Should these teens be tried as adults

ChrisL said:

They're pretty much helpless while they're locked up in a facility from the state killing them.

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yeah...almost as helpless as the innocent guy they shot in the back.

OscarB63 said:

whatever....let your heart keep bleeding for these criminals. and then in a few years when they are released from juvie and kill again, be sure to send a sympathy card to the family of their victim.

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They can be locked up. There is absolutely no reason to kill them. Besides, it's apparently illegal to give minors under 18 the DP anyway, so there you go.

OscarB63 said:

yeah...almost as helpless as the innocent guy they shot in the back.

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Exactly, so what makes you any better for killing them?

ChrisL said:

They're pretty much helpless while they're locked up in a facility from the state killing them.

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I agree with you so often on so many issues, but you're just losing me on this one.

ChrisL said:

They can be locked up. There is absolutely no reason to kill them. Besides, it's apparently illegal to give minors under 18 the DP anyway, so there you go.

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I agree, allow them to live out the rest of their punk ass thug life behind bars with all the other murderers.

ChrisL said:

Exactly, so what makes you any better for killing them?

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I haven't killed them.

radcen said:

I agree with you so often on so many issues, but you're just losing me on this one.

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What do you mean? When someone is sentenced to the death penalty, they are a victim of state-sponsored murder. It's really that simple.

And don't even tell me we haven't executed innocent people before either. We could avoid all of these problems with LWOP, meaning until you die in prison and not 35 years. There is really no need to kill them. Like I said earlier, the only ones I would be in favor of allowing DP for would be the most heinous serial killers/mass murderers who are just too far gone.

OscarB63 said:

I haven't killed them.

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But you wish these boys to get the death penalty, or at least you alluded to that in your posts.

ChrisL said:

What do you mean? When someone is sentenced to the death penalty, they are a victim of state-sponsored murder. It's really that simple.

And don't even tell me we haven't executed innocent people before either. We could avoid all of these problems with LWOP, meaning until you die in prison and not 35 years. There is really no need to kill them. Like I said earlier, the only ones I would be in favor of allowing DP for would be the most heinous serial killers/mass murderers who are just too far gone.

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You need to slow down and take a deep breath.

I have already stated... twice... that I do NOT support the DP here. I have stated once that LWOP is the better option.

In my opinion, you are coming off as saying they're not even wholly responsible for their actions because they're "children" and know not what they do. THAT I reject. Don't lump me in with all the others.

ChrisL said:

But you wish these boys to get the death penalty, or at least you alluded to that in your posts.

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wrongo, the vast majority of my posts have been arguing with you over whether or not they are "children". The only post where I alluded to them being killed was when I posted that they should be "lined up and shot....just for fun" (ie, treat them as callously and with the same disregard as they treated their victim)

I clearly stated that since they committed a "big boy" crime, they should go to "big boy" prison.

radcen said:

In my opinion, you are coming off as saying they're not even wholly responsible for their actions because they're "children" an know not what they do. THAT I reject. Don't lump me in with all the others.

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that's my take on it as well.

And another thing, I've been reading through, and it's pretty stupid to make fun of prosecutorial misconduct. It happens a LOT more often than you would like to think. I'm not saying this happened in this case, but is just another reason to be anti death penalty. Just recently in my state there were TWO incidents of misconduct, more to do with the forensic lab employees though.

Prosecutorial Misconduct Cases \| CIP

Prosecutorial Misconduct Statistics:

In their analysis of the causes of wrongful convictions in cases where the conviction was overturned based on new DNA evidence, researchers found that prosecutorial misconduct was a factor in from 36% to 42% of the convictions.

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Oops double post.

ChrisL said:

And another thing, I've been reading through, and it's pretty stupid to make fun of prosecutorial misconduct. It happens a LOT more often than you would like to think. I'm not saying this happened in this case, but is just another reason to be anti death penalty. Just recently in my state there were TWO incidents of misconduct, more to do with the forensic lab employees though.

Prosecutorial Misconduct Cases \| CIP

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they were caught in front of the home of another boy they had threatened to kill because he refused to join their gang, they had the weapon used to kill Chris Lane with them, they implicated themselves in his murder.

prosecutorial misconduct and wrongful conviction are not an issue here.

radcen said:

You need to slow down and take a deep breath.

I have already stated... twice... that I do NOT support the DP here. I have stated once that LWOP is the better option.

In my opinion, you are coming off as saying they're not even wholly responsible for their actions because they're "children" an know not what they do. THAT I reject. Don't lump me in with all the others.

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I'm going as slowly as I possibly can. You said I was "losing you" so I was explaining my position to you again. The Supreme Court has determined that minors are NOT wholly responsible for their actions.

You people need to update your information about minors and the way their minds function.

