Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

talloulou said:

Stay at home moms work as well. I "stay at home" and my number one priority is my kids but I also am in charge of everything that needs to be done around the house and I do paperwork for my husband's company as well.

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Kudos to you. You have my admiration.:bravo:

First off, I agree many women were stuck in bad marriages back in the day when women didn't work outside the family home and weren't educated. However that does not mean that the institution of marriage isn't favorable for children. That doesn't mean that fathers are unnecessary. Far too many women today view their independence as a sign that fathers are altogether unnecessary. The rates of children being born out of wedlock rise even as teen pregnancy rates fall. Women before were stuck in homes that were less than ideal. Now women are "opting" to purposefully put their children in homes that are less than ideal.

And there is no way that the increasing number of children who have no idea where their dad is, or the children who haven't talked to their dad in over a year, or the children who were never told who their dad is are spending more "quality" time with their dad's.

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You're absolutely right.:agree

Originally Posted by OKgrannie
In those times, kids learned what they needed to make their way in life by watching and working along with their parents. They participated in the work at the level where they could contribute. Except for housework and other household upkeep chores, that is not possible today. I believe that smaller families and making sure every child is wanted will guarantee that children are treated BETTER.

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I think that we are agreeing on most of these concepts. :2razz:

OKgrannie said:

Please note that including children in your day and packing them along with you does not guarantee that one is paying more attention to them. Sometimes children get more attention from adults in daycare where activities are planned for the children's benefit.

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This is one of the hugest problems I see with the studies that show working moms spend as much "quality" time with their kids as stay at home moms. It flies in the face of realilty. I assure you if I am feeding my two kids lunch they are getting more attention then if they were 2 kids in a crowded daycare of 20 being fed cafeteria style by "workers." Yet that time isn't counted as quality time. If I'm breastfeeding my baby on demand that baby is getting far more attention than a baby in a daycare. If I'm on the phone and pick up my crying 1 year old that is not viewed as quality time. The idea that the "quality time" is equal between working and non-working moms is total bat $hit brained attempts to undermine the commitment of stay at home moms. No one would argue that 30 kids in an orphanage are getting the same quality of care that 2 kids in a home with a loving mom and dad are getting regardless of how many activities the orphanage plans for the kids, no matter how well fed they are, ect. It implies that kids don't give a rat$ a$$ who feeds them and it doesn't matter to a two year old that mom is folding laundry while they play at mom's feet. According to studies the idea that mom is in "view" of a playing toddler means squat. Well talking toddlers will tell you otherwise. They do love quality time where they are getting all the adult's attention however we shouldn't underestimate the security and well being they feel as they toddle around the house while mom does other things in plain view.

In those times, kids learned what they needed to make their way in life by watching and working along with their parents. They participated in the work at the level where they could contribute. Except for housework and other household upkeep chores, that is not possible today. I believe that smaller families and making sure every child is wanted will guarantee that children are treated BETTER.

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Again with the "wanted" children. More hor$e$hit as it implies that all these millions of fatherless children would be better off dead. Again if you ask those kids the majority will tell you otherwise. Abortion has not ensured that all biologically parents are valuing their children. These kids would be far better off in intact homes with present fathers but that doesn't meant that death is preferable when the ideal is not there.

IMO there is a deteriorating moral climate of America that has everything to do with what we see today regarding the nuclear family. Abortion, sex habits and orientation, promiscuity, suicide, drugs, violence…..all affect the climate. And it certainly seems like the traditional family is a thing of the past or will be shortly if trends keep going the way they are.

“The United States Census in 2000 showed that “2 parent families now represent less than 25% of ALL households in America, down from 45% in 1960.”



Over the same 40 year period the percentage of single-parent families tripled, the divorce rate doubled, the percentage of people getting married all dropped lower than ever before.

Cohabitation increased 1000% and the rate of illegitimacy rose by 500%.
Abortions are performed on 80% who are not married.”

