actually he only comes to the decision to bomb months or years after the opportunity to "talk it out" has passed. So I guess we agree on this point since you didn't criticize my point. Rather you piled on more criticism.
5. Just another country that is exceptionally different with exceptional potential, exceptional institutions, etc....exceptional exceptional. Agree to disagree I suppose.

APACHERAT · Sep 12, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

MadLib said:
I honestly don't know what this means, but exporting capitalist republicanism is hardly "internationalist socialist ideology," if that's what you're getting at.

Republicans have little if any thing in common with internationalist socialist.

Obama is an internationalist socialist. He even said so in his book "Dreams From My father."

Todays liberals are internationalist who blame America for everything that's wrong in the world. Blame America first.

obvious Child · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

"Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression. "

Uh huh. Is that why Putin invaded Georgia without the UN approval? Oh wait. Shoot sorry. I'm being consistent.

Is that also why as Prime Minster Putin ordered a campaign that killed 160,000 in Chechnya? Shoot sorry again. I'm being consistent.

Aren't Russian forces still occupying parts of Georgia illegally? Shoot sorry again. I'm being consistent.

Putin is more of a lying hypocrite then the worst users here:

Vladimir Putin's 1999 Chechnya Op-Ed - Business Insider

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ew_york_times_op_ed_is_all_hypocrisy_and.html

UN authorization only matters when Russians aren't doing the invading and killing.

DDD · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

obvious Child said:
"Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression. "

Uh huh. Is that why Putin invaded Georgia without the UN approval? Oh wait. Shoot sorry. I'm being consistent.

Is that also why as Prime Minster Putin ordered a campaign that killed 160,000 in Chechnya? Shoot sorry again. I'm being consistent.

Aren't Russian forces still occupying parts of Georgia illegally? Shoot sorry again. I'm being consistent.

Putin is more of a lying hypocrite then the worst users here:

Vladimir Putin's 1999 Chechnya Op-Ed - Business Insider

Russia’s role in Syria: Putin’s New York Times op-ed is all hypocrisy and lies. - Slate Magazine

UN authorization only matters when Russians aren't doing the invading and killing.

I think what made Putin this bold is that he is feeding on explicit anti-Obama content. He knows that Obama has no support and exploits it to the degree of addressing the people of USA. If this stands and he is more popular and authoritative then Obama then why should the army listen to Obama instead of Putin?

The media has fallen over their heels over Putin, when will the audience, policymakers, and alas the military do also? Where is the internal mechanism, the soveregnity of a country, that draws a line what can another president do to their people and what they cannot?

What really needs to happen in order to stop this penetration of influence to this degree is to stop the mockery and ridicule of the President of USA. He is being sacrificed and attacked both from within (us) and outside (Putin). If we give him some break and show all nation support Obama could kick some Putin ass back to Georgia even I think!

obvious Child · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

DDD said:
I think what made Putin this bold is that he is feeding on explicit anti-Obama content. He knows that Obama has no support and exploits it to the degree of addressing the people of USA. If this stands and he is more popular and authoritative then Obama then why should the army listen to Obama instead of Putin?

The media has fallen over their heels over Putin, when will the audience, policymakers, and alas the military do also? Where is the internal mechanism, the soveregnity of a country, that draws a line what can another president do to their people and what they cannot?

What really needs to happen in order to stop this penetration of influence to this degree is to stop the mockery and ridicule of the President of USA. He is being sacrificed and attacked both from within (us) and outside (Putin). If we give him some break and show all nation support Obama could kick some Putin ass back to Georgia even I think!

Putin is grasping for whatever power he can grab. The fracking in the US is driving down Russian bargaining power on natural gas. Without that, Russia doesn't have much of a stick/carrot to weld against its neighbors or FSU states. Europe is now being fed by Arab natural gas that used to go to the US. And they're getting it for cheap. Germany no longer has the big problem of being beholden to Ukraine to channel natural gas to its markets. They can simply import it from Italy who imports it from Arab tankers. Russia's power is waning.