Supreme Court: Juveniles Cannot Be Subjected To Mandatory Sentences Of Life Without Parole | ThinkProgress

Today, the Supreme Court ruled that juvenile offenders who commit homicide crimes cannot be mandatorily sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The ruling extends the reasoning of a 2009 decision prohibiting the similar sentences for juveniles who commit non-homicide crimes. The decision followed a predictable pattern — it was decided 5-4 — but unlike some recent criminal justice cases, Justice Kennedy sided with the court’s “liberal” justices.

Two factors contribute to the determination that mandatory life without parole sentences for juveniles violate the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment: first, life without parole for a juvenile is like a death sentence, and second, children, who lack maturity and a sense of responsibility, are constitutionally different from adults when it comes to sentencing. Of course, mandatory sentencing schemes do not take into account any characteristics, including age, of defendants.

Recent research on brain development in teenagers backs up the Court’s determination that children are different from adults, particulary when it comes to characteristics that should matter for sentencing: children are more reckless, risk-taking, and impulsive. A report published last year by British scientists, lawyers, and ethicists, argues that emerging understanding of how children’s brains develop should inform how we treat children who commit crimes:

“A number of psychologists have already shown that adolescents are not wholly responsible individuals and are inclined to take risks and behave in irresponsible ways,” said Nicholas Mackintosh, an emeritus professor in the department of experimental psychology at the University of Cambridge and chair of the Royal Society panel. “What neuroscience has shown in the last 10 years is that this is at least associated with the fact that the brain continues to develop throughout adolescence.”

In particular, the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for decision-making, impulse control and cognitive control, is among the slowest parts of the brain to mature and is not fully developed until around the age of 20. “Neuroscience adds to the evidence that a 10 or 12 or 15-year-old does not have a fully adult brain in many important respects,” said Mackintosh.

OscarB63 said:

they were caught in front of the home of another boy they had threatened to kill because he refused to join their gang, they had the weapon used to kill Chris Lane with them, they implicated themselves in his murder.

prosecutorial misconduct and wrongful conviction are not an issue here.

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No ****! That's what I acknowledged if you bothered to read my post. I said I'm talking about reasons to oppose the death penalty in general.

ChrisL said:

And another thing, I've been reading through, and it's pretty stupid to make fun of prosecutorial misconduct. It happens a LOT more often than you would like to think. I'm not saying this happened in this case, but is just another reason to be anti death penalty. Just recently in my state there were TWO incidents of misconduct, more to do with the forensic lab employees though.

Prosecutorial Misconduct Cases \| CIP

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This I would agree with, and mentioned it in my first post in this thread. It is possible that the facts of being bored were actually fed to them and then coerced from them. Not guaranteed, but possible.

ChrisL said:

I'm going as slowly as I possibly can.

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The "slow down" was referencing you lumping me in with others who advocate the DP specifically.

ChrisL said:

“A number of psychologists have already shown that adolescents are not wholly responsible individuals and are inclined to take risks and behave in irresponsible ways,” said Nicholas Mackintosh,
.”
.

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the deliberate planning and commission of an execution of another human being is so far beyond "taking risks and behaving irresponsible" that it is laughable to make such a comparison.

radcen said:

This I would agree with, and mentioned it in my first post in this thread. It is possible that the facts of being bored were actually fed to them and then coerced from them. Not guaranteed, but possible.

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I am as doubtful about that as anyone else, but it certainly does happen.

radcen said:

This I would agree with, and mentioned it in my first post in this thread. It is possible that the facts of being bored were actually fed to them and then coerced from them. Not guaranteed, but possible.

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It's also possible, given new information that has come out, that they gave the "being bored" excuse because they did not want to admit that the killing was part of gang related activity (which would, in many states, confer additional sentencing penalites under "special circumstances")

OscarB63 said:

the deliberate planning and commission of an execution of another human being is so far beyond "taking risks and behaving irresponsible" that it is laughable to make such a comparison.

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This is explaining the way their brains function and to demonstrate that it is a bit different when a minor does this type of act than when a fully grown adult does it. It is not excusing their actions. Why can't you understand and acknowledge that? I've already stated MULTIPLE times that this is not excusing their actions but explaining the differences between minors and adults.

radcen said:

The "slow down" was referencing you lumping me in with others who advocate the DP specifically.

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Well I wasn't, I was just explaining why I'm against it to you because said I lost you. :shrug:

ChrisL said:

No ****! That's what I acknowledged if you bothered to read my post. I said I'm talking about reasons to oppose the death penalty in general.

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I think that the death penalty should only be imposed in cases where there is no doubt as to the guilt of the suspect. ie they are caught in the act or on video or they confess and the physical evidence backs up their confession.

OscarB63 said:

I think that the death penalty should only be imposed in cases where there is no doubt as to the guilt of the suspect. ie they are caught in the act or on video or they confess and the physical evidence backs up their confession.

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There definitely must be evidence to back a confession because there are a lot of nuts out there who have confessed to crimes they didn't actually commit, and it's important to get the "right" guy and not just another notch in a prosecutor's belt.