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What do these figures indicate?


These stats are taken from Bill Bennett’s INDEX OF LEADING CULTURAL INDICATORS; AMERICAN SOCIETY AT THE END OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY.

“1. Violent crime up 467% in 40 years
2. The number of state and federal prisoners up 463% in 40 years
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years
4. The number of children living in single parent homes up threefold
5. Out of wedlock births account for 32% of all births nationally-highest rate Washington DC at 64% and lowest rate Utah at 17%\
6. 26% of ALL pregnancies aborted
7. Gonorrhea infection rates of 150 per 100,000
8. Television turned on 7 hours and 12 minutes a day in the average household.

Key social indicators suggest that marriage in America is weakening. Americans have been less likely to marry and more likely to divorce. Marriages are also less happy. They found that 54.6 % of girls and 62% of boys felt that cohabitation was a good idea and that 50% of teens believe that out of wedlock childbearing is now a worthwhile lifestyle.”
They suggest that in 100 years Americans more than likely will marry 4 times and have extramarital affairs with NO public censure. This will be looked at as a conscious evolutionary process.”

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Are any of these positive changes?

It is quite obvious to me whats happened. Secular humanism has taken over. Happiness isn’t what it use to be, that’s for sure. Today….. amorality leads to happiness, especially sexual promiscuity. The family itself and whats good for the family has been replaced by self-gratification and immediate pleasure.


My career, my job, my hobbies, my sexual pleasure, my view of the world……..what I want, what I need, what I can get…………and it doesn’t matter how I get it, just so I am the one who makes out big and that I am the one that is happy, cause its ALL ABOUT ME. Its not about my family, my spouse, my neighbors, my fellow man, my community, my country, my responsibilities and especially my GOD. I am the one that matters FIRST.



Barna is a firm that analyzes American culture and this is what they had to say.

“By a 3-to-1 margin (64% vs. 22%) adults said truth is always relative to the person and their situation. (2002) (For more information, see the Press Release titled "Americans Are Most Likely to Base Truth on Feelings" from Feb 12, 2002)

Percentage of adults who view certain behavior as morally acceptable (2003)
61% of adults view gambling as a morally acceptable behavior.
Enjoying sexual thoughts or fantasies about someone 59%
Living with someone of the opposite sex without being married, sometimes called co-habitation 60%
Having an abortion 45%
Having a sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married 42%
Looking at pictures of nudity or explicit sexual behavior 38%
Using profanity (36%)
Getting drunk (35%)
Having a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex 30%
Using drugs not prescribed by a medical doctor 17%

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http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?

Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=264

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=22

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=38


IMO societies growing acceptance of divorce, premarital cohabitation and sexual openness coupled with increased numbers of female headed households and the lack of good parenting skills, AND ESPECIALLY the lack of morality has led us to where we are today.

Society today for the most part is living without God as its moral center and it certainly shows. IMO this is the big factor explaining how we got this way. We are a modern society in every way and our children are suffering for it. You take God out of the equation and just look what happens.

Having an abortion 45%
Having a sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married 42%
Looking at pictures of nudity or explicit sexual behavior 38%
Using profanity (36%)
Getting drunk (35%)

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How can an abortion possibly be viewed as more morally acceptable than cursing , drinking, or viewing porn?

Thats just f-u-c-k-ed up thinking right there.

talloulou said:

[Percentage of adults who view certain behavior as morally acceptable (2003)
61% of adults view gambling as a morally acceptable behavior.
Enjoying sexual thoughts or fantasies about someone 59%
Living with someone of the opposite sex without being married, sometimes called co-habitation 60%
Having an abortion 45%
Having a sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married 42%
Looking at pictures of nudity or explicit sexual behavior 38%
Using profanity (36%)
Getting drunk (35%)
Having a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex 30%
Using drugs not prescribed by a medical doctor 17%

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How can an abortion possibly be viewed as more morally acceptable than cursing , drinking, or viewing porn?
Thats just f-u-c-k-ed up thinking right there.