I previously made this argument about how getting the US entirely off of gasoline would severely cripple Russia. I did not expect (but should have) that Putin would be an incorrigible prick on the way down.

Some in the military know better than to listen to Putin who has ulterior motives. Putin doesn't care about UN directives and votes. Russia will violate them whenever Putin wants. But Putin knows that the US has a much harder time going rouge and engaging in aggression similar to how Russia invaded and still occupies parts of Georgia. And thus Putin can tweak us. It's sad how many people don't understand this.

Obama never had support from a certain group of the GOP, so they'll always blame him for everything. The Obama Derangement Syndrome is just as prevalent as the Bush Derangement Syndrome. People need to be better informed about just how much of a hypocritical liar Putin is before accepting his words at face value.

DDD · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

obvious Child said:
Putin is grasping for whatever power he can grab. The fracking in the US is driving down Russian bargaining power on natural gas. Without that, Russia doesn't have much of a stick/carrot to weld against its neighbors or FSU states. Europe is now being fed by Arab natural gas that used to go to the US. And they're getting it for cheap. Germany no longer has the big problem of being beholden to Ukraine to channel natural gas to its markets. They can simply import it from Italy who imports it from Arab tankers. Russia's power is waning.

I previously made this argument about how getting the US entirely off of gasoline would severely cripple Russia. I did not expect (but should have) that Putin would be an incorrigible prick on the way down.

Some in the military know better than to listen to Putin who has ulterior motives. Putin doesn't care about UN directives and votes. Russia will violate them whenever Putin wants. But Putin knows that the US has a much harder time going rouge and engaging in aggression similar to how Russia invaded and still occupies parts of Georgia. And thus Putin can tweak us. It's sad how many people don't understand this.

Obama never had support from a certain group of the GOP, so they'll always blame him for everything. The Obama Derangement Syndrome is just as prevalent as the Bush Derangement Syndrome. People need to be better informed about just how much of a hypocritical liar Putin is before accepting his words at face value.

But deal with what you have. If people are so impressionable and would accept a major rivals statements at face value then the media should help the audience understand Putin's ulterior motives. Explain why Putin said which and when so as to serve which Russia's interests! Not just present what he said in all spark and glory!

obvious Child · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

DDD said:
But deal with what you have. If people are so impressionable and would accept a major rivals statements at face value then the media should help the audience understand Putin's ulterior motives.

That doesn't sell newspapers and page clicks. So they don't do it. Ultimately this our own fault. What drives news isn't what needs to be said most of the time.

DDD · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

obvious Child said:
That doesn't sell newspapers and page clicks. So they don't do it. Ultimately this our own fault. What drives news isn't what needs to be said most of the time.

Hence I blame the media for this all. They have been riding on "what is newsworthy to the laypeople" concept so as to increase sales for too long and to the whole countries demise. The media has grown lazy and Putin's RT is growing on this vacuum building greater layers of influence through media such as what we see here.

Peter Grimm · Sep 13, 2013

Re: Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

Yes, he is absolutely correct. Obama is an idiot. We don't need another war.

shrubnose · Sep 13, 2013

aberrant85 said:
In an Op-Ed in the New York Times, Putin bypassed diplomatic channels and spoke directly to the American people.

Among his arguments:

-The UN must be allowed to work.
-Attacking Syria will destabilize the region
-The opposition used chemical weapons, not Assad
-Diplomacy must be used instead of force
-America is not exceptional

How much of his argument holds some water, and how much is BS?

Click to expand...

About 1% of what Putin says holds water, the other 99% is total bull****, he's a Russian dictator, fer crissakes! What do you expect?

He does have a point, but as long as he keeps his hat on, no one will ever know.

Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed? [W:83]

Does Putin Have a Point in his Op-Ed?

Yes he does

He's mostly right, but not on everything

Kinda...not always

Not really

No, stay out of our affairs!

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