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I think this poll is bit screwed up, enjoying sexual fantasies or thoughts about someone was answered acceptable by 59%, and I would be willing to bet it is practiced by 100%. Having a sexual relationship with someone to whom you are not married was answered acceptable by 42% and yet studies show the practice is 95%.

Again with the "wanted" children. More hor$e$hit as it implies that all these millions of fatherless children would be better off dead. Again if you ask those kids the majority will tell you otherwise. Abortion has not ensured that all biologically parents are valuing their children. These kids would be far better off in intact homes with present fathers but that doesn't meant that death is preferable when the ideal is not there.

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Preventing eggs from being fertilized in the first place is the best way to avoid unwanted kids. Abortion is a last resort, not a primary method.

It is quite obvious to me whats happened. Secular humanism has taken over. Happiness isn’t what it use to be, that’s for sure. Today….. amorality leads to happiness, especially sexual promiscuity. The family itself and whats good for the family has been replaced by self-gratification and immediate pleasure.

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The only things affected by "secular humanism" in the list you mentioned were the amount of kids born out of wedlock. Violent crime and prisons have nothing to do with it. First all, many marriages used to be forced and caused even worse problems than having one parent. Single parents must overcome hurdles, but thats nothing compared to 2 parents who hate each other.

My career, my job, my hobbies, my sexual pleasure, my view of the world……..what I want, what I need, what I can get…………and it doesn’t matter how I get it, just so I am the one who makes out big and that I am the one that is happy, cause its ALL ABOUT ME. Its not about my family, my spouse, my neighbors, my fellow man, my community, my country, my responsibilities and especially my GOD. I am the one that matters FIRST.

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That was just a true back then as it was today. People just concealed their motives more. 95% of all adults today had pre-marital sex. They just lied about it back in the day.

61% of adults view gambling as a morally acceptable behavior.[/QUOTE

Gambling is either an entertainment you pay for or an occupation. Sure people often waste money with it, but thats stupid not immoral.

Enjoying sexual thoughts or fantasies about someone 59%

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Uh human beings are designed to do it. Its normal and healthy.

Living with someone of the opposite sex without being married, sometimes called co-habitation 60%

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Ever had a roommate? Even if they are in a relationship, whats wrong with this?

Having an abortion 45%

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Abortion thread is a better place to argue this.

Having a sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married 42%

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Considering 95% of Americans engaged in said behavior, half of them are hypocritical.

Looking at pictures of nudity or explicit sexual behavior 38%

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Looking at porn isn't great, but how does it hurt anybody?

Using profanity (36%)

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What is this, middle school? Swearing just lets you communicate negative feelings. Gosh darn and god damn mean exactly the same thing.

Getting drunk (35%)

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Getting drunk can lead to immoral behavior, but it doesn't have to. Liver probably doesn't like it though.

Having a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex 30%

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Doesn't hurt anybody.

Using drugs not prescribed by a medical doctor 17%

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Again, depends on how you act under the influence of said drugs.

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Originally Posted by doughgirl
IMO there is a deteriorating moral climate of America that has everything to do with what we see today regarding the nuclear family. Abortion, sex habits and orientation, promiscuity, suicide, drugs, violence…..all affect the climate. And it certainly seems like the traditional family is a thing of the past or will be shortly if trends keep going the way they are

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This is what the "Why does Society Hate Families" threads were about and everybody tried to railroad that thread into the ground. Society is becoming more accepting of trends and values that promote, yes PROMOTE, instability and disunity among families and communities.

Grannie said, “Please note that including children in your day and packing them along with you does not guarantee that one is paying more attention to them. Sometimes children get more attention from adults in daycare where activities are planned for the children's benefit”

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But then shipping them off to day care every day doesn’t mean they are getting it there either. Most day cares are full of kids. Do you think every kid in every day care gets quality attention? Quality love and nurturing? Is the day care settting equal to one in the home that parents might provide even if at times they are busy?


I always knew if I was with my parents whether they were busy or not, it was just about being with them that mattered. Being with them physically was important. I knew they cared because they could have shipped me off and payed someone else to watch me. My mother could have worked.

I was blessed however to have a mother who chose to stay at home to take care of us. She had a degree, a career and she chose to stay home.

When I look back, the majority of my friends mothers did the same thing. I think that generation did a lot of self-sacrificing that the present generation is not willing to do, even if its in the childs best interest. Because as a few posters here have pointed out, many parents work whether they have to or not.

So the kids go to day care every day all day, then they get babysitters on weekends or week night when the parents relax and play.


I know that for many families both need to work and that is unfortunate because kids are the ones who suffer. I watch my cousin take her kids to daycare every day. The day care (her company provides) is like a four star resort. She or her husband drops them off at 7 in the morning and picks them up at 5 every night. Sometimes later if she has to work late. This day care is open until 10 at night. They get the best food, play on state of the art jungle gyms, nap on down filled comforters………but does this take the place of parents doing the same things? I don’t think so.

Like I said knowing my mom was just there whether she could give me her undivided attention or not meant a lot. I know some here will laugh but I learned how to cook, clean, sew, wallpaper, paint and manage a household just by watching her. You think that wasn’t an assest when I became a wife and mother? She was my role model, the one I looked to for everything. I still did until she died a few years ago. I wont take her number off my cell phone, I look at it every day and just smile. When I’m depressed, down and out……..I thank the dear Lord for my mother and I take great comfort in remembering the times I spent as a child just being with her. Even though I had a degree and could have sent my kids to day care I chose to stay at home and do the exact same thing my mom did for me. She never considered it a sacrifice. I only started working when my children were in high school. I was totally blessed.

My mom had to share her time between three children. How many kids do most day care workers have to juggle?

I'd probably put more of the blame on dad for 2 parent working families than on moms. The amount of college graduate women is far smaller than the amount of college educated working mothers. If the parent with the best job opportunity worked, then statistically we should have a lot more stay at home dads.

rathi said:

I'd probably put more of the blame on dad for 2 parent working families than on moms. The amount of college graduate women is far smaller than the amount of college educated working mothers. If the parent with the best job opportunity worked, then statistically we should have a lot more stay at home dads.

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Most college educated moms, if married, are married to college educated men. Many of them are opting to stay home and raise their kids. Makes sense to me as they're the ones who "get pregnant" and more and more well off educated moms are breastfeeding which is also something easier done by mom than dad. Personally I think they have the best of both worlds. Since they are educated they will never have to feel "stuck" in a marriage and they are staying home because they want to but are fully capable of taking care of themselves financially if the need to do so arises.

Men are of bigger concern because the number of them earning degrees is dropping. That is a problem because the average degree having woman marries a man with a degree or a man who makes decent money. So what will happen to all these men who aren't getting a decent education? Plus as more and more women become the major breadwinner in the family what then becomes the role for men? Seems to me men are floundering. I suspect it's because such high numbers of men are raised without male role models and aren't shown or taught what it means to be a man.

Most college educated moms, if married, are married to college educated men. Many of them are opting to stay home and raise their kids. Makes sense to me as they're the ones who "get pregnant" and more and more well off educated moms are breastfeeding which is also something easier done by mom than dad. Personally I think they have the best of both worlds. Since they are educated they will never have to feel "stuck" in a marriage and they are staying home because they want to but are fully capable of taking care of themselves financially if the need to do so arises.

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Many women wish to have both careers and children. They would not appreciate you telling them that they should be satisfied staying at home. Why shouldn't women wish for both considered that men have enjoyed them for years?

Plus as more and more women become the major breadwinner in the family what then becomes the role for men?

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They can stay home and take care of the kids then.

Seems to me men are floundering. I suspect it's because such high numbers of men are raised without male role models and aren't shown or taught what it means to be a man.

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Your assumption is that men should be the working parent. That is simply incorrect, as their are far more important factors in determining such a decision than gender.

rathi said:

Many women wish to have both careers and children. They would not appreciate you telling them that they should be satisfied staying at home. Why shouldn't women wish for both considered that men have enjoyed them for years?

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The women with college degrees who are opting to stay home are doing so in large numbers because they want to stay home! They are happiest staying at home! They could work if they wanted too but they don't want to they prefer to stay home. So they find a man as educated as themselves to be the breadwinner.

They can stay home and take care of the kids then.

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Fathers can stay home and some do. But what I am saying is that most women, especially highly educated well off women, actually seem to prefer staying home themselves. Men seem to prefer working.

Your assumption is that men should be the working parent. That is simply incorrect, as their are far more important factors in determining such a decision than gender.

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I'm not meaning to say that. What I am saying is that statistics seem to be showing that women who are highly educated and well off are trending towards a desire to be a "stay at home mom" or a mom that works out of the home. There are men that stay home but women on average seem to prefer to be the one who stays home.

The women with college degrees who are opting to stay home are doing so in large numbers because they want to stay home! They are happiest staying at home! They could work if they wanted too but they don't want to they prefer to stay home. So they find a man as educated as themselves to be the breadwinner.

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That is a completely unsupported statement. Many women would express extreme anger towards such a condescending viewpoint.

Fathers can stay home and some do. But what I am saying is that most women, especially highly educated well off women, actually seem to prefer staying home themselves. Men seem to prefer working.

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And Jews tended to live in Ghettos because they prefered them?

I'm not meaning to say that. What I am saying is that statistics seem to be showing that women who are highly educated and well off are trending towards a desire to be a "stay at home mom" or a mom that works out of the home. There are men that stay home but women on average seem to prefer to be the one who stays home.

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Your assumption is that they stay at home because they want to. The assumption is flawed, because many women are forced to choose between the two. Stay at home dads are quite rare, and very often a woman must pick one or the other. They may choose to stay at home, but that doesn't that don't also want careers. It just means that they are more willing to make sacrifices.

I agree talloulou but this is what they came up with and it indicates obviously what society thinks. And its this logic, this line of thinking that has us where we are today.

People today do not value life. I just heard on television at the noon news that teen suicide was way up.( numbers from the Center for Disease Control) Why?
Why are our teens killing themselves? Why wasnt teen suicide an issue when I was young? Why are the numbers growing?

How can any compassionate loving person, a human being capable of such love also have sides of complete hate for some humans, even the unborn child? I think people know how i feel about abortion so I dotn have to go into it. How can anyone condone the dismemberment of an unborn child. I questions anyones morals who beleives this I'm sorry.

rathi said:

That is a completely unsupported statement. Many women would express extreme anger towards such a condescending viewpoint.

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Right so the trends showing that more and more college educated women are opting to stay home are false? Or are you saying these women are being forced back into their homes against their will??? :roll:

And Jews tended to live in Ghettos because they prefered them?

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Huh??? On so many levels, huh???

Your assumption is that they stay at home because they want to. The assumption is flawed, because many women are forced to choose between the two.

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Yes all women staying home to raise their kids are doing so because they choose to! Certainly noone is forcing them! Perhaps some of the women working are forced to work out of financial necessity but no women are being forced to stay home.

Stay at home dads are quite rare, and very often a woman must pick one or the other. They may choose to stay at home, but that doesn't that don't also want careers. It just means that they are more willing to make sacrifices.

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It still makes it a choice.

Right so the trends showing that more and more college educated women are opting to stay home are false? Or are you saying these women are being forced back into their homes against their will???

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No, they are being forced back into their homes because they do value children more than their careers.

Yes all women staying home to raise their kids are doing so because they choose to! Certainly noone is forcing them! Perhaps some of the women working are forced to work out of financial necessity but no women are being forced to stay home.

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Unless their is a stay at home dad, the woman has no choice but to stay at home. Many women would like both, but are forced to choose between one and the other.

It still makes it a choice.

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Its a bad choice that women shouldn't always have to make. Determining who should work and who should stay at home should be based on who can get the better job, not gender.

An alternative proposal that I like even more if having both parents take part time jobs.

“That is a completely unsupported statement. Many women would express extreme anger towards such a condescending viewpoint.”

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Well I think it’s the truth, more than the feminists would like to admit. I had two degrees and could have done any number of things but chose to stay at home once I had my children. I wanted the best for my children so I put on hold my career ambitions. I had the choice.

I am so glad I did because I was able to be a part of every aspect of my childrens lives. I was blessed to have been there when they were sick, parties at school, field trips, most of their FIRSTS…. I never missed the career because I had it all at home. Are my kids perfect? No. Do they have problems? Sure they do. But they are pretty good human beings, we am so proud of them. Not bragging, but I think what my husband and I did contributed to their successes. Isn't that what parents should do for their children? They are a part of us, we are a part of them. And hopefully should they decide to take on the big responsibility of having children they will do the same.

I’ll say it. Some people should not have children. I am talking about those (both parents) who work the long hours and are never home and because of that they children suffer for it. Children don’t need day care centers……..THEY NEED PARENTS. You don’t have a child only to turn them over to some institution to raise. If your going to be an absentee parent then don’t have children and expect someone else to be giving them what you should be giving them yourself. At least examine the motives behind having children.

Our kids don't live with us now they have their own places. My husband and I have considered getting another dog. But we travel a lot and our plates are still pretty full. Would it be fair to any animal to be left alone day after day? Taking it to board at the vets all the time so we still can travel.......I don't mean to compare kids with pets,,,,,,,but there are some similarities. :rofl
Both need food, warmth, a comfy bed, love and attention, not by some vet assistance.....or day care worker......but by their master or their parents.



I'll get hammered for that statement but it won't be the first time. :rofl

Are my kids perfect? No. Do they have problems? Sure they do. But they are pretty good human beings, we am so proud of them.

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I'll just bet we am.

rathi said:

No, they are being forced back into their homes because they do value children more than their careers.



Unless their is a stay at home dad, the woman has no choice but to stay at home. Many women would like both, but are forced to choose between one and the other.



Its a bad choice that women shouldn't always have to make. Determining who should work and who should stay at home should be based on who can get the better job, not gender.

An alternative proposal that I like even more if having both parents take part time jobs.

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Kids are in school all day from toddlerhood. The last thing they need is some stay-at-home parent hanging over them constantly like a big dead goose, making their lives miserable.
I'm a proud working parent, and I think working parents set a positive example for their kids.
What sort of example are you setting, really, if you're showing your kids that adults don't really have to work if they don't want to?

I've got no problem with SAHMs; everybody's free to do whatever they feel like, as long as it's logistically feasible.
But when they start judging me, there's a problem.
I love to work, which is fortunate, because I have to work, as do most parents.
My kids have learned by example that there's no reason for adults not to work, unless they are invalids and can't work. Being a parent is no reason not to work; in fact, it's a reason to work even harder.
People need external structure to their lives in order to be happy and productive. Work provides that like nothing else I know of.
I would not wish the life of a stay-at-home parent on anyone, although if some stay-at-home parents are happy with their situations, then I'm happy for them.
I only hope that if, at some point in their lives, they wish to re-enter the job market, that'll still be an option.
Otherwise, not working isn't really a "choice" at all, but an imperative; which would suck tremendously.

BodiSatva said:

The New York Times, which based its report on an analysis of census results, said 51 percent of women in 2005 reported living without a spouse, up from 35 percent in 1950 and 49 percent in 2000.

"Coupled with the fact that in 2005 married couples became a minority of all American households for the first time, the trend could ultimately shape social and workplace policies, including the ways government and employers distribute benefits," the newspaper said.

It said that several factors are behind the shift including women marrying at a later age and living with partners for more often and for longer periods. Women are also living longer as widows and once divorced, often opt to stay single, the report said.

Majority of US women living without spouse - Yahoo! News

What is this invisible factor that is leading us down a path of single people, single mothers (voluntary ones at least), dead-beat fathers, etc.? What is it? Why are we seeing less married people and broken or disjointed families more and more?

Yes, this is an extension of the last thread, so for all of you that can't fathom reality to save your life, this should be fun.

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One big 'invisible factor' would probably be skewed data. Many teenage girls as young as 15 were included in the survey, and woman with spouses overseas in the military were counted as "single".

The increase in divorce? Likely, it is that divorce has become more accessable over time. Even in the good old, Ward-at-work, June-at-home, moral days of marrige, the 50s, many seemingly happy wives were trapped in bad marriages, but couldn't get out because of the huge divorce taboo. Back then, you had to have a man in the house to support yourself, and women rushed into relationships that turned out badly, as there was no living with a partner to help you get accustomed to marriage.

What, exactly, is it that people think is so much better about marriage than living with a partner? For many people, marriage is simply an empty certificate and an excuse to live in an approved manner with their partner. When they find out that their partner wasn't their soul mate, they divorce, because they can. If there are kids involved... having a father and mother living apart, and a second set of 'adopted' parents who love them as well, seems like a decent family atmosphere to me.

The world changes. Conservatives try to slow it down. Liberals, the hated selfish child-scarring lunatics attacked on this board, choose to adapt. As soon as people learn to live with divorce and partnerhood, I predict that these institutions will be happily accepted- there is nothing wrong with them except for that they are new.

The upcoming boomer aging and need for energy will require more people worldwide to get jobs. Hopefully, this will trigger an even larger acceptance of working parents, and day-cares in general. I was in daycare since the age of two, and I don't consider myself too messed up.

1069 said:

Kids are in school all day from toddlerhood. The last thing they need is some stay-at-home parent hanging over them constantly like a big dead goose, making their lives miserable.

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What sort of example are you setting, really, if you're showing your kids that adults don't really have to work if they don't want to?

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I'm showing them my priorities.

“I'll just bet we am.”

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What a smart *** you really are. Aways in character......


“I'm a proud working parent, and I think working parents set a positive example for their kids.”


Well of course you do you work. I think many parents who work and CANTboth stay at home do the best they can. Sometimes they have no choice.......BUT then sometimes they can and they dont because being around the kids all day long and doing what they think are meaningless jobs they would rather pay someone else to do it. That is the glamorous thing to do.

Its all about choice and like Talloulou said what you feel are the top priorities in your life. I am really addressing those parents who can make a choice who make enough so that one can stay at home. I am not talking about those that have no alternative they both have to work.

I also know there are wonderful day care centers that offer kids a lot. I also had a friend who ran a day care center from her home. She even admitted that she felt bad for the kids whose parents just dumped them off to not only work but shop, go to the gym etc....the kids get there when its dark outside and get picked up when its dark outside.

I have friends who are both doctors and they are never home. They rake in the big bucks, but they are never home, and I mean never. They live in a huge 6,000 sq ft home, drive fancy cars and are NEVER HOME. Their son was on my sons hockey team. Did they ever come see him play? Not very often. Why do people like this have children?

Whats their top priority? IMO it certainly is not the kids.

“What sort of example are you setting, really, if you're showing your kids that adults don't really have to work if they don't want to?”

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Did you read anything I wrote? Of course not, your always in that pit bull attack mode. I did not have to work if I didn’t want to. My husband made enough that I was not forced to work. However I still had a promising career that I could have persued at the time.

You imply that kids who have one parent at home don’t set good examples that they are not good role models, am I right? But of course I dissagree I think they can be good role models. The parent at home is essentially saying look, I could work but I choose not to because I think being at home, nurturing and teaching kids are more important. I’m giving up more money, more time spent away from home…….to devote to kids.
My husband worked extra hard and worked longer hours to afford me the opportunity to stay at home. They saw how hard he worked to provide us with everything. They saw what we valued first.


I did not mean to imply that all kids do poorly at day care centers, they don’t. But I do not care what you say, if one parent can afford to stay at home IMO its better for the children. And for some parents who have careers that require them to be away for the majority of the time and who both are at work more than they are at home should postpone having children until they can devote time to the little ones that they created.

If anyone is judging its you. To say that unless you’re an invalid, you should work.

“Being a parent is no reason not to work; in fact, it's a reason to work even harder.”

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My husband did work very hard and I did too to provide a home for everyone.

You trivialize that.

And ya know its hard work to stay at home on a daily basis. You make it seem like its spa time. You make it seem that the one at home is stuck there in some prison. You bet its hard. We dont eat out for lunch everyday, we make lunch every day. Oh those spaghetti o's and meatballs. :rofl

“People need external structure to their lives in order to be happy and productive. Work provides that like nothing else I know of.”

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I had external structure 1069. I taught Sunday School and was the children’s choir director at our church.
I volunteered at school working with kids who needed extra help. I headed a group that raised funds for underprivileged kids who needed dentistry and who had special medical needs and I did part time interior design work from my home.

MY KIDS MADE ME HAPPY........LIKE NO JOB COULD EVER HAVE DONE.

“I would not wish the life of a stay-at-home parent on anyone, although if some stay-at-home parents are happy with their situations, then I'm happy for them.”

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That’s really sad but I am not at all surprised that you of all people would feel that way.

1069 is trying to justify her guilt IMO. Not guilt at being a bad mom, I am sure that she is a good mom, the guilt is for not wanting to spend as much time with her kids (waking and functional hours) as with she does with work.

This whole thread is about WHAT IS BEST FOR THE FAMILY AND THE KIDS. You railed everybody in the last one for questioning why parents choose to do other things than be with their kids. Nobody is going off on you for choosing to work instead of stay home and interact with your kids. Why are you going off on moms that choose to make their kids their priority?

"1069 is trying to justify her guilt IMO. Not guilt at being a bad mom, I am sure that she is a good mom, the guilt is for not wanting to spend as much time with her kids (waking and functional hours) as with she does with work."

I think you hit the nail on the head. Some people jsut do not enjoy being around children. And thats fine if they don't have them. I don't think people should have children that know they can't be around. That is not what is best for kids.

"This whole thread is about WHAT IS BEST FOR THE FAMILY AND THE KIDS. You railed everybody in the last one for questioning why parents choose to do other things than be with their kids. Nobody is going off on you for choosing to work instead of stay home and interact with your kids. Why are you going off on moms that choose to make their kids their priority?"

Because that is the way she operates. She never finds fault with her own actions only others.

Bottom line we all want to feel tht what we are doing is right. I justified the abortion I had for years. I made excuses and basically was on the defensive. But sooner or later the truth hit me square in the face and I had to own up. What I did I thought was in the best interest for me. Obviously it was not.
I think many parents should own up to the fact that they just arent there for their kids and why.

IMO no child derserves to be dropped off at day care 5-6 days a week, 8-10 hours a day. I dont care how sweet the day care workers are and how fancy the day care center is. I dont care if Johnny is learning Shakespeare as a preschooler..........kids need to be with their parents the majority of the time.

I am not saying that kids who are shipped out like this dont turn out to be moral and upstanding citizens, I just think they miss out on a lot.

Some people say oh its not the amount of time spent with children its the quality time you spend with them........hogwash.